UK Photographer Gets Harrassed For Photography; Funny Exchange

[Bob Hubbard]

Correct. Which is why I agreed with you in that it would have been polite to do so, but not legally required. Nor is he legally required to stop just because someone asked/ordered. Not his fault the factory hires uninformed guards, or seeks to make up nonexistent laws.

I liked the part where the guard encouraged a passerby to run him over. I'm sure that was polite? (ok, in parts of NYC that actually might be a mating ritual, I dunno, lol)

 

[Tez3]

Correct. Which is why I agreed with you in that it would have been polite to do so, but not legally required. Nor is he legally required to stop just because someone asked/ordered. Not his fault the factory hires uninformed guards, or seeks to make up nonexistent laws.

I liked the part where the guard encouraged a passerby to run him over. I'm sure that was polite? (ok, in parts of NYC that actually might be a mating ritual, I dunno, lol)

Lincolnshire is a very strange place, the residents are called Lincolnshire Yellowbellies.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/lincolnshire/asop/people/what_is_a_yellowbelly.shtml

"If there's one thing you can say about true yellowbellies it's that they're an argumentative lot. The easiest way to prove this is to ask them where the name 'yellowbelly' came from. Chances are every single person you ask will have a slightly different version of events. So here for your enlightenment and delight are a few of the most common stories."

The security guard is what you get when you pay £3 an hour, that's $1.50 in your money, so what did anyone expect? A job however is a job and working 60 hour weeks to try to earn a living when I expect she'd be better off on the dole has to say something about her willingness to work in these dark days. There's ignorance everywhere and there's more than her in that video, winding someone up just because you can is as ignorant as you can get, winding someone up who 'can't help it' as we say here and inviting people to laugh at her is a sad thing to do. I think it says more about the photographer than the security guard to be honest. It's not about 'rights' it's watching someone making a fool of themselves and inviting others to mock her ignorance. The bigger person would have walked away and taken up the issue in a civilised manner.

 

[oftheherd1]

...

exploiting it and waving the loophole in someone's face when they are only doing their job.
..

My working life has been full of maggots like this, causing confrontation and abrasion for the sake of it, rather than working together. I might sound like a bit of a hippy, but why do people fail to co-operate so often? It's not that hard.

I think your choice of words, saying "loophole" was a poor one sir. Not violating a non-existant law is not exploiting a loophole. Why would a person not want to defend their right under the law, assuming UK laws are similar to US law?

I can't say whether or not the photographer was intentionally trying to make a scene as you and Tez3 suggest. But since he appears to be perfectly within the law, and those who are trying to get him to stop, would then be in violation of law, it is difficult for me to be sympathetic towards them.

jks9199 - If you were called to the scene, and the security guards had told you they feared he might be taking photos if furtherance of industrial or state espionage, what would you do? Without proof, or reasonable suspicion, and you can identify no law the photographer is breaking, you can't do anything either, other than at most, identifying him and making out a contact report. And you would probably be wise to do the same with the security guards, as they are the ones causing a disturbance. All this from what we can see of the video. We don't know what if anything happened before or after the video.

 

[Tez3]

What we can't see is where the photographer is in relation to the building. He states he was on the public highway taking photos but looking at the video it seems as if he's moved to the property of the company.
Here there is the law and the spirit of the law both of which are taken into consideration by judges and magistrates. The law says he can take photographs but if he's breaking the spirit of the law by deliberately baiting the security guard by his actions they will both be seen to be guilty. Industrial espionage is a civil offence, nothing to do with the police,the most you can call them out for is distrubing the peace or threatening behaviour if it were starting to get nasty. Nobody would see taking photos of a crisp manufacturer's building as state espionage. If it were a 'secret' defence building they'd call us, if it were a 'secret' government building it would be Special Branch.

I wonder how people would feel if a photographer insisted on standing outside their house photographing it and everyone coming in and out? Perfectly legal but how would people feel if their family were being photographed in this way?

I don't feel sorry for anyone in the video, I think they are all a bunch of numpties, no one is 'right' just because the law allows something. Spitting in the street isn't illegal here but would you want everyone doing it? This isn't a matter of photographers rights, it's an idiot picking on someone who doesn't know any better just to make a silly video and invite people to laugh at her while saying look how daring I am. If the photographer wanted to make a point about photographer's freedoms let him pick a subject which would have real concern rather than some hapless security guard who has no idea, it's totally lame.

 

[Gnarlie]

I think your choice of words, saying "loophole" was a poor one sir. Not violating a non-existant law is not exploiting a loophole. Why would a person not want to defend their right under the law, assuming UK laws are similar to US law?

OK, you're right, maybe not a loophole, but I was struggling to find the right words - what he's doing, standing on the public property and photographing the private property, is the legal equivalent of dancing around someone, waving your hands near their face and singing 'not touching, can't get mad' over and over again. Yes he's within his rights, but he's behaving like a bit of a tool really. OK, I'm all for defending our civil rights and freedoms, but not if it impinges on the freedoms of others. Each person's freedom ends where someone elses begins. That's respect, and the mark of a civilised society. He could have gotten his photos without ruining anyones day.

 

[jks9199]

Lincolnshire is a very strange place, the residents are called Lincolnshire Yellowbellies.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/lincolnshire/asop/people/what_is_a_yellowbelly.shtml

"If there's one thing you can say about true yellowbellies it's that they're an argumentative lot. The easiest way to prove this is to ask them where the name 'yellowbelly' came from. Chances are every single person you ask will have a slightly different version of events. So here for your enlightenment and delight are a few of the most common stories."

The security guard is what you get when you pay £3 an hour, that's $1.50 in your money, so what did anyone expect? A job however is a job and working 60 hour weeks to try to earn a living when I expect she'd be better off on the dole has to say something about her willingness to work in these dark days. There's ignorance everywhere and there's more than her in that video, winding someone up just because you can is as ignorant as you can get, winding someone up who 'can't help it' as we say here and inviting people to laugh at her is a sad thing to do. I think it says more about the photographer than the security guard to be honest. It's not about 'rights' it's watching someone making a fool of themselves and inviting others to mock her ignorance. The bigger person would have walked away and taken up the issue in a civilised manner.

It's off topic -- but are you sure about the wages? Is that actually a living wage? Where I live & work, unarmed guards earn around $10 to $15 per hour, depending on whether their job requires a clearance (a mall rent-a-cop is paid less than the guy guarding the door of a federal contractor who needs to have a security clearance). At the bottom end, it's tough but probably barely livable. Health insurance and other benefits, if offered, will be deducted from that pay. Figure a take-home loosely equivalent to about $7 to $12. IN VA, an unarmed guard needs 24 hours of training to get a license. (There are exemptions, but lets leave it simple.)

 

[Bob Hubbard]

What we can't see is where the photographer is in relation to the building. He states he was on the public highway taking photos but looking at the video it seems as if he's moved to the property of the company.

Are the walkways / sidewalks along the street public or private property in the UK? In the US it's public right of way.
A few minutes on Google Maps shows relative positions.

Here there is the law and the spirit of the law both of which are taken into consideration by judges and magistrates. The law says he can take photographs but if he's breaking the spirit of the law by deliberately baiting the security guard by his actions they will both be seen to be guilty. Industrial espionage is a civil offence, nothing to do with the police,the most you can call them out for is distrubing the peace or threatening behaviour if it were starting to get nasty. Nobody would see taking photos of a crisp manufacturer's building as state espionage. If it were a 'secret' defence building they'd call us, if it were a 'secret' government building it would be Special Branch.

True, but the police are better positioned to determine that, not a low income rent-a-cop. (Anyway, how can they get away with paying so little? In the US we have a minimum wage law (which I oppose btw) that sets min-wage at at least $5/hr. In NY it's $7.25/hr)

I wonder how people would feel if a photographer insisted on standing outside their house photographing it and everyone coming in and out? Perfectly legal but how would people feel if their family were being photographed in this way?

Happens all the time. I've had my house photographed in fact by one of our now banned former members. Photos were sent to me as a 'suggestion' I reverse the ban. That got forwarded to his superior and resolved. But it's legal (the photos not the threat). Annoys me but I 'get it'.

I don't feel sorry for anyone in the video, I think they are all a bunch of numpties, no one is 'right' just because the law allows something. Spitting in the street isn't illegal here but would you want everyone doing it? This isn't a matter of photographers rights, it's an idiot picking on someone who doesn't know any better just to make a silly video and invite people to laugh at her while saying look how daring I am. If the photographer wanted to make a point about photographer's freedoms let him pick a subject which would have real concern rather than some hapless security guard who has no idea, it's totally lame.

He didn't set out to embarrass anyone. He covered his *** based on previous encounters. You did read the accompanying articles right?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

OK, you're right, maybe not a loophole, but I was struggling to find the right words - what he's doing, standing on the public property and photographing the private property, is the legal equivalent of dancing around someone, waving your hands near their face and singing 'not touching, can't get mad' over and over again. Yes he's within his rights, but he's behaving like a bit of a tool really. OK, I'm all for defending our civil rights and freedoms, but not if it impinges on the freedoms of others. Each person's freedom ends where someone elses begins. That's respect, and the mark of a civilised society. He could have gotten his photos without ruining anyones day.

The guard and her supervisor could also have not made up fake laws to try to intimidate, then gotten rude when he called their bluff. They set the confrontational tone. When you tell me 'its against the law', you better be able to tell me which one. I'll look it up right then and there on my new-capable phone. This is more true of a real cop (cite the code your refer to) than a civi.

 

[Tez3]

Looking at where the photographer is marked on the picture, he was on private property not the road as you look at the arrow point the pavement is to the right of it, the photographer is to the left which will make it not the pavement. Colin Road I assume is a public road though it may be unadopted which means that too belongs to those who have property along it.
Security guards here aren't 'rent a cops' they are what they say they are, security guards, no one regards them as anything other than that, they are not connected to the police in any way and it's basic pay, minimum pay here for is just over £5 an hour, after tax and NI it will be about £3 take home. The hours are 60 at least per week to make anything decent, if you have children you may be able to get tax credits which will bump your pay up plus family allowance for each child but if you get £3 an hour out of your job you are damn lucky. Security guards also have to pay for their SIA badge currently which is over two hundred pounds for three years. You would get more in London but Scunthorpe is a long way from there, it's a job that often immigrants take rather than the Brits.

Bob I read the stuff with it, I just think they are all idiots.

 

[Sukerkin]

I think the point is, Tez, that he was on the pavement not on the companies property. As you say, if the road itself is private, then things become trickier.

None of which excuses the security guards words - I am in full accordance with Bob's post#28 above. If it were me, I'd've shifted when asked 'cos I'm a good little subject and do as I'm told. But I am glad to see there are people willing to show some resilience in the face of pseudo-authority figures; that way we may stave off the day when 'Blakies' have real command over our lives.

P.S. For our American friends, "Blakey" was a character in the sit-com "On The Buses" He embodied the very spirit of the over-blown sense of self-importance and non-existent actual authority that we are addressing here.

 

[Tez3]

I think the point is, Tez, that he was on the pavement not on the companies property. As you say, if the road itself is private, then things become trickier.

None of which excuses the security guards words - I am in full accordance with Bob's post#28 above. If it were me, I'd've shifted when asked 'cos I'm a good little subject and do as I'm told. But I am glad to see there are people willing to show some resilience in the face of pseudo-authority figures; that way we may stave off the day when 'Blakies' have real command over our lives.

P.S. For our American friends, "Blakey" was a character in the sit-com "On The Buses" He embodied the very spirit of the over-blown sense of self-importance and non-existent actual authority that we are addressing here.

If where he stood is where the point of the arrow is he wasn't on the pavement if there were a pavement, there's also no street lights, kerbs or drains so whether he's on a public road or not is debateable. You can see a line where a pavement would be and he's to the other side of it, not the side closest to the road. If that's his white vehicle parked up to the left it's illegally parked, on the 'pavement' if it is a pavement and too near the junction.
I find it odd that people condemn the 'Occupy' movement and then applaud this chap. Yes the security guard was wrong but heyho that's life, you don't stand arguing with a moron do you? You take positive action, you contact the company that employs them and you contact the company that employs that security company. You contact the SIA, the local council anyone and everyone. Getting into an argument with someone like that proves what? That you can argue with idiots? They are all idiots, instead of doing the right thing and actually getting something done about this guard the photographer puts on the internet 'for a laugh', wow that's going to really change things. While you are all tutting over the behaviour of the guard, what's happened to her over this? Nothing! do a job properly, what's the point of standing there chuntering at each other, when you could have done something positive. It's just more whinging and hot air. Have the courage of your convictions and actually do something about the situation.
The photographer might have had a look at his local byelaws as well before asserting he had a right to be on that piece of land, it may turn out he didn't have a right to stand anywhere there.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

What the guard and her supervisor should have done was call the police.
Like they threatened.

The problem is if you give in to the little power trips, they win.

If you tell me to go, and I go, sure we avoid a confrontation.
But you won. I lost.
You got your wish, me moved along.
I didn't get what I wanted, the shot.

Sure I can come back, but then what?
Another demand to move along, with you having set the precedence that I will.

If you do not assert your rights, you lose them.

As to this:

The photographer might have had a look at his local byelaws as well before asserting he had a right to be on that piece of land, it may turn out he didn't have a right to stand anywhere there.

What makes you think he wasn't aware of the local laws?

He himself said this:

After hours of research and reading I though I’d gained enough knowledge and understanding to know where I stood within the law should I ever be confronted again, although I don’t profess to be an outright expert.

When he was told to move on, he asked if he was on company property. He stated his belief that he was on public not private property. He asked if he should go across the street to ensure he was on public, not private property.
The guard wanted him to stop shooting and go away, public or private.
She finally admitted, she didn't "give a toss about the law".

Sorry, but if a guard doesn't care about the law, can't be bothered to ensure he or she is issuing a -lawful- order, I can't be bothered with complying.
I will comply with all -lawful- orders. I've no requirement to obey unlawful ones.

As to their pay, £5 is about $7.50 so ok, she makes minimum wage by US standards.
Not. My. Problem.
She has a job. Do the job. Don't be an *** about it. Want better pay, go find a better job.
Job market is bad? Push the government to make it easier for businesses to grow and make more jobs. Start your own business. Always options. (kinda why I run 3 companies)

I don't profess to be an expert in UK rights or laws either. In the event I visit, I'll beef up my data.

UK Photographers Rights Site: http://photographernotaterrorist.org/
It's an interesting read IMO.

Tez, you say you haven't seen any real push on this. Are you a photographer? Do you frequent photographer communities? If you aren't/don't you probably wouldn't hear much, no more than you'd know about a push for say, gothic lolitas organizing a convention. I do frequent them, and I can assure you that the UK photographer community is concerned about this stuff, and active in seeking to get things changed.

We disagree on things. No big deal. If we all agreed all the time, it'd be a boring forum.

 

[Tez3]

So how has anything changed by this photgraphers actions in standing there arguing with the security guard? Nothing. If you want to change things to keep your rights you don't stand there arguing with idiots, it's not 'backing down' to walk away after telling them that you aren't going to discuss this with menials. All she would have done after the 'confrontation' with the photgrapher is go back inside and put the kettle on. However if you campaign properly she will have received reprimands and education about the law and waht she can and can't say, this would be cascaded through the security company she works for, if you go to the SIA she could lose her badge and her job, this situation would then be publicised throughout the security industry as no one wants mistakes like that. The Golden Wonder company may change contacts for security so the security company has to face the consquences if you contact the managing director, they won't won't a bad situation. Take it up with your MP, the local council, the county council,the parish council, take it up with the media don't just have confrontations with nobodies have them with somebodies.


I lose patience to be honest with people who say they want to 'change' things etc when all they are inclined to do is preach to the converted and whinge, Bob you say it's common knowledge among the photographic community that they want to campaign, well it should be common knowledge among everyone here, they can't sit there moaning among themselves they need to get it into the public's eye, you don't do this by arguing with daftcow guards and posting it on the internet. They should have some gumption and get the message out there.
In the military we have a saying 'don't just stand there, do something!' Arguing with an idiot is not doing something, just makes two idiots. Walking away after telling them you won't argue this point because you are right is hardly losing the argument. I can easily walk away from an argument and still 'win' it. let them bluster all they like, you will still have won, you walk away with style, confidence and an airy condescension, works every time.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Common knowledge in a niche community != common knowledge in the full community.

I know my rights as a photographer in the US.
The Miami police department has issued memos, lost lawsuits, been put on the spot by lawmakers, etc.
They still harass photographers in Miami.

Sometimes, people don't care what the law says.
All they care is that someone else "respects their authority".

I see this case as exactly that.

And anyway, retreat with style is a French thing I thought?

 

[Tez3]

Common knowledge in a niche community != common knowledge in the full community.

I know my rights as a photographer in the US.
The Miami police department has issued memos, lost lawsuits, been put on the spot by lawmakers, etc.
They still harass photographers in Miami.

Sometimes, people don't care what the law says.
All they care is that someone else "respects their authority".

I see this case as exactly that.

And anyway, retreat with style is a French thing I thought?

Ah but there's an American way of doing things, bull china shop, and the British way, a concerted effort to use as many strings as one has. This photographer has many strings if he wants to use them, that could have been all over the media and debated nationally instead of just between us.
when you argue with jobsworths you turn it into something personal and each tries to score points over the other, it escalates into a shouting match which is pointless. You stop it by speaking with authority and curtailing the 'discussion', it's not retreating, it;s chosing your battlefield. I suspect military and ex miliarty people know what I mean when I say you speak with the authority of an RSM, it usually shuts most people up even civvies. You take charge of the situation (I think the psycho-babble has it that you 'own' the situation), you silence them and you walk away leaving them with their mouths open, always a good result especially when they then have to dread your next actions and a call from the boss.

Have you watched Downton Abbey yet, if so think the Dowager Duchess.

 

[Tez3]

Put downs the English way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVMtffzbAwk&feature=related

Warning some involve American and 'foreigners'

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I'm a Blackadder fan. I'm used to put downs on American and 'foreigners'

 

[Tez3]

I'm a Blackadder fan. I'm used to put downs on American and 'foreigners'

My favourite quote apart from the 'what is a weekend' one is the one about no Englishman would die in a stranger's bed. As with Blackadder there is a certain amount of truth in these quotes in that English people, not Brits necessarily, do consider foreigners as being like pets, you have affection for them and can pet them but all the same they need to know their place. The fact that a well spoken put down said in tones of authority will put a lot of people in their place even these days of 'equality' and PCness. I can tell you now that security guard wouldn't have spoken to me like that even if I were in civvies.

 

[Carol]

And now for something completely different.,,,,

"A-Always, B-Be, C-Closing. Always be closing, always be closing."

Asking permission is more than polite. Its a subtle, but absolutely golden sales opportunity.