UFC proves KF useless

[14 Kempo]

I think there is a general misconception with respect to wu shu or any other traditional arts being ineffective when compared to UFC. UFC fights are great, but they are done in a controlled environment. Yes they are great, they are brutal, and perhaps violent even, but it is not a street fight. They are great fights, with excellent and very talented fighters, but once again not a street fight. I dont think UFC proves anything to that sort, UFC is great to watch but I would not go as far as saying that it proves KF useless.

I agree here, UFC is a controlled environment with professional athletes at the helm ... if we follow the lines that UFC proves KF useless, do we not then have to say that UFC, Matt Hughes in particular, proved pure Gracie Jujitsu useless? Royce Gracie surely looked useless in thier fight, but I wouldn't go as far as to say the art is useless. There is nothing that says having KF training harms a person in the ring, in fact I would venture to say it sure as heck couldn't hurt. UFC, afterall, is a mixed martial art and I believe it has been proven that you need to be well rounded to survive. More and more we see that pure arts won't hold up when up against a fighter cross trained in many arts.

 

[zDom]

More and more we see that pure arts won't hold up when up against a fighter cross trained in many arts.

I think you are going too far in this conclusion.

While this may be true at the very top of the MMA sport world, it doesn't necessarily prove true at other levels below the top competitive level.

There are many other factors involved other than the selection of a training curriculum. For example, there are several guys here in my town who have gone the MMA route — some weightlifting, some grappling, some kicking, some boxing — for at least as long as I have trained traditional martial arts (some even longer) who will tell you they don't want to get in a ring with me.

Furthermore, all those interested in reaching the top in the MMA sport world are taking the path that has been demonstrated to work. While they may have started purely in one system, they (rightfully) conclude that to reach the top levels, they need some crosstraining.

But it is possible that someone training purely in one of the traditional mixed martial art systems that cover the full range of fighting ranges — say, Jeet Kune Do or hapkido, for example — could conceivably do just as well as those who are taking the typical modern MMA path.

Just because it hasn't been done yet doesn't mean it can't be done. It just means that someone with the ability to do so hasn't given it a shot yet.

For thousands and thousands of years it was proven that man can't fly. Lots of people tried, failed, even died trying.

Then, about 100 years ago, someone proved that we CAN.

Up until that point, most people figured they should stick with the proven, the tried and true, methods of travel: motorcars, horses, ships...

 

[14 Kempo]

Thank you, you made my point ... you say it clearly within your remarks ...

But it is possible that someone training purely in one of the traditional mixed martial art systems that cover the full range of fighting ranges — say, Jeet Kune Do or hapkido, for example — could conceivably do just as well as those who are taking the typical modern MMA path.

... my comments were ...

More and more we see that pure arts won't hold up when up against a fighter cross trained in many arts.

... examples of pure martial arts, to me, would be: Tae Kwon Do, Shotokan, Judo, Karate, Kung Fu, Jujitsu, etc. Arts that stress a single way of fighting, whether it be stand up, take down or grappling.

 

[dmax999]

... examples of pure martial arts, to me, would be: Tae Kwon Do, Shotokan, Judo, Karate...

Ugg, I thought this was a discussion about Kung Fu and MMA? I wouldn't dare to use those styles vs MMA as any kind of example of Kung Fu against MMA. Kung Fu encompasses much much more then any one of those styles. While I'm sure the ones I've included in the quote are quite good at what they are intended for, they have nothing on the range of applications almost any kung fu style has.

 

[Rook]

No, I believe my kung fu would do fine on the ground, but I would have to use techniques that would be 'cheating' in any sport situation, as the window for defense would be very short and dangerous (i.e., kung fu is not really designed as a sport--so at a disadvantage when constrained by rules)

No, just intensifies the time frame--pinch, bite, break bones/joints through small circle chin na, gouge, etc.--NOW. Talk about not playing around with a fight

1. Can you give even one example when a competent sports grappler or MMAist was defeated by a TMAist?
2. Can you give even one example of when a competent sports grappler or MMAist was stopped or defeated through any of the tactics you have described?
3. Have you ever actually tried to use these techniques on anyone with real training in sports grappling or MMA? Video?
4. Did you actually read any of the thread?

 

[Rook]

I agree here, UFC is a controlled environment with professional athletes at the helm ... if we follow the lines that UFC proves KF useless, do we not then have to say that UFC, Matt Hughes in particular, proved pure Gracie Jujitsu useless? Royce Gracie surely looked useless in thier fight, but I wouldn't go as far as to say the art is useless. There is nothing that says having KF training harms a person in the ring, in fact I would venture to say it sure as heck couldn't hurt. UFC, afterall, is a mixed martial art and I believe it has been proven that you need to be well rounded to survive. More and more we see that pure arts won't hold up when up against a fighter cross trained in many arts.

I suspect that pure GJJ was dismissed as the optimum form of fighting a long time before Hughes beat Royce. In point of fact, Hughes and Royce are both technically more MMAists than practioners of one pure art - both trained in all of the big four arts prior to the match, and Hughes proved to be better in all parts of the game than Royce was.

 

[matt.m]

was helio not defeated by kimura? Also, the Gracies are not good against Judo players as well. From my understanding they do a good job of losing to them.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Just a note:

My late Tai Chi instructor, Mr. Tri of Sacramento, studied and taught Praying Mantis for 50 years and I think he, in both manner (disposition) and abilities, demonstrated the "usefullness" of Kung Fu. I do know that in a demonstration during class (when I was early twenties and could do all manner of TKD kicks quickly and crisply), he deflected my kicks and put me off of balance as easily as a BJJ expert of today would have.

 

[Andrew Green]

Kimura also had a huge weight (50lbs?) advantage over Helio, so I'm not sure that is the best example to make that point.

The Gracie's have done very well against Judo fighters, there are a few videos of them visiting Judo schools around, even playing by Judo rules.

But, Judo has been a international sport for a lot longer, it is an olympic event, and there are a lot more people doing it, and with a lot higher competition.

Royce vs Yoshida is a interesting match up though. Yoshida is a Olympic Gold medalist, so he knows what he is doing. The first match which I beli8eve was grappling only ended in a controversal win for Yoshida, although he very clearly was dominating, there is doubt as to whether Royce was actually "out"

2nd fight was MMA, and was a draw as it was decided that if no one won, then no one won. No judges decission. While a draw, Royce definately dominated the fight.

Rules make the fights, I have no doubt that under Judo rules, Judo has an advantage, under BJJ rules, BJJ has an advantage, under MMA a MMA fighter has an advantage.

Truth is no BJJ fighter is going to get to the top of the Judo latter, and no Judo fighter is going to get to the top of the BJJ ladder. In MMA both have shown effectiveness, but there are very few Judo fighters that are successful in MMA.

 

[kidswarrior]

1. Can you give even one example when a competent sports grappler or MMAist was defeated by a TMAist?

'Give an example', as in a documented fight, with spectators and a referee? MMA/sports are intended to be watched, and therefore by nature automatically documented. Self defense situations often go unreported--especially if the winner wishes to avoid legal troubles.

2. Can you give even one example of when a competent sports grappler or MMAist was stopped or defeated through any of the tactics you have described?

What I've described are for emergencies, not to be entertainment or a competitive spectacle, so there's often (in my experience) no reliable crowd to observe/document the event. If there is a crowd, it's usually the other guy's friends.

3. Have you ever actually tried to use these techniques on anyone with real training in sports grappling or MMA? Video?

Anyone who uses a technique which could be considered as falling under the category of maiming by law enforcement (biting, gouging to soft tissue, deliberately hyperextending joints, and even groin strikes now in California), is risking almost certain incarceration and civil litigation. Who would admit such a thing, much less document it?

4. Did you actually read any of the thread?

Thread is MMA vs. Kung Fu for reality of self defense, correct? How does my post veer from that?

I am not saying grappling/MMA is not effective for fighting, either sport or street. But I am taking exception to putting the dialogue into an either/or comparison with kung fu, which until very recently (competition wu shu) was for self defense and had no sport component.

Best to you in your chosen martial training.

 

[kidswarrior]

I do not train in, or know much about CMAs, so I'll refrain from comment on whats incorporated into their material. I can comment though on the arts that I train in. As I've said every time this debate comes up, I personally feel that there is something that can be gained from both the MMA and TMA style of fighting. I've 'borrowed' a number of things from the MMA school of thought, and added it into my own workouts.

I'd like to post this, for discussion.

Quote:
1. Butting with the head.
2. Eye gouging of any kind.
3. Biting.
4. Hair pulling.
5. Fish hooking.
6. Groin attacks of any kind.
7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
8. Small joint manipulation.
9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
13. Grabbing the clavicle.
14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
21. Spitting at an opponent.
22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
23. Holding the ropes or the fence.
24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
25. Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
26. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
27. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
29. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
30. Interference by the corner.
31. Throwing in the towel during competition.

These are the current fouls taken directly from the UFC homepage. Now, I don't feel that because someone can't eye gouge, hit the groin, etc., that they should say, "See, if I can't do those, I can't win." However, it is one less tool, that someone has to work with. And if that tool is the one thats going to make or break the outcome, well, that should speak for itself. The UFC and MMA events are sports, held in a controlled environment. If the saying, "You fight like you train" holds true, is the MMA fighter, in the street, going to fall back on that eye gouge, or are they mentally conditioned not to, due to the way they train for the ring? I've rolled and have tapped people, without having to fall back on an eye gouge. But, had this been a life and death struggle, it'd be nice to fall back on the eye gouge. Pretty much, its going to come down to who has the better skill of the two.

Mike

Yes, exactly: the list of fouls in the rulebook are some of the best tools in the 'emergency kit' available on the street.

Maybe I've been seeing this all wrong and should heed my own advice: it's not either one, or the other. It's taking my base art and adding from the other to fill perceived gaps for the 21st century streets. And, it's training in these anti-rule tactics so I won't have to think about it when the time comes.

Thanks, Mike, for adding fresh perspective.

 

[kidswarrior]

1-Very quickly the mma guys found what worked best for the ufc cage environment and stuck to it until now they have it down to a science PERIOD. (jujitsu, and limited stand up striking)
2- Many if not most of the mma guys could not hold thier own in a professional boxing match or muay thai match and vice versa (funny you dont see any mma guys going for the heavyweight boxing title )
3- If the rules changed to allow knifes the mma guys would be a lot more hesisitant try and grapple and would add sayoc or pekiti or some other fma to thier repotoire (the rules dictate the competition as in any game or sport unless you cheat)
4- any martial artist mma or tma may win, lose or get killed on the street depending on the circumstance (weapons, multiple opponents, surprise attacks, etc when there is no referree to stop the action)
5- tma people in general need to train harder , but the tma training isnt geared towards success in ufc, it MAY help on the street where you can do whatever and MIGHT be fighting for your life
6- if ufc were truly fighting not sport when they get the arm bar they wouldnt stop at a tap they would break the arm, however in sports even boxing and football you try not to cause permanent damage where as when you are really FIGHTING for you or your families LIFE you would break the arm, gouge out an eye or use a knife , which are against the rules of any sport

Nice summary or the differences between any sport and street survival. On the street, there are no kudos for sportsmanship.

 

[14 Kempo]

I guess someone should add: UFC proves KF useless "in a sanctioned cage fight" to the title of this thread ... LOL

 

[Rook]

was helio not defeated by kimura? Also, the Gracies are not good against Judo players as well. From my understanding they do a good job of losing to them.

With the modern grappling scene the way it is, every major sports grappling art has plenty of losses to every other major sports grappling art. If you go to the forums where people discuss such things, you could probably get a 100 page list of catch fighters beating shootfighters or Judoists beating BJJ or BJJ beating Judo.

Kimura was the most sucessful Judo competitor in the history of the sport and had a nearly 50 lb weight advantage over Helio. Kimura was a natural athlete while Helio had been taken out of school and barred from exercise because of dizy spells. Kimura trained with the creme de la creme of the Judo world while Helio trained with his brother. The list could easily go on. Its hardly a match that woiuld prove the superiority of Judo.

 

[DrJBN]

Ok, I get a little long here, but its my first post.

A neural network is a mathematical model designed to represent the function of some area of the brain or learning mechanism. Most, but not all, use a variant of “error correction” where something is input to the model, it makes a prediction, that prediction is compared to reality, and the mathematics in the model are updated to reduce the error in the prediction. (stay with me, this gets better…I think).

Many of these models follow a “gradient descent” on error. That is, they start off making big mistakes, the math in the model is updated, and those mistakes get smaller and smaller until there is no more error. Now, the algorithm used is important. Think about that error as a big hill with the top being the most error and the bottom the least. The model starts at the top of the hill and wants to get to the bottom. How it progresses is determined by the particular algorithm. Suppose, to anthropomorphize further, the algorithm says, “Step north, A: look around, B: find downward slope, C: step that direction…goto A:” That will get to the bottom of the hill, most of the time.

The problem is that the steepest path observable at the top of the hill doesn’t always lead to the bottom. It might just go to a hole or valley in the side. The model will walk into that hole because the algorithm tells it to look for a downward slope and all around it is uphill. It is stuck. It can’t move. It has found a “local minimum” and believes it to be the “global minimum.” Problems with local minima are issues in neural computation…and in martial arts.

View traditional martial arts and MMA/UFC/PRIDE (insert favorite group here) from that viewpoint. Becoming the most effective fighter possible is the bottom of the hill. Some use the traditional route as their algorithm, others take the MMA route. The MMA route is a much steeper route, your skill in defense increases much faster than in a traditional art where the path is much less steep. This rapid progress gives the illusion of the overall superiority. Indeed, all things being equal in terms of effort from the practitioner, the steeper route will get you down the hill faster.

But, I do not believe it leads to the bottom of the hill. The traditional route may never get one as far down the hill as the mma route either because the slope could be too lean and there isn’t enough time. What I think is needed for optimum progress is crossover. In my situation, I was traditional for years, then made lots of progress when I moved into mma settings, but later that progress slowed. I then found could progress again as I went back into my traditional training with an eye toward practicality garnered from experience. Consider the background of the founders of our “modern” traditional arts and they had probably proceeded further down the hill than most of us when they started their “art.” In our times, we don’t have that background and we start further up the hill, making slow progress unless we try something more ‘brutal’ (for lack of a better term) for a bit.

I strongly suspect that MMA/UFC/PRIDE type fighting will begin to start to show technique and form more similar to traditional martial arts. It is simply necessary for progress. Consider that championships turn over every almost every 2 fights. That indicates a group of people who are all piled in the hole.. gone about as far as a particular path can take them and of equal ability, separated mostly by the luck of the night.

Now look at fighters, current ones, who can hang on to their titles like Liddell for instance. Am I the only one who noticed that he was fighting Ortiz in their last bout out of what was essentially a sloppy horse stance? Hughes lost to Georges St. Pierre and Georges was almost (from a matter of perspective) fighting and old-style point game with power. I think MMA will evolve in the next 5 to 10 years and we will begin to see traditional martial arts being used as they were intended, not as they are often taught or practiced.

Just an opinion,
DrJBN

 

[zDom]

Great post, DrJBN.

Definately some food for thought that I will mull over — but I think I agree, very much. You have stated well some of the opions that have been rolling around in my head for some time.

And welcome to MT

(Heckuva first post )

 

[kidswarrior]

Welcome, DrJBN! Certainly a closely reasoned first post.

 

[evenflow1121]

That is a very good post indeed, one of the best in this thread if not the best and very well argued, though I do agree that MMA will continue to evolve, I dont really see forms in the evolution of MMA. In fact, to an extent forms or kata would go contrary to a lot of MMA practitioners.

 

[DrJBN]

That is a very good post indeed, one of the best in this thread if not the best and very well argued, though I do agree that MMA will continue to evolve, I dont really see forms in the evolution of MMA. In fact, to an extent forms or kata would go contrary to a lot of MMA practitioners.

Thanks for the fine words on my post. By "forms" I simple meant "shape", e.g., similarity in posture etc.. not kata.

Byron
DrJBN

 

[James Kovacich]

was helio not defeated by kimura? Also, the Gracies are not good against Judo players as well. From my understanding they do a good job of losing to them.

Not so true. When Gracie Ju Jitsu was new to the public, the Judo players fell "nearly" as fast as Karate players. Judoists evolved as did the MMA'ers did that they "now" know how to combat BJJ.

Hers a twist. Why not train MMA first for a solid base and then figure which direction to pursue as a specialty?