UFC vs Traditional MA Debate

[Zero]

And actual evidence disapproves your thesis.

So now you are positing that unsolved murder cases are actually cases of self defense where the victim didn't feel it was safe to come forward and testify? That is simply a bridge too far. Give up you're silly thesis; it has been proven false.


Kirk (mobile)

Hehe, yeah I would say it's going a bridge too far saying unsolved "murder" cases are those where the victim didn't feel safe to come forward, generally victims of murder cases aren't in much of a positon to come forward or testify.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Hehe, yeah I would say it's going a bridge too far saying unsolved "murder" cases are those where the victim didn't feel safe to come forward, generally victims of murder cases aren't in much of a positon to come forward or testify.

Unless it's from beyond the grave.

 

[Zero]

Hehe! Hey, anything's possible, particularly on this forum where members are able to block their own kicks

 

[Mauthos]

Hey we all know the true question is MMA vs TMA vs Ameri-do-te...

Hang on...

We also all know the answer to that one

 

[Flying Crane]

Not quite sure of what you are saying here or whether my description of Bas' style was not complete. Yes, my TMA system is almost opposite of what Bas was doing. Unless you are built like a bull, and most people are not, fighting like that against someone like Bas would see you demolished. His training is such that he is prepared to take your best shot as he closes in and he is big enough and strong enough to do that and that is one of his qualities that made him heavyweight champion.

If I had to tackle someone like Bas there is no way I could absorb the power of his strike. I reckon someone from a style that tries to dominate the centreline such as WC would be swamped. That leaves the outside and that is where I would try to be. In a way this is hypothetical. I, as an amateur with no claims to being a great fighter am trying to work out how I would tackle a former world heavyweight champion. It just is extremely improbable and without decrying TMA I was conceding that Bas (MMA) was better than me (TMA). Apart from any thing else he is a couple of inches taller, about 25 kilos heavier and 15 years younger.

But, having said that, in a sporting context, someone from a TMA, physically matched to Bas, might engage and choose to tackle him head on. Without extremely good ground skills, they still wouldn't match him.

Fortunately Bas is not your typical MMA fighter. Most typical MMA guys are training for the fun and fitness which is the same as most TMA practitioners. Put one up against the other and it could go either way, depending on the person. I have no dog in this fight. TMA ... MMA, who cares as long as we are up off the couch and training? :asian:

OK, if the comparison is against Bas specifically, then I don't see much to disagree with. I actually put in a lot of hours of training each week, but I also won't pretend to be up to the level of an elite MMA athlete. I don't know much about Bas, I don't follow MMA at all, but I am comfortable recognizing that I would probabaly be outclassed by him in a face-off. So there's a difference between recognizing when you are outclassed by an individual, vs. a difference between training methods (MMA vs TMA) or how one uses the skills acquired in such training.

The approach to combat that your system tends to take is one thing. However, I believe you can step outside of what is "typical" and use your skills in any way that you have a vision for, for what is possible. Perhaps your experience with Bas can be a catalyst to help you explore this kind of approach. You can also use those skills very aggressively, you can just charge in swinging, learn to do it quickly, explosively, with authority, and you'll find that it can be extremely effective. Even against people who are bigger, who you might otherwise think would have the advantage over you. If you get the jump and start hitting, and keep on hitting, most people have a very difficult time dealing with that and they will go down. You can take your skills and figure out how to do this. That's what I was getting at. That's not a specifically MMA skill. That's just a skill, plain and simple, and you can use your TMA training to figure out how to do that as well.

 

[rframe]

My art rules! Your art drools!

 

[Steve]

Nocturnal, I gotta admit I am with Frankie here, I am struggling to follow you or see how a street punk with noting to loose would be more of a threat than a trained MMAist who has something or everyting to loose? I have a career, life aspirations and goals and plenty to loose and I am going to fight like hell (and have done) if required when faced with a low life street punk with noting to loose but bent on doing me harm.

Frankie?

 

[frank raud]

Frankie?

Yo, me and Zero, we buds, homies, like bros, capiche?

 

[nocturnal_]

And actual evidence disapproves your thesis.

So now you are positing that unsolved murder cases are actually cases of self defense where the victim didn't feel it was safe to come forward and testify? That is simply a bridge too far. Give up you're silly thesis; it has been proven false.

"There are no rules on the street" is contrary to actual law, research by sociologists, and actual evidence.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk (mobile)

Where did I mention about self defense in this thread? It's a case of fighting, not self defense.

Just to reiterate the point that Zero made, murder victims can't come forward.

Most assault victims (especially in third world countries where there are no CCTVs in the street) can't identify their attackers. How are they supposed to report somebody they can't identify to the police? All they can say it's a medium size dark-haired man about 6 feet tall. And you suppose the police are able to find the suspects from this kind of information? Even in places with CCTV, sometimes the face is unclear.

 

[nocturnal_]

Thanks, that clarifies for me somewhat what you had meant by "mentality". Undeniably there are huge differences between a street fight scenario a SD scenario and a sanctioned tournament. However (and conceeding and acknowledging the benefits of pressure/RBSD training) I would hope mental fortitude and experience obtained from high level competition and training can go a long way to how a person acquits themself in a "real"/street fight also. I say "hope" as I only go on my own experience and those few others I am aware of who have been faced with "real" events. That said from my own observations even the best tournament fighters are often lacking in basic SD/awareness/avoidance skills - that is just not something they have focused on - but this is different to how they go when in an actual fight itself.

I think if I had the choice of trying to jump someone like Bas Rutten or the late great Andy Hug or a street punk his size (I am heavyweight division myself) I would take the street punk. That said, I have been a hunter for many years and in different environments so would like to think my rifle/marksmanship skills can line up against or above your average soldier and I would put my outdoor/survival skills above many also but I think I would be at a marked disadvantage if I was placed in a firefight alongside and against combat soldiers, the skills would be different and the "experience" and mindset also, so I acknowledge that the environment you "live" and train is of great importance. However, if you are simply talking about how a skilled MMAist or high level fighter would go against a similair sized "street fighter", I would still back the pro fighter in most cases!! To my knowledge, your average thug and street fighter does not spend hours per week training in fighting and conditioning. And when faced with four drug fuelled guys weilding chains and steel bars in the back street of some thrid world country I think the reaction of a pro fighter or a street hood would the same - run like s"*t!!

Also, I am glad you live in a safe first world country now, I have lived in a few first world countries myself were there are regular severe beatings and worse when you go down the wrong streets and killings are common-place, some of the under developed countries I have been in have seemed the safest to me.

Zero, I found you the most open-minded and reasonable person in this discussion. You're able to see different point of views and state your argument with reasons. I respect you for that.

Yes, I had the experience of running away from people with sticks and knives chasing me. Not something that I would like to experience again. And yes, I think a UFC fighter would also run from this situation.

Things like murder and assault in third world country are normally not solved. Most aren't even reported. And only a fraction of the ones reported to the police make it to the media. The police and the media don't care unless if the victim is a famous celebrity, a high profile politician or a foreigner from a first world country.

I did mention (in one of the earliest post) that if both fighters are of the same age, same size/weight and have same amount of training, the ones trained for competition will be disadvantaged in the street. Of course, I agree that if the competition fighter has significantly more training, it's a different scenario.

My point is: People have been praising UFC fighters being the best fighters even in the street because the amount of training they have. Let's say a street thug (of the same size and age) has the same amount of training hours per week as the UFC fighter, don't you think the street thug has some advantages?

 

[nocturnal_]

So, behaving as a sociopathic thug is acceptable to your training? Your instructor must be so proud of you. Interesting, as in another thread, you wrote such things as "Right amount of discipline & philosophy stuff (not too much, just enough)" regarding Shotokan and Shaolin Kung fu and "Too much time spent on the philosophical & ritual stuff" regarding Aikido. Nowhere do you point out where you were taught that extreme unprovoked violence is acceptable because, afterall, it is "the streetz". What school of martial arts teaches that?

One of my Wing Chun instructors taught me (and some other students as well) about pretending to be scared and not wanting to fight, and then suddenly launch a sneaky pre-emptive strike. While you see this as a negative thing, I see this as a very positive thing. If you want to act gentlemanly in a street fight, then it's your choice. I would never act gentlemanly in a street fight.

I've launched a pre-emptive strike against a mugger that threatened me with a beer bottle. So I find this teaching about pre-emptive strikes very useful.

 

[lklawson]

Where did I mention about self defense in this thread? It's a case of fighting, not self defense.

I'm sorry, you seem to think there's a debate here. There isn't. Actual evidence has crushed your thesis. In the classical Scientific Method you should abandon your Thesis and create a new one which fits the known facts.

But we both know that won't happen.

Which still means that there's not going to be a "debate."

Just to reiterate the point that Zero made, murder victims can't come forward.

You're going to try to make hay from what was obviously an abbreviated sentence due to posting from my phone? Seriously? I mistakenly assumed that it would be obvious to anyone reading that the "victim" being referred to was the one who was the target of the assault which you apparently seemed to be claiming was the survivor and the attacker being labeled as a "murderer." In any case, I'm not going to argue it either. The point still stands; it's an absurd suggestion.

Most assault victims (especially in third world countries where there are no CCTVs in the street) can't identify their attackers. How are they supposed to report somebody they can't identify to the police? All they can say it's a medium size dark-haired man about 6 feet tall. And you suppose the police are able to find the suspects from this kind of information? Even in places with CCTV, sometimes the face is unclear.

Which has less than jack-squat to do with your now disproven thesis that there are "no rules" on "the street."

Thanks for playing. "Tell him about his parting gifts, Johnny."

 

[lklawson]

Let's say a street thug (of the same size and age) has the same amount of training hours per week as the UFC fighter

While you're at it, posit that the "street thug" also has a ray gun and rides a flying pink unicorn.

Seriously, you are, again, stretching far beyond the bounds of reasonableness to try to support what is unsupportable. To whit:

1. There actually are usually "rules" while "on the street"
2. Actual evidence shows that a MMA trained fighter doesn't have any significant disadvantage "on the street"
3. Distracting with irrelevancies such as CCTV and witness reliability doesn't change the above.

Why do you insist on arguing this? Are you so insecure in your "Traditional" martial art? No one is asking you to concede that any given TMA is incapable of producing "on the street" results; only to abandon your claim that MMA produces "disadvantaged" fighters because it is contrary to all available evidence.

Few (if any) are arguing a reason why this may be true. It is irrelevant if one single element of MMA training is responsible or not; technique selection, training methodology, raw number of hours training, physical fitness, etc. It's irrelevant to this point.

 

[nocturnal_]

Which has less than jack-squat to do with your now disproven thesis that there are "no rules" on "the street."

Please explain the existence/usefulness of the rules on the street if the victim can't identify the attacker. How is the 'law-offender' going to be prosecuted (thus being subjected to the law/rules) if he/she can't be identified?

 

[_JLC_]

Not quite sure of what you are saying here or whether my description of Bas' style was not complete. Yes, my TMA system is almost opposite of what Bas was doing. Unless you are built like a bull, and most people are not, fighting like that against someone like Bas would see you demolished. His training is such that he is prepared to take your best shot as he closes in and he is big enough and strong enough to do that and that is one of his qualities that made him heavyweight champion.

If I had to tackle someone like Bas there is no way I could absorb the power of his strike. I reckon someone from a style that tries to dominate the centreline such as WC would be swamped. That leaves the outside and that is where I would try to be. In a way this is hypothetical.

But, having said that, in a sporting context, someone from a TMA, physically matched to Bas, might engage and choose to tackle him head on. Without extremely good ground skills, they still wouldn't match him.

Fortunately Bas is not your typical MMA fighter. Most typical MMA guys are training for the fun and fitness which is the same as most TMA practitioners. Put one up against the other and it could go either way, depending on the person. I have no dog in this fight. TMA ... MMA, who cares as long as we are up off the couch and training? :asian:

Big PUNCHES seem to be the easiest to block...

(3minutes onward).

Obviously Bas can and would also kick if someone blocked his punch but still! Food for thought. The guy in the video is no fighter (the weight lifter), but someone his strength and size would punch pretty darn hard regardless!

 

[lklawson]

Please explain the existence/usefulness of the rules on the street if the victim can't identify the attacker. How is the 'law-offender' going to be prosecuted (thus being subjected to the law/rules) if he/she can't be identified?

"Rules" govern what is and is not acceptable behavior.

 

[K-man]

Big PUNCHES seem to be the easiest to block...

(3minutes onward).

Obviously Bas can and would also kick if someone blocked his punch but still! Food for thought. The guy in the video is no fighter (the weight lifter), but someone his strength and size would punch pretty darn hard regardless!

I think the difference is getting hit by a car or hit by a bus. Both are likely to hurt.
But in reality, that deflection would be pushing to even deflect Bas' first punch. Then you have the second and the third in short succession.
There is also a huge difference in the way the power lifter was hitting compared with Bas' hitting. The first guy wasn't using his body at all. He was just punching using the shoulder. I would estimate the power of his punch at about half, at most, Bas'. He uses his whole body. Take a look at this video and tell me if you would take a chance on using Bong Sau (if that is the correct term).
[video]www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2JhhzYqaB8 [/video]

 

[Cyriacus]

Big PUNCHES seem to be the easiest to block...

(3minutes onward).

Obviously Bas can and would also kick if someone blocked his punch but still! Food for thought. The guy in the video is no fighter (the weight lifter), but someone his strength and size would punch pretty darn hard regardless!

I feel the need to mention that theyre a little bit too far away from each other. Unless the big guy likes hitting stuff by leaning in at the waist in order to be able to reach.

 

[Grenadier]

My point is: People have been praising UFC fighters being the best fighters even in the street because the amount of training they have. Let's say a street thug (of the same size and age) has the same amount of training hours per week as the UFC fighter, don't you think the street thug has some advantages?

If a street thug has had that kind of intensive training, then what is he doing wasting his time being a street thug? For that matter, how many street thugs have black belts in various martial arts styles? Golden Gloves awards? Hmm...

For that matter, if a street thug has had the same amount of education as someone who holds a PhD in mechanical engineering, would he have an advantage in the "real world?" If he has that much education, what is he doing wasting his time being a street thug? For that matter, how many street thugs have PhD's in science or engineering? Law degrees? Medical degrees? Hmm...

 

[nocturnal_]

If a street thug has had that kind of intensive training, then what is he doing wasting his time being a street thug? For that matter, how many street thugs have black belts in various martial arts styles? Golden Gloves awards? Hmm...

They wouldn't train any proper styles that reward belts or golden gloves. But many of them, especially in poor countries/cities/areas, fight almost every day. And those fights are no-rules fights/brawls with other thugs, often with weapons involved. This can be categorized as training.

For that matter, if a street thug has had the same amount of education as someone who holds a PhD in mechanical engineering, would he have an advantage in the "real world?" If he has that much education, what is he doing wasting his time being a street thug? For that matter, how many street thugs have PhD's in science or engineering? Law degrees? Medical degrees? Hmm...

In poor areas of third world countries, many uneducated young men just looking for fights/brawls to release their aggression and frustration. It's like drugs to them. Of course, when they get older, most of them stop fighting as they come to a realization that there's nothing rewarding with brawling every day. But the new batches of aggressive young men will replace them. It's a continuous cycle.

I'm not saying that every single one of them are top notch fighters. I do believe that some of them (the ones that really fight almost everyday & survive) have the advantage in a street fight against the average UFC fighter of same size, weight, age when the fight is in the street with no rules. Of course, the UFC fighter will beat them easily in the octagon with all the rules.