Ugh!!!!

[pgsmith]

While I wholeheartedly agree with your thoughts on government regulation, I have to point out that you didn't answer my question ... why?

You've said that we have an obligation to speak, and you've said that the public needs to know, but you've not explained why this is. Why does the general public need to know? Why does it matter if they believe sword twirling is "true" martial arts? Why is it our responsibility to go out and tell them?

Just curious as to your reasons.

 

[pstarr]

It's necessary because if they believe that the garbage they see is the real thing, it gives us all a black eye. Also, people enroll in those kinds of classes thinking that they're learning real (effective) martial arts...and they're not.

Years ago we saw the martial arts become the focus of various movie themes and even television shows...there was an explosion of interest in these disciplines and people flocked to all kinds of schools. Some characters touted themselves as "grandmasters" of this or that - green belts promoted themselves and opened schools - and the traditionalists stayed in the shadows. We sat back with our arms folded and chuckled to ourselves, thinking, "Those poor fools. Wasting their time and money. They should know better."

But they couldn't have known better. They could only know what they'd seen.

Now we've got everything from "sports karate" (in my area you can even get a black belt in the style known as "sports karate"!) to "Xtreme martial arts" and everything in between. People handle katanas like cheerleaders handle batons, "masters" do flying somesaults with a half-twist and break a couple of boards...

And still we want to sit in the shadows and chuckle.

And the traditional schools struggle to keep their enrollments up while the "Xtreme" crowd has people filling every square inch of their schools. One of the reasons for this is because people believe that that's what martial arts really are...and if we continue to sit back and do nothing, the traditional arts will eventually die out.

We know what's true and what isn't, more or less. We know what real karate or kung-fu is and what isn't. To stand by and let the junk pass for the real arts (to which we have devoted ourselves) is to subsidize it.

As the saying goes, "All that is required for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing."

 

[Don Roley]

While I wholeheartedly agree with your thoughts on government regulation, I have to point out that you didn't answer my question ... why?

You've said that we have an obligation to speak, and you've said that the public needs to know, but you've not explained why this is. Why does the general public need to know? Why does it matter if they believe sword twirling is "true" martial arts? Why is it our responsibility to go out and tell them?

Just curious as to your reasons.

Well, even though the question was not directed at me, I will give my answer.

I think that I need to speak up for a very selfish reason. I want to look in the mirror and know that the guy looking back at me is doing his best for those all around him in this world. I do not want to think of myself as the type of person who would look the other way when a woman is raped, or hold back when the right thing needed to be done.

No one can or should force me to do what they think is the right thing. That is my choice to make. But at the same time, having taken that responsibilty for my actions from others, I realize just what kind of burden I have put on myself.

I would not go into a dojo and challenge anyone I felt did not meet my standards. Violence like that is not acceptable. But to stand by and not say anything when something I know is wrong is stated is just as bad in some way as looking the other way when someone is raped. If I say something, and it is rejected, then I will respect those that make their own choice just as I expect my choices to be respected. But I would not sit back and just pat someone on the back as they did something wrong for fear that it may have a negative impact on me or my reputation. I care too much about my opinion of myself to care about what others think of me. People may think I am a crank, but as long as I know I am in the right they can all go to hell.

So I will set up threads about all that is bad in martial arts. If someone sees something and can't see what is wrong with it and yet others are having a good laugh about it, maybe just maybe they will realize they do not have the ability to tell the good from the bad. Maybe they will look at things deeper than they would have. If so, I can feel that I am a good person. If not, then at least I gave it a shot instead of sitting back and letting things go to hell while I remained silent.

 

[pgsmith]

It's necessary because if they believe that the garbage they see is the real thing, it gives us all a black eye.

It hasn't blackened my eyes at all. So, I am to understand that you equate things such as "sports karate" and "XMA" as evil because they make you feel that people think less of you, and that they are stealing your prospective students? Well enough.

I think that I need to speak up for a very selfish reason. I want to look in the mirror and know that the guy looking back at me is doing his best for those all around him in this world. I do not want to think of myself as the type of person who would look the other way when a woman is raped, or hold back when the right thing needed to be done.

Don, I can agree with your general sentiment, but I think that comparing "sensei Bob and his secret sword techniques" to a woman being raped is not only a bit much, it is also a bit rude and insensitive. I know a young lady that was raped, and I seriously doubt that she would equate her trauma with fraudulent martial arts instruction.

I think exposing those that make up their lineage and try to pass off garbage as legitimate technique is a good thing. This gives those that are interested in research another opportunity to learn reality when they begin searching the internet. However, and this is a rather large however in my personal opinion, it is easy to go too far. There are those that get very upset and angry because "sensei Billy Joe Bob" lied about his experience, even though the fraud actually has nothing to do with the person getting upset at all. There are also those that spend much time hunting on the internet to find video and pictures of people that obviously have no idea what they are doing. They proudly display them and, virtually speaking, stand around and point and laugh to make themselves feel better. Both of these groups are missing the point, in my opinion. The point is that we should be training hard in order to improve ourselves. We should not be worried about how others view us, nor should we try and boost ourselves by putting others down. I see too much of both of these on the various martial arts forums.

A final thought from my own experiences ...
There is a corner McDojo not far from me. It's a large space in a strip mall. The head instructor is the type that gets laughed at all the time by traditional martial artists. He's a member of the World Head of Family Sokeship Council, and has been "inducted" into half a dozen of the "Martial Arts Hall of Fames". I have actually seen him working with another instructor of his. He was a great kicker, but the rest of his martial arts, most especially the sword stuff that I saw, was absolutely horrible. He makes the vast majority of his money from kids. His classes are filled with kids from 8 to 18. When I was watching (he's next to my dentist so I've watched quite a bit over the years), the kids were working hard for him. He really seemed to be getting them motivated, and one of the Mom's that was watching with me said he's been great with her kids ever since they started 18 months ago, and they just love him. She told me that her two kids in the class (11 and 13) used to spend all of their time watching TV or playing video games. Now they come to class whenever she'll take them, and they practice together at home. So, were these kids learning a real martial art or learning any self defense? Seriously doubtful! But, it's also seriously doubtful that they'll ever need to physically defend themselves. Was going to fake martial arts classes better than what they would have been doing? Absolutely! Their Mom told me that they previously went to a Wado ryu karatedo dojo, (that instructor is the real deal and both highly skilled and qualified) but it was too difficult and her kids didn't like it.

This fellow is obviously a fake and a fraud. The instruction that he's handing out has been invented by him in order fill his dojo with students and make him money. People like that should be discussed on the internet so anyone researching them and their art will have information. But, would shutting him down be best for society? Does his dojo deserve to be held up as equal to rape? Everyone needs to make their own decisions on those questions. However, I feel that they are not decisions that should be made without hard thinking about what truly motivates us.

 

[pstarr]

While a fraud running a McDojo can't really be compared to something as rape, it's a sorry thing when someone says, "Well, if it doesn't directly affect me, so I'm not going to do anything about it..."

 

[Cruentus]

I think that people can and should do whatever they want, just as long as they present themselves in an honest and ethical manner.

I don't care if the guy in the video is doing hybrid Gung-fu/FMA modified to a Japanese sword....just as long as no one gets hurt, and as long as he doesn't lie or misrepresent things like origin, or what it really is.

I didn't look much into it, but it appears that this individual has given his "art" a Japanese name? I would say that might be a misrepresentation if his sword work doesn't have Japanese origins.

I don't care what people do, but it is annoying when people misrepresent it or inflate it. Just present it like it is and let the free-market decide if it has value. The fact is, no one in the "real world" cares about this stuff, and what is "legit" and what isn't, really. This means that there IS no reason to lie or misrepresent. There is no money in what we do unless clever marketing and customer service is involved anyways, and that is the reality. No one in the "real world" who is looking to take up a martial art or self-defense lesson cares about anything else, really; at least not at first. So, Truth + Clever Marketing + Customer Service = SUCCESS even more so then lies and misrepresentations and poor ethics every single time. These weirdo's who would misrepresent themselves would do well to realize this fact.

But the reality is that there will never be a law in a free country to regulate the martial arts. The main reason is that no one cares, as long as no one is physically hurt in the process. The fact that there will never be laws to regulate our industry is probably good, though; for some things it is best to let the free market decide.

As to what we can do? Don't fraud bust, don't chase people around on forums to spread "the truth;" because none of that works. It is, in fact, counter productive. The sad fact is, people want fantasy, and people want to be lied to. This is true for EVERYONE; just for most people fantasy is indulged in a healthy way. When was the last time you really got into a scary movie or a cool video game? You are indulging in fantasy and in a sense being lied too, because none of these indulgences are real or (often) even remotely possible. Yet, we all do it to some degree. Some people, however, indulge in fantasy in UNHEALTHY ways. The unfortunate fact is that some people have fragile identities, and like to let fantasy transform their identities, and therefore like to use the martial arts as an avenue for fantasy. These people gravitate to the Charlatens and keep them in business. They are the ones who will run to the forums and the testimonials, and defend their fraudulent arts and instructors to the grave. They do this because they WANT to do it...NEED to do it; and no amount of "Fraud Busting" will change anything. Do you REALLY think that Charlatens are kept in business (some with thriving businesses) because all of their clients are simply uninformed? Do you? Don't fool yourself, friend. The free market keeps the Charlatans alive; and in what we do, often more readily then those who are legitimate.

So, what CAN we do? Just present yourself and your art in an ethical manner. Write articles, and informative posts. Talk with people, and of course, train well. You won't scare the general public away from what you do with these tactics, for one. And you're getting the real information out there. For those who are legitimately seeking truth and reality, they will find it whether it be through you or someone like you.

And that is the best that we can do...

Paul

 

[exile]

Don't fraud bust, don't chase people around on forums to spread "the truth;" because none of that works. It is, in fact, counter productive. The sad fact is, people want fantasy, and people want to be lied to. This is true for EVERYONE; just for most people fantasy is indulged in a healthy way. When was the last time you really got into a scary movie or a cool video game? You are indulging in fantasy and in a sense being lied too, because none of these indulgences are real or (often) even remotely possible. Yet, we all do it to some degree. Some people, however, indulge in fantasy in UNHEALTHY ways. The unfortunate fact is that some people have fragile identities, and like to let fantasy transform their identities, and therefore like to use the martial arts as an avenue for fantasy. These people gravitate to the Charlatens and keep them in business. They are the ones who will run to the forums and the testimonials, and defend their fraudulent arts and instructors to the grave. They do this because they WANT to do it...NEED to do it; and no amount of "Fraud Busting" will change anything. Do you REALLY think that Charlatens are kept in business (some with thriving businesses) because all of their clients are simply uninformed? Do you? Don't fool yourself, friend. The free market keeps the Charlatans alive; and in what we do, often more readily then those who are legitimate.

Wow---Paul, this is a really nice piece of analysis! It's easy to forget that so many people can approach things in such a different way from us... and that the intuition we have, that the truth is intrinsically better than an illusion, is far from universal. `You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free', sure----but a lot of people don't want to be free---they'd rather have a home and a community, even if it's made up of fellow illusion-sharers.

So, what CAN we do? Just present yourself and your art in an ethical manner. Write articles, and informative posts. Talk with people, and of course, train well. You won't scare the general public away from what you do with these tactics, for one. And you're getting the real information out there. For those who are legitimately seeking truth and reality, they will find it whether it be through you or someone like you.

And that is the best that we can do...

Something tells me you're right on target about this... the best way to lead is by example? Something like that? Anyway, at a quarter after one in the morning, your comment here definitely has the ring of truth. I hope it isn't just moral fatigue on my part...

 

[The Martialist]

Appropriating the Sword (PDF File)

 

[Grenadier]

Now now...

I dislike a McDojo as much as any of us here do. However, it is their business, and as long as they aren't doing anything illegal, then that's their choice as to how they want to run their business.

This applies to any business, not just martial arts ones. I don't like Lebanese food, but I will certainly respect a Lebanese restaurant's right to conduct their business in their own way, as long as they obey the laws of the land. There's a difference between calling the Health and Safety folks on them because, say, they served tainted food, versus the fact that I simply dislike their type of food, period. One is out of genuine concern for the public, and the other is nothing more than a personal, unjustified vendetta.

If the above restaurant obeys the laws, and serves food that tastes bad to most of the populace (not just bad-tasting to me, but to everyone), then they'll eventually close down on their own, since they won't have any customers, unless the bulk of their customers happen to believe differently than I do, that perhaps they actually like the food there. If they've found lots of people that enjoy their food, then they're giving those people what they want. I may not like the opinions of those customers, but that's their choice. It's not my business to tell them what they can and cannot eat if there are no laws being broken.

The same holds true for martial arts schools. If a school teaches poor quality martial arts, and tries to milk large profits from such instructions, then eventually their school will fail, unless they manage to find people that actually *want* such instruction or fall prey to being gifted these high ranks. If people want to go to such a school, then that's their choice, even if I strongly disagree with it.

Paul has stated probably one of the best bits of advice in his post on this thread. It's well-worth reading, and following.

 

[Don Roley]

Don, I can agree with your general sentiment, but I think that comparing "sensei Bob and his secret sword techniques" to a woman being raped is not only a bit much, it is also a bit rude and insensitive. I know a young lady that was raped, and I seriously doubt that she would equate her trauma with fraudulent martial arts instruction.

That was not my intent and I apologize if it offended anyone. My point was that some people will say that they would not let something like a rape go on in front of them, and yet when faced with a situation much less dangerous to themselves they decline to say anything for fear of the reprecusions to their reputation.

And while I would not fraud bust anyone who is being honest with what they do, there are certain standards that I hold. If someone is making a big show where I can see them, I will make a comment about it not being up to the standards I hold. If someone sees it, then maybe they will understand that what is being peddled is not what is done in Japan or China. If they still choose to train knowing that, no problem on my part. Some people want fantasy. That is alright with me. But we have seen quite a few people who have "self trained" in the sword try to give advice here. They did not get very far because quite a few people let it be known that they were not the experts they presented themselves as.

If they want to live in a fantasy world, then they are free to do so. But if they present themselves as a serious martial artists, then I have the right to say that they are not up to the standards I see in Japan and in real sword arts.

 

[pgsmith]

If someone is making a big show where I can see them, I will make a comment about it not being up to the standards I hold.

I tend to agree with you on that point. In my opinion, it provides valuable research information to those that are interested. My question of why was aimed primarily at those that get "offended" and "angry" at fraudulent martial arts instructors. These are the ones that say that they should all be shut down. I just think those people need to think about why it makes them angry and upset.

 

[Don Roley]

I just think those people need to think about why it makes them angry and upset.

In the case of swords, I tend to be a lot more down on stupid stuff than normal. I know a guy who tried fooling around with a live sword as a teenager and had it slip. He lost part of a toe and considers himself lucky.

You see this type of thing on the internet with its wild spinning and such and you can be pretty sure that some kid is going to try it themselves. Even basic cutting with a katana is something I think shouild not be done unless an instructor is there at first. If you just want to play with bokken and spar, I really don't have a problem with that. But the things that got me with the clips I posted was in just how easy it was for someone to drop the damn sword while playing Conan the Barbarian with all that twirling and fancy moves.

Hey, they have a right to be stupid. And kids are going to do stupid stuff despite our best efforts. But to make it easier for them to try dangerous stuff with swords is not something I think anyone with a conscious should be doing.

 

[jks9199]

In the case of swords, I tend to be a lot more down on stupid stuff than normal. I know a guy who tried fooling around with a live sword as a teenager and had it slip. He lost part of a toe and considers himself lucky.

You see this type of thing on the internet with its wild spinning and such and you can be pretty sure that some kid is going to try it themselves. Even basic cutting with a katana is something I think shouild not be done unless an instructor is there at first. If you just want to play with bokken and spar, I really don't have a problem with that. But the things that got me with the clips I posted was in just how easy it was for someone to drop the damn sword while playing Conan the Barbarian with all that twirling and fancy moves.

Hey, they have a right to be stupid. And kids are going to do stupid stuff despite our best efforts. But to make it easier for them to try dangerous stuff with swords is not something I think anyone with a conscious should be doing.

That's also my concern with some of this stuff. I look back on some of the things I and my friends did (We were walking, talking proof that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing...) when we were kids and you at least had to look to find some of this stuff -- and I wonder how long it'll be till we hear about a kid killing another kid or himself playing with a sword.

If you don't learn the basic safety principles and have supervision, it's just really easy to hurt yourself with a sword... And too much of the stuff I've seen on YouTube or GoogleVideo is inviting someone to get hurt when they try to imitate it.

If someone wants to pay Joe Swordsman for his secret sword system that he claims was handed down the ages from the illegitimate son of D'artangnon by way of Bruce Lee's secret sword instructor -- that's between them. But if they ask me about it... I'm going to give an honest opinion. And I have walked away from demonstrations or clinics where the presenter clearly didn't understand basic safety.

 

[exile]

In the case of swords, I tend to be a lot more down on stupid stuff than normal. I know a guy who tried fooling around with a live sword as a teenager and had it slip. He lost part of a toe and considers himself lucky.

You see this type of thing on the internet with its wild spinning and such and you can be pretty sure that some kid is going to try it themselves. Even basic cutting with a katana is something I think shouild not be done unless an instructor is there at first. If you just want to play with bokken and spar, I really don't have a problem with that. But the things that got me with the clips I posted was in just how easy it was for someone to drop the damn sword while playing Conan the Barbarian with all that twirling and fancy moves.

Hey, they have a right to be stupid. And kids are going to do stupid stuff despite our best efforts. But to make it easier for them to try dangerous stuff with swords is not something I think anyone with a conscious should be doing.

This is getting truer and truer as the XMA phenomenon expands its domain piggybacking on the media's love for anything which maximizes viewship by catering to people's love of spectacle. I'm thinking of Jonathan Boyd's bizarre display of swordsmanship-as-baton-twirling in the Discovery Channel XMA special (yes, I've already posted on this, but the more I think about it and read about the appeal the XMA stuff has for kids, the more alarmed I get thinking about the blade acrobatics, and I think it bears repeating). If you paid close attention to the interview with Boyd after he won the weapons competitiion part of that particular karate tournament, you'd have caught his kind of lighthearted and flippant comment about pushing out the envelope of sword technique by doing stuff that could `probably get you killed'---I think those were his exact words---and I'm pretty sure he was in part referring to one component of his performance where he throws the katana at least ten feet over his head and catches it by the handle on the way down---where the time difference between a hard grab on the handle and a hard grab on the blade is a very small fraction of a second. :uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh:

Glamourizing dangerous or outright stupid practices is a big part in how the media sells their wares. But losing a hand, or worse, seems like it would be much too big a price to pay for a kid whose only crime is not knowing any better, i.e., being a kid. It may help the Discovery Channel's bottom line to glorify this sort of thing (and they do that unreservedly, there's not a single line in the whole damned video that seriously reminds the viewer not to try this at home) but responsible swordspeople would do well to try to counter that kind of sensationalism, along the lines Don is suggesting...

 

[Sui]

Someone please explain something to me.

Why is it that every idiot with a sword just has to put a video of themselves using it on youtube?

I actually laughed out loud while watching that

 

[Don Roley]

I actually laughed out loud while watching that

If you think that was funny, check out the tap- dancing knife master!

But I can't get worked up about this guy since it is a lot less likely that kids will try this type of thing and get hurt. This moron is just plain funny.

 

[terryl965]

Well Don looked at it like this the fantasy world is once again proven to be an asset to some.

 

[Rich Parsons]

If you think that was funny, check out the tap- dancing knife master!

But I can't get worked up about this guy since it is a lot less likely that kids will try this type of thing and get hurt. This moron is just plain funny.

I wonder if at one time someone made a foot stomp to emphasize the strike with the hand, and in the end one gets this. I have not seen this before, and not sure about the multiple steps in a FMA style system.

As the site stated Cebuano Knife Fighting is tight, and while I agree with that, I am having a problem "seeing" this footwork in action myself. And that is with 20+ years of being open minded to the FMA's and knowing that there are some really interesting differences, yet this one leaves me wondering What the Heck?

Ugh is correct.

 

[wade]

WOW! This is great. I've really enjoyed reading everything y'all wrote on the swords and other weapons. The videos were fantastic. The comments were excellent. I have just one small question, who the heck are you and what gives you the right to make fun of anyone else? As I recall, badly mind you, most of the sword masters of Japan hated each other dearly and considered Mushashi a barbarian. He was to swordsmanship what the sport martial arts are to traditional martial arts today. Face it, all he wanted to do was spar and improve his technique. He even changed to a boken so he wouldn't kill his opponents so quickly. Hmmmmmm, I wonder if any one ever criticized his technique? As for your linage, do other Japanese Masters recognize it as legal or not? Back in the day I would say not, has this changed, just curious? If I don't recognize your master and system, and I don't, why should others be expected to?

 

[Rich Parsons]

WOW! This is great. I've really enjoyed reading everything y'all wrote on the swords and other weapons. The videos were fantastic. The comments were excellent. I have just one small question, who the heck are you and what gives you the right to make fun of anyone else? As I recall, badly mind you, most of the sword masters of Japan hated each other dearly and considered Mushashi a barbarian. He was to swordsmanship what the sport martial arts are to traditional martial arts today. Face it, all he wanted to do was spar and improve his technique. He even changed to a boken so he wouldn't kill his opponents so quickly. Hmmmmmm, I wonder if any one ever criticized his technique? As for your linage, do other Japanese Masters recognize it as legal or not? Back in the day I would say not, has this changed, just curious? If I don't recognize your master and system, and I don't, why should others be expected to?

- SHHHHH - Someone might ask what or who gives you the right to ask us those questions.