UK home defence

[jobo]

if you read the article and understood it, there was no where that the the writer said the police told him 'Samurai' swords are illegal, the writer himself puts 'some are illegal', in brackets to explain. You then wrote 'importing, selling is not legal....etc',however selling replica swords even 'Samurai' one is completely legal you can buy them on Amazon and Ebay as well as other sites. Swords, Blades UK, Sword, knives, Martial Arts, Samurai, Samuri, Lord Rings, Movie Collectables
imported ones. Swords, Blades UK, Sword, knives, Martial Arts, Samurai, Samuri, Lord Rings, Movie Collectables

no I didnt say the police told him samurais are illegal, nor did I say importing and selling them is not illegal. ??

putting up items for sale on eBay as proof that things are not illegal doesn't really work, eBay is full of things which are illegal in the uk, they are either breaking the law or in another jurisdiction and don't care

 

[dvcochran]

the lines are clear as mud, there are situation like the one in the sword case where they are " reasonably " clear, but after chasing him to the garden carrying a sword even those get blurry if he had inflicted a serious injury. what's really unclear I mean really really unclear is the protection of possessions, where there is no threat to the person. causing serious injury to someone who is in the middle of stealing your car or walking out with your tv will be very very hard to justi , so going out of the safety of your home to protect your car and knocking him out cold with a wheel brace or sneaking up being someone leaving your house carrying your 50' plasma and hitting them with rolling pin would most likely see you in a bit of bother.

That is just wrong. Clearly these people have never been taught any kind of respect or morality. Whacking them over the head with a tire iron while they are stealing my TV would be a good start in teaching them that what they are doing is wrong on every human level.

 

[Tez3]

no I didnt say the police told him samurais are illegal, nor did I say importing and selling them is not illegal. ??

putting up items for sale on eBay as proof that things are not illegal doesn't really work, eBay is full of things which are illegal in the uk, they are either breaking the law or in another jurisdiction and don't care

Sigh, do keep up. You said the police were wrong,however they didn't say anything it was the householder/writer that said it, so you are incorrect.
You also ignored the British firm selling imports which aren't genuine samurai swords quite legally. Not unless you consider chinses made 35 quid swords to be genuine Japanese ones.

Interesting too that you went off in a huff telling everyone you were putting me on ignore, guess that's not true either

 

[jobo]

Sigh, do keep up. You said the police were wrong,however they didn't say anything it was the householder/writer that said it, so you are incorrect.
You also ignored the British firm selling imports which aren't genuine samurai swords quite legally. Not unless you consider chinses made 35 quid swords to be genuine Japanese ones.

Interesting too that you went off in a huff telling everyone you were putting me on ignore, guess that's not true either

I said the police were wrong, I. didn't say they said anything, genuine sw!ords are legal it's the 35 quid Chinese one that are not, and those are only illegal to import/ sell, hence why the police were wrong to take his sword off him for consideration

 

[Tez3]

I said the police were wrong, I. didn't say they said anything, genuine sw!ords are legal it's the 35 quid Chinese one that are not, and those are only illegal to import/ sell, hence why the police were wrong to take his sword off him for consideration

The £35 pound Chinese sword is perfectly legal to buy as I have shown. It's on the perfectly legal British website I posted up.
You said the police were wrong despite not having any statements from them. Of course they weren't wrong, they have to cross the Ts and dot the Is to make sure there is no legal comeback on the householder. if they hadn't people like you would have claimed they were sloppy and didn't know their jobs.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

As far as i know the law to be cited for curved blades, any blade above 50CM in length and curved is banned UNLESS It is a antique or traditionally made. (which can be provable if it was made before X period defined in law or you get a certificate from manufacturer to state its been made traditionally, thank god there are still forges which do Japanese swords like that)

And that is a paraphrase off the government website in regard to. There might be the religious reason defence claus in there for it. (i think that applies to all weapons on the banned weapon list and other wise restricted ones as a defence in court)

(i will edit this post or post under it with a citation to the banned weapon list)

Selling, buying and carrying knives

( "swords, including samurai swords - a curved blade over 50cm (with some exceptions, such as antiques and swords made to traditional methods before 1954)" The actual quote)

 

[Tez3]

As far as i know the law to be cited for curved blades, any blade above 50CM in length and curved is banned UNLESS It is a antique or traditionally made. (which can be provable if it was made before X period defined in law or you get a certificate from manufacturer to state its been made traditionally, thank god there are still forges which do Japanese swords like that)

And that is a paraphrase off the government website in regard to. There might be the religious reason defence claus in there for it. (i think that applies to all weapons on the banned weapon list and other wise restricted ones as a defence in court)

(i will edit this post or post under it with a citation to the banned weapon list)

Selling, buying and carrying knives

( "swords, including samurai swords - a curved blade over 50cm (with some exceptions, such as antiques and swords made to traditional methods before 1954)" The actual quote)

which will be why the police took the sword for examination and having found it legal gave it back. As usual Jobo is just looking to be argumentative, that and he hates the police.

The site I posted which sells legal swords in the UK.
Swords, Blades UK, Sword, knives, Martial Arts, Samurai, Samuri, Lord Rings, Movie Collectables

 

[DaveB]

I don't know if this has been discussed, or if I'm in the right section, but hey.

This is about an ongoing case (it happened last night) - I don't have specifics other than what has been reported.

So two men, at least one of which was armed (with a screwdriver) break into the home of a 78 year old man.

Said septuagenarian is forced into his kitchen by the 'armed' assailant while the other goes upstairs - a scuffle breaks out and the 78 year old fatally stabs the assailant who is 40 years his junior.

Pensioner arrested on suspicion of murder, put in the cells - surviving assailant escapes...


So, as I previously said (and was told in no uncertain terms was bad information) if you defend yourself here you're in the wrong until someone can prove you acted reasonably.


Discuss

The first thing that needs to be understood is that being arrested DOESN'T MEAN YOU DID SOMETHING WRONG.

People are arrested to facilitate investigation. A man died, that needs to be investigated. Forensic evidence needs to be collected, not least from the man's clothing, statements from witnesses and the suspect need to be taken. It's almost a certainty that the old man spent little to no time in a cell and would have been returned home at the earliest convenience.

Sadly we can't just let police decide guilt or innocence based on appearance.

 

[dvcochran]

The first thing that needs to be understood is that being arrested DOESN'T MEAN YOU DID SOMETHING WRONG.

People are arrested to facilitate investigation. A man died, that needs to be investigated. Forensic evidence needs to be collected, not least from the man's clothing, statements from witnesses and the suspect need to be taken. It's almost a certainty that the old man spent little to no time in a cell and would have been returned home at the earliest convenience.

Sadly we can't just let police decide guilt or innocence based on appearance.

TCA 40-7-103 is just one of many rules that say otherwise. 2010 Tennessee Code :: Title 40 - Criminal Procedure :: Chapter 7 - Arrest :: :: Part 1 - General Provisions :: :: 40-7-103 - Grounds for arrest by officer without warrant.

 

[DaveB]

TCA 40-7-103 is just one of many rules that say otherwise. 2010 Tennessee Code :: Title 40 - Criminal Procedure :: Chapter 7 - Arrest :: :: Part 1 - General Provisions :: :: 40-7-103 - Grounds for arrest by officer without warrant.

Is Tennessee in the U.K.?

 

[Tez3]

TCA 40-7-103 is just one of many rules that say otherwise. 2010 Tennessee Code :: Title 40 - Criminal Procedure :: Chapter 7 - Arrest :: :: Part 1 - General Provisions :: :: 40-7-103 - Grounds for arrest by officer without warrant.

That is America though in the UK Dave B is absolutely right, being arrested here isn't the same as it is in the USA.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

which will be why the police took the sword for examination and having found it legal gave it back. As usual Jobo is just looking to be argumentative, that and he hates the police.

The site I posted which sells legal swords in the UK.
Swords, Blades UK, Sword, knives, Martial Arts, Samurai, Samuri, Lord Rings, Movie Collectables

Im aware, i was being impartial and was only citing a government source the law in question. Plus i was looking at getting a 49-47cm long curved blade pending how far i wanted to push the judicial system to avoid the 50cm ban.

The irony about it is, i think they pushed for the ban because a MP got attacked by one and saw you could buy katanas and other asian swords at basically any seaside market store. But if you go to the seaside, you can still buy them just the legal ones. Gone from 71CM wall hanger junk to sub 50cm wall hanger junk, but that's as far as i can bend the politics rule.

Is Tennessee in the U.K.?

Depends who you ask.

 

[Tez3]

The irony about it is, i think they pushed for the ban because a MP got attacked by one and saw you could buy katanas and other asian swords at basically any seaside market store.

That's not quite the reason, there was a councillor killed in the office of an MP, who was also injured 8 years ago but that's not the sole reason these fakes were banned. There had been a lot of attacks using these fake swords which were flooding into the country. There was also the issue of fraud/counterfeit crime in that many were being sold as 'genuine'. Genuine katanas ( I don't know why the media insist on calling them samurai swords instead of the proper name) aren't banned and the Japanese makers are happy with us stopping the flow of the cheap nasty fake ones to the UK. A lot of consultation took place with a wide range of people including martial artists.
This from 10 years ago. BBC NEWS | UK | Ban on samurai swords becomes law

 

[dvcochran]

That is America though in the UK Dave B is absolutely right, being arrested here isn't the same as it is in the USA.

I will take out "young" legal system. Flawed as it is.

 

[dvcochran]

Is Tennessee in the U.K.?

Just trying to give some wise perspective.

 

[Tez3]

I will take out "young" legal system. Flawed as it is.

You'd take it out where? the pub?
The problem, though it's not really a problem as such if you only stay in one place, is that from what I've seen is that each state seems to have different laws which makes it difficult in discussions like this to pin down what someone should do in case they were attacked. We have some differences by country but these are quite clearly written on legal and government sites so you know the grounds for prosecution etc. I imagine if you move from state to state on business or holiday it could get very confusing.

 

[lklawson]

An Idiot’s Guide to Self-Defence

Guidance is actually quite clear in the UK, even with the differing laws we have between countries. The above was written by a very experienced and reputable Queen's Counsel, there's no equivalent in the USA so you may have to look it up as well as the writer.

There are, literally, dozens of books about the subject here in the U.S. Authors such as Mas Ayoob's "Deadly Force - Understanding Your Right To Self Defense" and Andrew Branca's "The Law of Self Defense" are both excellent but there are tons more.

And you can find most of the information contained in them on various blogs, forums, and articles.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Tez3]

There are, literally, dozens of books about the subject here in the U.S. Authors such as Mas Ayoob's "Deadly Force - Understanding Your Right To Self Defense" and Andrew Branca's "The Law of Self Defense" are both excellent but there are tons more.

And you can find most of the information contained in them on various blogs, forums, and articles.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

We have info from the CPS though, the actual people who prosecute for the Crown, much better than opinion pieces. The QC who wrote and included that info is an expert not someone with an opinion.

 

[lklawson]

We have info from the CPS though, the actual people who prosecute for the Crown, much better than opinion pieces. The QC who wrote and included that info is an expert not someone with an opinion.

Fair enough. To be clear, Ayoob is a certified Expert Witness, lecturer, and recently retired cop. Branca is a well known defense lawyer in the field. Both are most certainly experts, FWIW.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Tez3]

Fair enough. To be clear, Ayoob is a certified Expert Witness, lecturer, and recently retired cop. Branca is a well known defense lawyer in the field. Both are most certainly experts, FWIW.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

My point though is that we have definitive guidance for all, police, public and the legal profession but how does that work when your laws appear to be different in each state?
Police officers aren't really experts in law, they do their job, the prosecution/defence is other people's jobs.