Unarmed Florida Teen Shot

[billc]

Some thoughts from Allen Dershowitz...

http://hotair.com/archives/2012/04/...nethical-and-will-never-make-it-past-a-judge/

Four and a half minutes of brutal criticism for prosecutor Angela Corey, whom he accuses straight-out of grandstanding for political gain. It’ll take you 30 seconds to read the entire charging instrumentbut I’ll save you 20 and post the critical bit:

Second-degree murder under Florida law is defined as:

The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual
​

Dershowitz’s point: There’s nothing in the charging instrument that suggests probable cause to believe Zimmerman had a “depraved mind regardless of human life” when he shot Martin. On the contrary, he notes, the facts as stated are consistent with self-defense. (Tellingly, there’s also no reference to Zimmerman’s injuries.) The prosecution can amend the affidavit to strengthen its case if the judge throws it out, but then you’re left wondering why they didn’t submit a more detailed affidavit in the first place.

The video of Dershowitz...

http://realclearpolitics.com/video/...st_affidavit_irresponsible_and_unethical.html

“Most affidavits of probable cause are very thin. This is so thin that it won’t make it past a judge on a second degree murder charge,” Dershowitz said. “There’s simply nothing in there that would justify second degree murder.” (via Mediaite)

 

[WC_lun]

Really? Cause i know we do investigations everyday without the media making up lies to force us to charge people

Let me clarify then, it does take a very squeeky wheel to get an investigation going that has already stalled.

 

[ballen0351]

Let me clarify then, it does take a very squeeky wheel to get an investigation going that has already stalled.

Or people can just be patient and let the police and attys do their jobs. Hard to get work done when you have people shooting up police cars and blocking the entrance to the police dept or when you have hundreds of reportera camped out at your station

 

[Master Dan]

I like what the prosecutor said today the 2nd degree murder charge is based on profiling and it is very clear on tape that his comments were in fact profiling the kid and his motives on ignoring orders to not pursue and stay in the car and pusuit with a gun was motivated by his comments they always get away with it Punk is up to no good ect. He took a gun to a skittles fight and killed a minor far worse that having regrets about past racial slurs.

However I think no matter how much the Prosecutor likes to gloss over that no pulbic presure had anything todo with thier proceedures in this cass yeh right??? why was she in front fo the cameras again today at the arainment which she never does in routine cases???

Reminds me of tricky Dick saying he was not a crook??

 

[granfire]

So now These is a racist term. Wow all that time when the bad guys on scobby do said i would have gotten away with it if it werent for these kids i had no idea that were racists. Thanks for teaching me.

And everytime i tell my wife these kids are driving me nuts today i was being racist. Because these could never had referred to something simple like these teenagers or these traspassers or these punks it MUST have ment these black people right.

No, not racist.
Prejudicial.
You know when 'they' come into play logical argument takes a second seat to preconceived stereotypes.
Same happens when our friend billi starts in on 'them' lefties and commies...

 

[Wo Fat]

I like what the prosecutor said today the 2nd degree murder charge is based on profiling and it is very clear on tape that his comments were in fact profiling the kid and his motives on ignoring orders to not pursue and stay in the car and pusuit with a gun was motivated by his comments they always get away with it Punk is up to no good ect. He took a gun to a skittles fight and killed a minor far worse that having regrets about past racial slurs.

However I think no matter how much the Prosecutor likes to gloss over that no pulbic presure had anything todo with thier proceedures in this cass yeh right??? why was she in front fo the cameras again today at the arainment which she never does in routine cases???

Reminds me of tricky Dick saying he was not a crook??

Agree with the first paragraph. And yet, if there was no public pressure whatsoever, then there would have been zero actions taken beyond taking the Profiler/Shooter at his word. There would have been zero follow-up investigations.

Without public pressure, Trayvon Martin's shooting would have been no different than a man shooting a bear in his yard. A few perfunctory questions; sign here; have a nice day, sorry for the inconvenience.

Mr. Martin was a human being who had every legal (and moral) right to be where he was. He left the house and walked through the neighborhood to go to the store ... and he did so without incident or cause for suspicion. Sound logic dictates that he was coming back into the neighborhood equally as peaceful. He did not deserve to be shot to death.

 

[ballen0351]

The only problem I see with all this is we have a justice system set up the way it is for a reason. Good or Bad it works how it works. If now all we need is a few protests, a few media lies, to get what we want there is no reason for the system anymore. Its like judge shopping. When I was a detective and others in my unit would write Search Warrants that were kinda weak on Prob. Cause they would judge shop. They would go from judge to judge to judge until one of them would actually sign it. I always felt that was wrong. The process is supposed to work by going into the court house looking for the assigned desk duty judge for that day and that who gets all the search warrants for that day. Good or bad thats the judge you see. To then judge shop to me breaks down the process and in my opinon weakens your case and if God forbid something happened when we served the warrant and someone got killed I feel Id be responsibile because I judge Shopped instead of going off my facts I fould a judge that just wanted to leave early to play golf so they dont even read it they just sign it as they are leaving the court house. Same goes for the prosecutor in this case. The local prosecutor gets the case it is his/her call. If they decide no charges then good or bad thats they way it goes. If now when ever the people decide we dont like that answer we want to shop around and apply so much pressuse until we get someone to come up with charges to shut people up thats bad. Its Bad because we the people dont have the FACTS we have 2 to 3 min news stories that were often conflicting. They site in the charging documents that Martins mother identifed the crys for help as her son but left out the part that the father said it was not his son. Little errors like that make our justice system less about Justice and more about revenge. It also sets a bad example for the next time which may not be so cut and dry as this one appears to be and an innocent person could be wrongfully arrested and convicted because of Mob Rule which is the type of thing our system is supposed to prevent. It may workout ok this time but what about the next time?

 

[WC_lun]

I see your point and I can't say I completely disagree with it. I do think the justice system is run by human beings and sometimes that means things break down. In those cases it takes people willing to be loud and create a stir to get things moving again. This particular case did not happen in a vaccumn. Trayvan Martin is not the first young black man to be killed using the no retreat law as justification. In many of those previous cases there was little follow up investigation. I don't blame that all on police, but I can see where the family feared the same thing would happen again.

Ballen, I do have to give you props for not taking the easy way on your investigations and doing the work neccesary to get a solid case. If only more people would do the same in both thier personal lives and work the world would be a much better place.

 

[oftheherd1]

Agree with the first paragraph. And yet, if there was no public pressure whatsoever, then there would have been zero actions taken beyond taking the Profiler/Shooter at his word. There would have been zero follow-up investigations.

Without public pressure, Trayvon Martin's shooting would have been no different than a man shooting a bear in his yard. A few perfunctory questions; sign here; have a nice day, sorry for the inconvenience.

Mr. Martin was a human being who had every legal (and moral) right to be where he was. He left the house and walked through the neighborhood to go to the store ... and he did so without incident or cause for suspicion. Sound logic dictates that he was coming back into the neighborhood equally as peaceful. He did not deserve to be shot to death.

Police are usually as human as the rest of us, and usually want to see justice done. But there can be many reasons for an investigation stalling or no longer receiving full attention. Since we don't know what the reason was, I for one won't criticize when I don't know what I am criticizing.

And while I agree it is sad young Mr. Martin is dead, and I don't know enough facts to say Mr. Zimmerman's actions were right or wrong, I can tell you that sound logic is not something all humans follow, and certainly not crooks. I'm not saying Mr. Martin was a crook, but when a policeman looks at something he thinks may be suspicious, logic isn't going to be his mainstay (and no, Mr. Zimmerman wasn't a policeman, but there are some indications he may have been a wannabe).

The only problem I see with all this is we have a justice system set up the way it is for a reason. Good or Bad it works how it works. If now all we need is a few protests, a few media lies, to get what we want there is no reason for the system anymore. Its like judge shopping. When I was a detective and others in my unit would write Search Warrants that were kinda weak on Prob. Cause they would judge shop. They would go from judge to judge to judge until one of them would actually sign it. I always felt that was wrong. The process is supposed to work by going into the court house looking for the assigned desk duty judge for that day and that who gets all the search warrants for that day. Good or bad thats the judge you see. To then judge shop to me breaks down the process and in my opinon weakens your case and if God forbid something happened when we served the warrant and someone got killed I feel Id be responsibile because I judge Shopped instead of going off my facts I fould a judge that just wanted to leave early to play golf so they dont even read it they just sign it as they are leaving the court house. Same goes for the prosecutor in this case. The local prosecutor gets the case it is his/her call. If they decide no charges then good or bad thats they way it goes. If now when ever the people decide we dont like that answer we want to shop around and apply so much pressuse until we get someone to come up with charges to shut people up thats bad. Its Bad because we the people dont have the FACTS we have 2 to 3 min news stories that were often conflicting. They site in the charging documents that Martins mother identifed the crys for help as her son but left out the part that the father said it was not his son. Little errors like that make our justice system less about Justice and more about revenge. It also sets a bad example for the next time which may not be so cut and dry as this one appears to be and an innocent person could be wrongfully arrested and convicted because of Mob Rule which is the type of thing our system is supposed to prevent. It may workout ok this time but what about the next time?

I agree with what you say in general. However, knowing what you said and agreeing we just need to sit back and hope isn't always a solution either. Not in my book anyway. If someone causes me to have to reshift focus by becoming a squeeky wheel, I may not like it, but I will try to understand from their perspective. If the reason is something I am at liberty to tell them about, that might be all that is needed. Then they know they and the victim aren't being forgotten or marginalized. It's not an easy position for the effected person or the police either. But both will have to get through it as best they can. That is also how it works (or should in my opinion).

But I do understand what you are trying to say, and am not in total disagreement.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Martin had every legal right to be where he was. So did Zimmerman. When the two came in contact with each other, something happened and it led to a physical struggle on the ground. What that something was, we do not know, but we know the outcome; Martin was shot and killed by Zimmerman.

Without public pressure, it is possible that the entire situation would have ended with a finding that Zimmerman defended himself legally; that is his claim, and there is little (even in the charge sheet that I can see) that contradicts that. That does not mean he is telling the truth; it means we don't have much else in the way of information to know what really happened.

With public pressure, it is possible that charges were brought forth on Zimmerman which would not have been brought otherwise. Now there will be a deeper level of scrutiny from the court, and the state will have to prove its case in court, presuming that Zimmerman's case is not simply dismissed by a judge in a separate self-defense hearing, as provided for under Florida law.

If he is found guilty and sent to prison, many will claim justice has been done; but we may end up knowing little or nothing more about what really happened than we do now. Alternatively, new information may become available that the police and prosecutors know which has not yet been made public, and it may show that Zimmerman was lying. If he has charges against him dismissed prior to trial, or if the state fails to make its case and he is found not guilty, many will claim justice was not done.

With or without public pressure, many will claim, rightly or wrongly, that the outcome is not correct; no matter what the outcome is.

I will say that in my opinion, public pressure is a double-edged sword. It can shed light on bad situations and force corrections. It can also force people to behave in ways they otherwise would not, to the detriment of justice. We do not know at this time which this public pressure has wrought. And we may not know afterwards, either.

Most who should be ashamed of themselves never will be. If Zimmerman is found guilty and goes to prison, they will be happy; and the fact of his guilt or innocence will be utterly irrelevant. That's how populist anger works. The issue is not whether Zimmerman is actually guilty or innocent to them; if he is guilty of course he should to to prison. But if he is not, the angry mob will not care; they want punishment and retribution, not justice. They seek blood, not a fair trial. And nothing else will satisfy them. I hope those of you to whom this applies like the taste of it. Your lot in life is to be a tool of others, congratulations.

If you're not sure if you're a tool, ask yourself this; if Zimmerman is tried and found not guilty, will you be satisfied with the verdict and willing to move on with your life, or will this remain a thorn in your side and proof to you that the system is racist and a murderer walked away scot-free? If the latter, yeah, that's you.

 

[Wo Fat]

And while I agree it is sad young Mr. Martin is dead, and I don't know enough facts to say Mr. Zimmerman's actions were right or wrong, I can tell you that sound logic is not something all humans follow, and certainly not crooks. I'm not saying Mr. Martin was a crook, but when a policeman looks at something he thinks may be suspicious, logic isn't going to be his mainstay (and no, Mr. Zimmerman wasn't a policeman, but there are some indications he may have been a wannabe).

To your point, if you don't know enough of the facts to determine Zimmerman's actions, that's OK. The Prosecution is on the case and they've investigated the facts for you (and me, the Martin family, and the State of Florida). And the Prosecution has determined that Zimmerman's actions were very wrong.

I agree that police officers are human and subject to good judgment and good deeds, as well as bad judgment and bad deeds. And if we left it up to the police to act as on-the-spot jurists, then we get closer to a police state. So it is that our justice system has built-in checks and balances. It's a damn shame that our society had to publicly protest and agitate for simple checks and balances, but that's American society -- for good and bad.

 

[granfire]

To your point, if you don't know enough of the facts to determine Zimmerman's actions, that's OK. The Prosecution is on the case and they've investigated the facts for you (and me, the Martin family, and the State of Florida). And the Prosecution has determined that Zimmerman's actions were very wrong.

I agree that police officers are human and subject to good judgment and good deeds, as well as bad judgment and bad deeds. And if we left it up to the police to act as on-the-spot jurists, then we get closer to a police state. So it is that our justice system has built-in checks and balances. It's a damn shame that our society had to publicly protest and agitate for simple checks and balances, but that's American society -- for good and bad.

The state of florida might just ahve concluded that Mr Zimmerman is best served if he is in jail, not because of guild or innocence but because of the media frenzy.

And sadly, the martin family lit the fire on that fuse.

 

[Wo Fat]

Most of those who presume that the pursuit and outcomes of American justice is always neutral and blind, should be ashamed of themselves for their naivete and willful ignorance of American judicial history--especially within their own lifetime. There are have been open and unsolved cases of murders of innocent Americans who were determined not worthy of justice. When small segments of the public demanded justice--meaning an actual thorough, honest, and above-board investigation of bombings, murders and other violent acts--they were accused of wanting "blood". And when the obvious killers were acquitted or not charged at all, it was the checks and balance of the federal government that did what the local governments would not do. This kind of thing is not just history, it's precedent.

Many Americans today could care less if certain people resent the fact that pursuers of justice won't "shut up" on demand. Count me among those Americans. When the killers of Emmett Till, Mickey Goodman, James Chaney, Michael Schwerner, Denise McNair, Medgar Evers, among others, were acquitted and remained free for decades, many people approved with the way the system worked.

But justice no longer needs those people's permission or approval.

 

[granfire]

What are you implying?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I'm coming to the realization that I'm tired of outrage. I'm tired of populist anger. I'm tired of protests and screaming and yelling and wearing hoodies and Guy Fawkes masks and demands for this and for that. People run from one popular outrage to the next, whipped by the pandering media and I'm talking about on the left and the right. Is there injustice in the world? Yes. Is there racism and bigotry? Yes. But it's all gone too far. Shooting up police cars, black separatists issuing 'dead or alive' bounties, white separatists patrolling the streets with bad intent, it's time all ya'll morons sit down, shut up, and let justice do what it does. Enough hate, enough threats, and definitely enough gunplay. Not one of you knows what happened in the moments before Zimmerman pulled that trigger; and neither do I. So all of our opinions on what occurred are worth precisely dick.

 

[granfire]

I'm coming to the realization that I'm tired of outrage. I'm tired of populist anger. I'm tired of protests and screaming and yelling and wearing hoodies and Guy Fawkes masks and demands for this and for that. People run from one popular outrage to the next, whipped by the pandering media and I'm talking about on the left and the right. Is there injustice in the world? Yes. Is there racism and bigotry? Yes. But it's all gone too far. Shooting up police cars, black separatists issuing 'dead or alive' bounties, white separatists patrolling the streets with bad intent, it's time all ya'll morons sit down, shut up, and let justice do what it does. Enough hate, enough threats, and definitely enough gunplay. Not one of you knows what happened in the moments before Zimmerman pulled that trigger; and neither do I. So all of our opinions on what occurred are worth precisely dick.

Yes.

 

[MJS]

Martin had every legal right to be where he was. So did Zimmerman. When the two came in contact with each other, something happened and it led to a physical struggle on the ground. What that something was, we do not know, but we know the outcome; Martin was shot and killed by Zimmerman.

Without public pressure, it is possible that the entire situation would have ended with a finding that Zimmerman defended himself legally; that is his claim, and there is little (even in the charge sheet that I can see) that contradicts that. That does not mean he is telling the truth; it means we don't have much else in the way of information to know what really happened.

With public pressure, it is possible that charges were brought forth on Zimmerman which would not have been brought otherwise. Now there will be a deeper level of scrutiny from the court, and the state will have to prove its case in court, presuming that Zimmerman's case is not simply dismissed by a judge in a separate self-defense hearing, as provided for under Florida law.

If he is found guilty and sent to prison, many will claim justice has been done; but we may end up knowing little or nothing more about what really happened than we do now. Alternatively, new information may become available that the police and prosecutors know which has not yet been made public, and it may show that Zimmerman was lying. If he has charges against him dismissed prior to trial, or if the state fails to make its case and he is found not guilty, many will claim justice was not done.

With or without public pressure, many will claim, rightly or wrongly, that the outcome is not correct; no matter what the outcome is.

I will say that in my opinion, public pressure is a double-edged sword. It can shed light on bad situations and force corrections. It can also force people to behave in ways they otherwise would not, to the detriment of justice. We do not know at this time which this public pressure has wrought. And we may not know afterwards, either.

Most who should be ashamed of themselves never will be. If Zimmerman is found guilty and goes to prison, they will be happy; and the fact of his guilt or innocence will be utterly irrelevant. That's how populist anger works. The issue is not whether Zimmerman is actually guilty or innocent to them; if he is guilty of course he should to to prison. But if he is not, the angry mob will not care; they want punishment and retribution, not justice. They seek blood, not a fair trial. And nothing else will satisfy them. I hope those of you to whom this applies like the taste of it. Your lot in life is to be a tool of others, congratulations.

If you're not sure if you're a tool, ask yourself this; if Zimmerman is tried and found not guilty, will you be satisfied with the verdict and willing to move on with your life, or will this remain a thorn in your side and proof to you that the system is racist and a murderer walked away scot-free? If the latter, yeah, that's you.

It'll certainly be interesting to see how the court case plays out. I'm sure this will prove to be very difficult, as the only one who really knows what happened, is Zimmerman. Of course, what I do find interesting, is what you said about the public pressure. Amazing how we tend to see that alot, and usually only on one side of the coin. In other words, if a black male shot/killed a white male, why od you not see the same battle cries that we see here?

No, GZ shouldn't be arrested because a group of people eager to act like *******s and riot say so. It should be because he was found guilty....if thats what they indeed end up finding.

 

[ballen0351]

To your point, if you don't know enough of the facts to determine Zimmerman's actions, that's OK. The Prosecution is on the case and they've investigated the facts for you (and me, the Martin family, and the State of Florida). And the Prosecution has determined that Zimmerman's actions were very wrong.

.

So when the 1st prosecutor looked at the Facts and didnt find an outcome to your liking why was that not ok? And if the new prosecutor had decided there still was not enough evidence to bring charges you were already spouting off about the Justice Department stepping in and charging Zimmerman. So you dont care about the Facts you only care that Zimmerman was charged.

 

[ballen0351]

Im interested in seeing where they will hold the trial and how will they find a Jury that has not already made up its mind. The president of the United States already made comments about the case and every lvl of Govt below him, you had congressmen thrown out for wearing a hoodie in congress and sports star and movie stars making comments and tweets, protests across the country. Im not sure how he gats a fair trial.

 

[granfire]

It'll certainly be interesting to see how the court case plays out. I'm sure this will prove to be very difficult, as the only one who really knows what happened, is Zimmerman. Of course, what I do find interesting, is what you said about the public pressure. Amazing how we tend to see that alot, and usually only on one side of the coin. In other words, if a black male shot/killed a white male, why od you not see the same battle cries that we see here?

No, GZ shouldn't be arrested because a group of people eager to act like *******s and riot say so. It should be because he was found guilty....if thats what they indeed end up finding.

Now, the question will be can they find 12+ people in the state who have not yet been poisoned by the media to objectively do jury duty in this case?
Or in the country?