Kote Gaeshi, Katate Tori or V-lock...

[Buka]

There is a arm clamp sort of position that works quite well.

At about 3:15 he calls it a torsion grip. I used to figure four. But you can fight the gooseneck pretty well from there.

That torsion grip will take a guy down on its own it is some clever business.

You know what I find the biggest drawback to posting a video that's over thirty seconds long? I don't think many take the time to actually watch them, never mind study them and eventually try them out.

Such treasure troves of information, presented in a way to make learning easy to people of the arts, and yet...

A head scratcher.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I always enjoyed this takedown, it came in handy several times over the years. Wally Jay taught me that.

Many years ago, I was walking on the street in Brazil, a group of children followed me. I taught them this "devil's hand shake", they all loved it.

I always like to use both hands to shake my opponent's single hand. People always think that I was too polite.

You know what I find the biggest drawback to posting a video that's over thirty seconds long? I don't think many take the time to actually watch them, never mind study them and eventually try them out.

This is why I don't mind to spend a bit more time to take the technique out of my MP4 file and make it into a GIF file for discussion purpose (I have over 1,000 MP4 files on my computer). This way, if it can save 1 person 1 minutes, I can save 60 persons 1 hour.

 

[skribs]

Most of our arts contain some form of this lock. This is your standard standing wrist lock, where the other guy reaches in, you parry and using the same side hand, grip his hand around the base of the thumb and apply a bent wrist lock.

Example (only given to define which lock I am talking about... the throw part is extra):

In this thread I am hoping we can share and discuss the details of this lock. What are things you commonly seen done incorrectly? And what things do you do to correct those problems?

I will start with one of the most common problems I see when people attempt this lock. One of the problems I commonly see with this lock is that the person doing the lock, tries to make the lock happen outside of their own power zone. The lock is not done on their own centerline, they are reaching either to the side, or way to far forward or bring the lock up near face level. Once they get the lock out side their power zone, it becomes very hard to get enough power to apply the lock... and most of the time, uke is in better balance than tori, thus easily able to resist the lock.

To correct this, I have students parry the reach, apply their grip and then bring uke's wrist to their own belt. The back of uke's hand needs to be against tori's belt, on his centerline. This ensures that uke's balance and structure are compromised and makes it easier for tori to have good structure. Tori can then apply the lock using his hips to directly apply the power to lock. As the student gets better, he can allow space between the hand and the belt... but he must keep the lock on his centerline and about belt level and drive the power through his hip motion.

I would love to hear common problems you guys see and solutions. The idea here is to discuss how to improve the finer details of this common lock, across arts.

The two biggest issues I see when people are learning this:
1. People who try to make this work with just the lock. It will work on some people, but not all. When I execute this lock, I'm moving my feet. I'm moving my feet to enter, I'm moving my feet to take down. The movement may be different depending on the specific entry or direction I'm going (I could step back to pull back, or I could spin around similar to a hip toss).
2. Clicking in the wrong direction. You want to bring the pinky to the base of the wrist near the thumb. Folding straight doesn't quite do it.

 

[drop bear]

I agree with this... but this is a problem that can be addressed. Its a problem of semantics and definitions.

When someone says "wrist locks work" we all think they mean, "I caught the other guys hand out of the air, twisted it around, and the guy went up on his tip toes and begged for mercy." When sensei demonstrated it, thats what happened. When people say that they don't work, they usually mean, that they have never seen sensei's demo happen in MMA.

I had one kid train with me for a while. He was super flexible. You could twist his wrist for days, and he would be able to move with it, so that it didn't hurt him at all. The other students got frustrated, because he kept saying "see, it doesn't work." So, I used him for uke for my next demo for the class. I twisted his wrist around, he moved with it and showed how it didn't hurt. I asked him to hit me as hard as he could. He could reach me with his free hand, just barely. He certainly could not get any power behind it at all. He couldn't kick me, because if he picked up either foot, he would fall. I demonstrated how I could hit him with my free hand, with plenty of power and he had plenty of targets to hit that were unprotected. I could also knee him and kick him. I said to the class, looks like it works pretty good... he can't attack me, but I can damage him or put him on the ground. I wanted everyone to understand that tapping out is not the only working answer. ( I then added in a few extra small details... and lit up his wrist good... his eyes bugged out of his face and he could not tap fast enough... I wanted him to understand, that they can be applied to him as well)

Now, yes, that was another "sensei demo." And yes I set it up a bit. But, the point still stands. If you get a decent grip, and get half way to putting the lock on, and the other guy pulls out of it... it still worked. First, most of the time they will give up their structure, balance or both to escape. There is your opening. Even if you grab for the wrist, and they immediately pull it away, they created an opening. If you have practiced them a lot, you should get familiar with how people move to get out of them and what openings they present while doing so. The second thing to realize is that they can give you the initiative. When you go for the wrist lock and they escape it, they just reacted to you. You now have the initiative to try to keep them reacting to you, instead of you reacting to them.

This works great when sparring with karate students. If I try to immediately hip throw them, they keep their distance and hit me a lot. However, if I grab their wrist, as they hold it out in guard, I never seem to get the lock. But, they do pull it away, and I can follow that in closing distance to get my hip throws in. (I usually just load them up on my hip, both their feet off the floor and pause to let them regroup...) I have also learned to throw punches and kicks behind "failed" wrist lock attempts. A fun combo I find is to start with a "failed" foot sweep. If you surprise them enough and sweep their foot before they pull it away, they usually extend their arms... grab one of the those wrists for a "failed" wrist lock and you can usually have them half way thrown before you ever enter with your hip.

Change your definition of "wrist locks work" to mean "creates movement and openings in the other guy" and you will find that they "work" a lot more. Add to that definition that they "also can give you the initiative," and they work even more often. And, should the opportunity come that you can actually get the lock on, don't pass it up. The look in their face is amazing when you get it right, but you won't see that face too often. See it every time you get the chance

You have to to have better grabs. Generally you need the elbow.

 

[wab25]

Clicking in the wrong direction.

Can you rephrase this? Not sure what you mean by "clicking."

 

[dunc]

Many years ago, I was walking on the street in Brazil, a group of children followed me. I taught them this "devil's hand shake", they all loved it.

I always like to use both hands to shake my opponent's single hand. People always think that I was too polite.


This is why I don't mind to spend a bit more time to take the technique out of my MP4 file and make it into a GIF file for discussion purpose (I have over 1,000 MP4 files on my computer). This way, if it can save 1 person 1 minutes, I can save 60 persons 1 hour.

In my view one of the key problems with how wrist locks are trained is shown in this clip
It is, in practice, very difficult to apply a wrist lock in isolation unless the opponent is completely naive

This clip shows very clearly someone moving their opponent's arm a significant amount before their opponent's structure becomes compromised in any way. The opponent gets a long time to see/feel what's going on and react before the lock is anywhere near to becoming an issue for him

Wrist locks are great and amazingly effective, but they have to be done as part of a broader structural technique for them to work against resistance

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In my view one of the key problems with how wrist locks are trained is shown in this clip
It is, in practice, very difficult to apply a wrist lock in isolation unless the opponent is completely naive

This clip shows very clearly someone moving their opponent's arm a significant amount before their opponent's structure becomes compromised in any way. The opponent gets a long time to see/feel what's going on and react before the lock is anywhere near to becoming an issue for him

Wrist locks are great and amazingly effective, but they have to be done as part of a broader structural technique for them to work against resistance

The lock should always start after the structure is compromised. Even in the stylized versions (what I know as "classical"), the first movement should be used to break structure, before any technique actually begins.

 

[skribs]

Can you rephrase this? Not sure what you mean by "clicking."

That's what we call the shock when th lock sets in. It's like we clicked a switch, both in how suddenly our uke responds, and in how little movement there is between "off" and "on".

 

[wab25]

That's what we call the shock when th lock sets in. It's like we clicked a switch, both in how suddenly our uke responds, and in how little movement there is between "off" and "on".

That must be an emphasis thing. We don't consider the locks to be binary, either on or off. We think of it as a continuum from barely starting to come on to fully damaging the joint. We like to play in the middle.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

in practice, very difficult to apply a wrist lock in isolation unless the opponent is completely naive

This is why when your opponent changes, you should change with him.

When you apply shoulder lock, if your opponent resists, you should change your shoulder lock into elbow lock.

If your opponent wants to

- bends his arm, you help him to bend even more.
- straight his arm, you help him to straight even more.

Always borrow your opponent's resistance and not to against it.

 

[drop bear]

In my view one of the key problems with how wrist locks are trained is shown in this clip
It is, in practice, very difficult to apply a wrist lock in isolation unless the opponent is completely naive

This clip shows very clearly someone moving their opponent's arm a significant amount before their opponent's structure becomes compromised in any way. The opponent gets a long time to see/feel what's going on and react before the lock is anywhere near to becoming an issue for him

Wrist locks are great and amazingly effective, but they have to be done as part of a broader structural technique for them to work against resistance

Once you start understanding things like clinch control underhooking arm snaps and the like. The wrist locks begin to work.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In the following clip, you can see that every locking can be counter. When your opponent changes, you change with him.

 

[dunc]

This is why when your opponent changes, you should change with him.

When you apply shoulder lock, if your opponent resists, you should change your shoulder lock into elbow lock.

If your opponent wants to

- bends his arm, you help him to bend even more.
- straight his arm, you help him to straight even more.

Always borrow your opponent's resistance and not to against it.

I agree with this in principle
However, in practice it still requires you to have a significant advantage in terms of control over your opponent (&/or it has to be a small movement)
The clip you shared here is another example of a lock being applied without this control
Again the opponent’s arm is moved over 180 degrees, with a change in grip before it gets to the point where it starts to affect his structure