Ugh!!!!

[wade]

Well, that's the beauty of it. I am a total ignorant beginner waiting to be dazzled cause I done seen "The Last Samurai" and other than not wanting Tom's nose or to have to train like that I do want everything else.
Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Don Roley]

I have just one small question, who the heck are you and what gives you the right to make fun of anyone else?

The first ammendment and over a decade of study of the sword while living in Japan. If they do stupid things, I have the right to comment on it. If you don't like us commenting, you should stop reading and posting.

And you do not even know what you are talking about when you state certain "facts" about the subject matter such as Musashi. In my eyes, you are not worth listening to. Best if you sit back and learn from those that know more than you.

 

[Kwiter]

I've been "studying" MA for about 30 years, as a Teen I had an affection for Bokken and Sai and fooled with both, never would have wanted to do the insane things I did with a Bokken with a live blade. I was never TRAINED to use a Bokken or Sai just kinda aped what I saw in Fumio Demura's books and the Saturday Martial Arts shows ;-)

Kids will do some incredibly crazy thing, hell one of MY favorite after July 4th activity's was to gather up unused Sparklers , strip the aluminum oxide coating off and place in a cigar tube, add a 1/4 ounce or so of gasoline , pop a hole in the cigar tubes end cap and run a sparkler thru it, light that sparkler and watch the show! We also used to collect unfired firecrackers and remove the powder and make LARGE explosive devices in film cannisters and such.

I recall a BBC TV show called the Goodies, they had their own MA too called Ecky Thump where you used Bread pudding as a weapon!

Where am I going with all this? No where in particular. Enlighten those you can and forget those who don't want to listen.

In the old days children actually were TRUSTED to have Knives and Bow and Arrows, even rifles and other "weapons" and were supervised by their neighbors and woe unto you if a neighbor saw you doing something stupid with them.

My fave tho was a neighbor complaining to my Grandmother about me riding my Motorcycle up and down the block like a lunatic, guess my bike being in pieces in boxes waiting to be painted in my Grandmothers basement at the time saved me that time eh? ;-)

Skennen Peace.

 

[Kwiter]

Let me babble some more, remember too that many times in Film, the director has NO CLUE about MA's and hires a consultant BUT has ultimate say on how things will go wether the consultant tells them its wrong, silly or dangerous.

Youtubers are looking for their 15 minutes of Fame in most cases and some really are talented and some Hysterical. gotta love them Mentos Rockets and the DIY Flamethrowers and Potato cannons.

 

[wade]

Don, Sorry, but I think you misunderstood me. I never said that I didn't like your comments or your posting. I have really learned a lot more than I ever knew about the sword and swordsmanship by reading posts from qualified experts like you. My point was that if you tell me your style is Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu and your sword instructor was Iizasa Choisai Ienao, how would I know you were telling the truth? You do know who he is, right? And why the style is important to me? My point is that there are a lot of fakes out there to bedazzle people like me so how do I tell what is real and what is not? Oh yeah, the bit about the boken is from the book MUSASHI written by Fumiko Yoshikawa in 1971. Now, if I can't believe this writer, then who can I believe? I will understand if you don't respond because like you said I don't know what I am talking about and I'm not gonna argue with you cause you are right. But if I don't ask questions how am I gonna find out the answers? I thought maybe here but apparently, I was wrong. Sorry.................................... I won't bother you experts on this subject again.

 

[jks9199]

I wonder if at one time someone made a foot stomp to emphasize the strike with the hand, and in the end one gets this. I have not seen this before, and not sure about the multiple steps in a FMA style system.

As the site stated Cebuano Knife Fighting is tight, and while I agree with that, I am having a problem "seeing" this footwork in action myself. And that is with 20+ years of being open minded to the FMA's and knowing that there are some really interesting differences, yet this one leaves me wondering What the Heck?

Ugh is correct.

I can imagine legitimate reasons for the steps/stomps. But the presentation was utterly unrealistic; the "opponent" throws one half-hearted strike-ish motion, and the showboat does his 30 steps and taps while the "opponent" just stands there. Just ain't gonna happen in reality...

That, and it kind of worries me if the system requires a smooth surface be laid on a nice grassy field...

 

[Don Roley]

Don, Sorry, but I think you misunderstood me. I never said that I didn't like your comments or your posting. I have really learned a lot more than I ever knew about the sword and swordsmanship by reading posts from qualified experts like you. My point was that if you tell me your style is Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu and your sword instructor was Iizasa Choisai Ienao, how would I know you were telling the truth?

Ah, I see your point.

In this case, I think that the flipping and such of the clips are pretty obvious. Failing that (since unless we have been a real sword fight we can't say with experience what will work or not) you should look for groups of folks that are in places to know something about swordsmanship. If someone is posting from Japan about Japanese swordsmanship, they may be more knowledgeable than most. Of course, there is a lot of idiots who will not even learn the language while living in Japan. So look for those that seem to be in step with the vast majority of folks posting from Japan.

On Martialtalk, if someone claims to be posting from Japan and is not, you will know about it.

My point is that there are a lot of fakes out there to bedazzle people like me so how do I tell what is real and what is not? Oh yeah, the bit about the boken is from the book MUSASHI written by Fumiko Yoshikawa in 1971. Now, if I can't believe this writer, then who can I believe?

Well, certainly not a work of fiction. Yoshikawa tells a good story, but misses the point in very important points. Musashi did not use a bokken so that he would not kill his opponents so quickly. Trust me on this.

But I understand your point about not being able to tell the fakes from the real guys. Unless you are an expert, you really can't tell. That is why you need to verify if they guy is trustworthy or not and check his story. Some people may be telling the truth about who they learned from and still be idiots. But someone who won't tell you who they trained with and contact them is not someone you should trust when dealing with things like swords.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I can imagine legitimate reasons for the steps/stomps. But the presentation was utterly unrealistic; the "opponent" throws one half-hearted strike-ish motion, and the showboat does his 30 steps and taps while the "opponent" just stands there. Just ain't gonna happen in reality...

That, and it kind of worries me if the system requires a smooth surface be laid on a nice grassy field...

Yes the stomps are applicable, but as you stated, the presentation was lacking. And hence my confusion in understanding it.

 

[splice42]

Oh yeah, the bit about the boken is from the book MUSASHI written by Fumiko Yoshikawa in 1971. Now, if I can't believe this writer, then who can I believe?

First, MUSASHI was written by Eiji Yoshikawa, not Fumiko Yoshikawa.

Second, Eiji Yoshikawa was a novelist. The novel MUSASHI contained many fictionalized details. You can read more about it (and more about Musashi in general) at this link.

I would suggest you also look for Kenji Tokitsu's Musashi: His Life & Writings, and William Scott Wilson's Lone Samurai. Both are deeply involved with translating and interpreting original japanese literature. I believe Dr. Karl Friday (professor of Japanese History) linked to the article in the previous paragraph as "a good source for reasonably accurate information".

I would also suggest that in the future you either check up on your sources thoroughly or cast a wider net. Your protestation of "if I can't trust this writer, who can I believe?" rings hollow when considering the very nature of the work (fiction) and the availability of serious research on the subject.

 

[jks9199]

Ah, I see your point.

In this case, I think that the flipping and such of the clips are pretty obvious. Failing that (since unless we have been a real sword fight we can't say with experience what will work or not) you should look for groups of folks that are in places to know something about swordsmanship. If someone is posting from Japan about Japanese swordsmanship, they may be more knowledgeable than most. Of course, there is a lot of idiots who will not even learn the language while living in Japan. So look for those that seem to be in step with the vast majority of folks posting from Japan.

So, the Japanese have found yet another way to imitate the US, huh? I've spent entire days at work where I spoke more Spanish than English...

Well, certainly not a work of fiction. Yoshikawa tells a good story, but misses the point in very important points. Musashi did not use a bokken so that he would not kill his opponents so quickly. Trust me on this.

But I understand your point about not being able to tell the fakes from the real guys. Unless you are an expert, you really can't tell. That is why you need to verify if they guy is trustworthy or not and check his story. Some people may be telling the truth about who they learned from and still be idiots. But someone who won't tell you who they trained with and contact them is not someone you should trust when dealing with things like swords.

Something else worth remembering is that sometimes stories get twisted during repetition. A person I highly respect has a tendency to enlarge stories for the benefit of his friends; it's well meaning -- but to hear him tell one story, I had every woman in a bar buying me drinks one night. The truth... ONE woman bought me ONE drink after I bought her one. Stories of martial arts masters are even worse... It's told to the first generation one way (the master beat 3 people in one night!), and they repeat it (the master beat three people at once), and it gets repeated again (the master beat 3 sets of 3 people with only one strike each!)... And so on. Nobody's is deliberately lying, and there's a germ of truth in there -- but the accounts aren't quite accurate.

That said -- as you said, anyone who won't/can't tell you who they trained with is suspect. I'll give them a little leeway on the contact if the explanation is reasonable and doesn't feel deceptively convenient. For example, I won't give my instructor's phone number or address out to someone without his permission. But you can verify who he is and who I am through other channels.

 

[wade]

I wasn't gonna come back cause y'all were picking on me cause of how much I don't know but I just learned a new word and wanted to share it with you (only the ones that are being mean to me cause I am such a freaking delicate flower) anyway the word it PPPPBBBBTTTTHHHHHHH, I think, probably got this wrong too, damn..............................

BTW, thanks Don, that does help. When I said I was really a beginner I wasn't joking. To me what is obvious to you looks cool and normal to me.

To splice42, on the cover it says Eiji Yoshikawa but on page iv it says Fumiko Yoshikawa 1971. So please understand if I was confused.

OK, done, gone again, by...................................

 

[pgsmith]

My point was that if you tell me your style is Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu and your sword instructor was Iizasa Choisai Ienao, how would I know you were telling the truth?

Wade,
Your best bet is research. You could ask somewhere, such as here, and likely get the answer that someone lied to you since Iizasa Choisai Ienao created TSKSR about 600 years ago, and so is NOT likely to be someone's teacher today. However, you would only find the answer to the specific question you asked that way, and wouldn't really gain a lot of knowledge. If you instead asked for research resources from somewhere, such as here, and did your own research, then you would learn a lot of stuff that you would never have thought to ask about such as ... Who is the current soke? Why isn't he the head instructor? Who is the head instructor?

Oh yeah, the bit about the boken is from the book MUSASHI written by Fumiko Yoshikawa in 1971. Now, if I can't believe this writer, then who can I believe?

As has been previously pointed out, this book is a work of historical fiction, not a biography. You would be much better off believing the words of those that actually practice the art handed down by Musashi (there are a few that have quite a large presence on the net). A little research, or questions asked, could yield quite a bit of very accurate information.

But if I don't ask questions how am I gonna find out the answers? I thought maybe here but apparently, I was wrong.

As I stated earlier, it is all in the questions that you ask. Wishing to be spoon-fed very particular information will cause people to grow weary of it very quickly. Looking for ways to increase your own level of knowledge through extensive research of your own, will invite people to assist you in your quest. The proper outlook is all-important.

 

[Ninjamom]

When the US Dept of Treasury trains agents to recognize counterfeit twenty dollar bills, they do not show them tons of different fake twenties: they have the new agents handle thousands of real bills. Once you are very familiar with the look and feel of the 'real thing', all the counterfeits become obvious.

Perhaps what the community needs is a short collectioon of video clips of what 'good' swordsmanship looks like, so that those who haven't studied a traditional sword art can see the difference. Nothing exposes a fraud more readily than the real deal.

 

[Sukerkin]

Whilst not a bad idea in and of itself, Ninjamom, I believe that one of the reasons why 'accurate' information and demonstrations are not made freely available is so that it makes it harder for the 'fakers' to be convincing. At least I know that's the case in the world of sword collecting i.e. accurate information passes within a proscribed 'circle' so that those producing fake antiques have less chance of making ones that will fool the experts.

Plus, there is always the old chestnut that if examples of good JSA are put out there too prevelently, then some untrained kid (or adult) is going to end up with a katana stuck where it shouldn't be whilst trying to look 'cool' copying the kata.

Speaking of cool things ... I know it's been said on other threads but ... cool username milady :tup:.

 

[pgsmith]

Hi Ninjamom,
I don't know that simply seeing good swordsmanship will help all that much, but there is a group on YouTube for it already. There are some really good video clips of legitimate Japanese sword arts here ... http://www.youtube.com/group/iaido

 

[King]

He-he finally saw the vid after reading the discussion posts. Is it me or did he look afraid of the blade he was twirling around? All the sword twirling and the position of his free hand did remind me of escrima.

I do agree that the twirling can get intimidating especially when someone is walking towards you. Back when I tried Kali we sparred with foam covered bamboo sticks. I usually enjoyed disarming people doing twirls with a well timed overhand strike.

Anyway coming to my point, I think it's cool trying to experiment with different things. In this case applying escrima techniques do different blades. However blades are created for different purpose and/or techniques so I can't believe one style can utilize all the different swords. I think misrepresenting yourself as a master when it's painfully obvious that you are not... Well that's not cool.

 

[wade]

Thank you pgsmith, watching some of those was like watching my instructor from over 30 years ago. Yes, I do know who Iizasa Choisai Ienao was and when he lived. My sword instructor trained in Japan and this was the style he taught to me. No, I don't have any ranking in this system, yes, I still train in it the way I was taught. Thank you, i loved the videos.

 

[pgsmith]

Hey Wade,
I was not trying to slag you or be condescending, just trying to point out something that seemed to be missing in your approach. Glad you liked the vids, I haven't had a chance to watch them all myself, but I have picked out and watched some of the choicer ones!

 

[Don Roley]

Thank you pgsmith, watching some of those was like watching my instructor from over 30 years ago. Yes, I do know who Iizasa Choisai Ienao was and when he lived. My sword instructor trained in Japan and this was the style he taught to me. No, I don't have any ranking in this system, yes, I still train in it the way I was taught. Thank you, i loved the videos.

Be carefull.

There are very, very few qualified kenjutsu instructors in America. There were even fewer 30 years ago. I would dare say that not even one in a hundred people claiming to teach sword in America would even rate as a begginer in many sword schools in Japan.

I have seen situations where people have taken kenjutsu videos and such and turned around and taught students from them. These people then put videos of themselves up on the internet. The real practicioners of the art saw them and could tell all the flaws. But the students of the video learners could look at the real stuff from Japan and think that they were looking at the same thing they were doing.

I do not know who your teacher is or if he was legit. I do not have a name and I am sure you believe him. However, the odds are against you for him being legit in what he says. And unless you were exposed to the real thing, you can look at real stuff and think you are doing the same thing. It is like what ninjamom said about the treasury and counterfeit bills.

So you see the problem. How do you know that what you learned was real? I used to believe that an instructor I trained with in America knew his stuff and I was with him for a few years. It was not until I got to Japan that I saw how wrong I was and learned just how little he had spent in Japan learning.

Annoying, isn't it?

 

[wade]

Hi Don, OK, about my instructor. Hmmmm, as far as I know he wasn't even a black belt. We never discussed it even though we trained together for over 3 years. I was the TKD instructor for 5th Grp at Bragg and he was a Spc 7 with the 4th Psyops Bn. We met while working as range safety NCO's. He studied Hapkido and the sword, was married to a nice Japanese lady he met while stationed in Japan. He taught me what he knew of the sword, which just happened to be KSR and I taught him how to kick and punch. My wife's father gave me my first sword that he had picked up in Japan at the end of the war. He was in the South Pacific, not sure what islands but ended up serving with the original occupation forces. The swords were lying in hugh stacks and the US forces were told to take what they wanted. Sad, eh? Anyway, it was during this time I made the mistake of cutting branches with the sword. Mike, my unauthorized instructor, was the one who had a panic attack and made me quit. So as for him being a legal qualified instructor, I really doubt he was. Was he real, probably not, do I care, not even a little. I have worked with others that have claimed to be instructors but to be honest my thing is TKD so I have never even checked up on them to see if their rank was legal or not. I don't teach the sword nor do I claim to be an instructor in it. I still have fun and play with them though. Thank you for your effort to help me clean up my act. Probably not gonna work but thanks anyway.