Two schools pull books after protest

Quite frankly we'd be just pleased if the schools taught them to read and write anything at all. The governments messed up the education system so thoroughly parents would be pleased if their children managed to learn anything at all. Oh and it started with the Tory government before people say it was the socialists! Maggie Thatcher ruined a great many things here.
 
Has anyone even looked at the books?

I see a LOT of assumptions that these are sex-ed books.

Why is it that everyone assumes that if it has two men or two women it automatically means it's a diagram of mudsliding and rug-munching? It's the acceptance of a relationship between people.

Would any of you who posted that it's inappropriate complain about the handsome prince rescuing the princess? Or the See Spot book where Neighbor Joe's Mother is white and father black?

Tell ya what, I'm going to refrain from posting further until I can see the books for myself.
 
Ah, but I will post this from Wikipedia:

And Tango Makes Three is a 2005 children's book written by Peter Parnell and Justin Richardson and illustrated by Henry Cole. The book is based on the true story of Roy and Silo, two male Chinstrap Penguins in New York's Central Park Zoo who for a time formed a couple. The book follows part of this time in the penguins' lives. This book teaches children that it's okay to be in, or know, someone who has a "non-traditional" family.
The pair were observed trying to hatch a rock that resembled an egg. When zookeepers realized that Roy and Silo were both male, it occurred to them to give them the second egg of a mixed-sex penguin couple, a couple which had previously been unable to successfully hatch two eggs at once. Roy and Silo hatched and raised the healthy young chick, a female named "Tango" by keepers, together as a family.
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And this also from Wiki:
"On the tallest mountain above (a) town," a young prince still has not married, as is the custom in his kingdom. His mother, a grouchy Queen insists he must find a princess to marry. The prince tells his mom "Very well, Mother.... I must say, though, I've never cared much for princesses." His mother marches princess after princess through the castle, but they fail to interest the prince. After a while along comes princess Madaleine escorted by her brother Prince Lee, who causes the prince to exclaim, "What a wonderful prince!" The prince immediately falls in love with the other prince, and they begin marriage preparations at once. The story ends with a kiss between the two kings.
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Empty Hands said:
That is pretty funny. We'll have to do away with "Snow White and the Seven Dwarves", "Cinderella", "King Arthur", "A Thousand and One Nights", and a whole host of other stories and movies currently being enjoyed by kindergardeners everywhere.

Certainly kindergardeners shouldn't be exposed to violence either, right? Well, there goes all those stories again.
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Did you miss the word "Overt" or just choose not to read it
 
Xue Sheng said:
Did you miss the word "Overt" or just choose not to read it
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No, I didn't miss it. Most of those books have big fairy tale weddings at some point. "Snow White" has a big ol' kiss as a main plot point. How much more "overt" can you get? Or is it only homosexual relationships, no matter how gently put, that are "overt"?
 
Empty Hands said:
No, I didn't miss it. Most of those books have big fairy tale weddings at some point. "Snow White" has a big ol' kiss as a main plot point. How much more "overt" can you get? Or is it only homosexual relationships, no matter how gently put, that are "overt"?
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Big juicy hetero smoochies and handsome men rescuing frail women ... nothing overt about that. ;) :whip1:
 
Pretty sure we didn't do any fairy tales when I was in kindergarten-know for a fact that my son and daughter didn't.......plenty of kids books, sure, but no Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, Rumplestilskin, Rose Red, Little Red Riding Hood, or any such like-no smoochies for any of us in kindergarten, hetero or otherwise, except for the one I stole from Ann Paris, about a million years ago it seems.......

Of course, that didn't keep me from being exposed to them by my parents, and it didn't keep my kids from being exposed to them outside of school either....I don't think that any of thse books belongs in a classroom environment for kids that age.

Part of diversity is respecting differences, not force feeding conformity.
 
Empty Hands said:
No, I didn't miss it. Most of those books have big fairy tale weddings at some point. "Snow White" has a big ol' kiss as a main plot point. How much more "overt" can you get? Or is it only homosexual relationships, no matter how gently put, that are "overt"?
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Aaaah now I see, the veiled accusations begin because you decide to take a small part of my post and use it to make a point that does not exist.

You apparently did miss the gay, lesbian or straight part of the post.

I have not read the book in question so maybe it is harmless if it is much like snow white but I doubt that it is. I would not want then to read the sun also raises either

And since you seem bent on taking this to extremes I will say I would HIGHLY object to the showing of the last tango in Paris in a class full of 5 year olds but a film about Paris of the tango would be fine.

I suggest that you reread my original post and get back to me before you start this type of stuff

What I find interesting in all this is that I did not wee where "Muslim" had anything to do with the complaint other than that is what the parents happen to be but it appears to be ok to practice religious intolerance and point out their religion and try and use it to make a point but their Muslims so that's ok I guess

Let me ask, you have kids?
 
Xue Sheng said:
Aaaah now I see, the veiled accusations begin because you decide to take a small part of my post and use it to make a point that does not exist.

You apparently did miss the gay, lesbian or straight part of the post.
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Uh, no, I wasn't trying to accuse you of anything. Nor did I miss your evenhanded inclusion of all sexual orientations. That was sort of my point. Those stories all have overt heterosexuality in them. You apparently didn't see it that way in your initial response, which is something I'm trying to point out. Fish noticing the water, and all.

Xue Sheng said:
I have not read the book in question so maybe it is harmless if it is much like snow white but I doubt that it is.
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All we know about it is that the prince falls in love with and marries another prince instead of a princess. That is comparable in "overtness" to all the fairy tale love matches I was read when I was that age.

Xue Sheng said:
What I find interesting in all this is that I did not wee where "Muslim" had anything to do with the complaint other than that is what the parents happen to be but it appears to be ok to practice religious intolerance and point out their religion and try and use it to make a point but their Muslims so that's ok I guess
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Your problem is with Big Don then, not me. I was trying to poke holes in his bigotry, not add to it.

Xue Sheng said:
Let me ask, you have kids?
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No. Let me guess, once I have kids, I'll want to start banning books and suddenly agree that homosexual marriage is "overt" while heterosexual marriage isn't? Don't count on it, I'm going to share my values with my children, not be hypocritical on their behalf.
 
Twin Fist said:
do 5 year olds need to know about homosexual marraige?
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Whether they need to or not, they're going to, by virtue of being invited to the homes of children or at least seeing children, or talking, interacting and playing with children that have same sex parents.

Of course, their own parents should explain it to them, not the schools.
 
It's easy to say that teaching acceptance, morality, ethics, sexuality, and so on are the parents' job - because it is. Nonetheless, as a teacher, I can state clearly that many students are not receiving this education at home.

I had a student (7th grade - 12 years old) refuse to work with another student in my class because "I don't work with no slant-eyed chinee".

Some years ago, I had another student (3rd grade - 8 years old) tell me, at a school where I was a substitute, that "I don't have to listen to you. My dad doesn't listen to women, my granddad doesn't listen to women, and I don't listen to women"... apparently, this attitude was not news to the (female) principal of his elementary school, who apologized to me for his attitude and behavior.

Another student at my school discovered that he was gay in 7th grade. He was ostracized - especially when changing clothes for gym - beaten up regularly by a variety of other boys, and was the target of a parent who wanted "that unnatural creature" removed from all of her son's classes - and told him so, every time he was unfortunate enough to cross her path, on or off the school grounds; his parents finally had to file a restraining order.

There are currently 4 pregnant 8th grader girls (13 or 14 years old) in my school - and none of them had gone through 8th grade Health class (where sex ed is taught) prior to becoming pregnant - and every single parent claimed "but... she must have been raped... no way would my child be having sex at this age" - never mind that 2 of the girls' mothers were themselves under 28.

Should the schools be teaching morality? Only to the extent that teachers should be demonstrating it, as appropriate, in their classrooms - by not allowing any behaviors that negatively target or stereotype a person or group - but it's being taught in the schools because, like so many other things, it's not being taught at home in far too many cases.
 
Empty Hands said:
That is pretty funny. We'll have to do away with "Snow White and the Seven Dwarves", "Cinderella", "King Arthur", "A Thousand and One Nights", and a whole host of other stories and movies currently being enjoyed by kindergardeners everywhere.

Certainly kindergardeners shouldn't be exposed to violence either, right? Well, there goes all those stories again.
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OK, so we should have "Billy has two mothers". I suggest we include a few other popular titles, including "Billy has one father and 5 mothers". Don't want to exclude polygamist. Also, "Billy has a father that beats him mother". Can't shelter kids these days. "Billy's mother is a drug addict" is another popular title. How about the classic "Billy's mother used to be his father, and now he has two mothers and one of them is upset about it!".

Let kids learn basic things. They can learn about complicated things later. No need to educate a 5 year old about polygamy, sex changes, violence. He has a lifetime to do that. Lets teach basic skills please! And we wonder why our education system is lagging here in the US.

Now, as to those classics, books have been banned from time to time, as MACaver mentioned. I'd not show my 8 month old certain cartoon movies, and for now, I'm keeping him away from what might be termed frightening images (explosions, graphic violence, etc). Certain classics I'll probably keep away until he is older. Even some Disney movies are a bit frightening for a 5 year old.

Now, specifics. Certain groups of people have different moral values. As adults, you are allowed to make them. Certain cultures have different morals. Thats fine. I don't let different cultures determine my morals, preferences or tastes. For instance, I choose not to eat dog, though many in Viet Nam might choose to do so. I also choose not to eat horse, though some in Japan might choose to do so. I would also prefer not to have literature presented to my 5 year old son describing how Billy's favorite holiday meal is fresh dog. These types of values are cultural, and in some cases, personal. Culturally, we accept stories such as Snow White, Cinderella, King Author. These stories might not be acceptable in some cultures that are matriarchal. For us, these stories have been around for generations, often times highlighting good aspects of humanity, as well as sometimes the bad. As a parent, I reserve the right to "censor", if you will, what comes into my house. I won't let my child have access to certain books until I believe he has the emotional and intellectual stability to handle them properly. If I choose to let a book in that describes normal heterosexual relationships, then I have that right. I also have the right to refuse certain books to come into my house. I realize that sending a kid off to school, you can't please everyone, but you try to take hopefully the least objectional books. Stick some classics in their hands. I prefer not to have my child indoctrinated with anything other than the basics of education. I think reading should be fostered, but at that age, keep the books educational, not questionable. Then again, I'm of the notion that computers should not be introduced for quite a while (5th grade or so), and children not dependent on calculators for math. Somehow, I doubt that will change... I've seen some schools with kids on computers in 1st grade!

(sorry if this is dated, I had a 5 hour break :p)
 
Well, I am not so sure what the mind of a 5 year old is like. I cannot remember being that age. And, I would have to read the books, of course. But, I cannot see how that "Penquin book" can do much harm. It just said that two male penquins somehow managed to get an egg to hatch and so forth. What could be the harm in that? Of course, that might start the children thinking, "What is the mechanics behind the egg coming to be to begin with? Does it just majically appear out of thin air?" That would be problematic.

Also, there is a big difference between some book of a prince marrying some other prince instead of a princess on the one hand, and then some book describing the sex act, that's for sure.

But, yes, kids are just kids. They should not be bothered with any adult ideas. They should just learn easy things -- names of colors, easy games to play, and so forth, very basic things, and by all means they should not be troubled with any thoughts that could give them unease.
 
Empty Hands said:
Uh, no, I wasn't trying to accuse you of anything. Nor did I miss your evenhanded inclusion of all sexual orientations. That was sort of my point. Those stories all have overt heterosexuality in them. You apparently didn't see it that way in your initial response, which is something I'm trying to point out. Fish noticing the water, and all.

All we know about it is that the prince falls in love with and marries another prince instead of a princess. That is comparable in "overtness" to all the fairy tale love matches I was read when I was that age.

Your problem is with Big Don then, not me. I was trying to poke holes in his bigotry, not add to it.

No. Let me guess, once I have kids, I'll want to start banning books and suddenly agree that homosexual marriage is "overt" while heterosexual marriage isn't? Don't count on it, I'm going to share my values with my children, not be hypocritical on their behalf.
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You are adding things to this I am not saying; now I apparently advocate the banning of books because I do not approve of certain books being read to or read by 5 year olds. I wouldn't let them watch many of the cartoons or TV shows out today either so apparently I am also against TV in your opinion.

I have not read the book; if it is about 2 guys that are married and have a life frankly I do not care about it. If it is discussing sex it has no place in a class of 5 year olds. Discussions about sex is what I am referring to as overt not a fall in love get married and live happily ever after. You again appear to have glazed over another reference about not wanting to have "the sun also rises" in a class of 5 year olds. And here’s a great point to omit in your next response, just because I do not feel that the book "the sun also rises" should not be read in to a class of 5 year olds does not mean I want the book banned or to have any book banned for that matter. It means it is not “AGE APPROPRAITE” kid of like you have to know your audience if you are a public speaker, you have to know what books are appropriate for what age.

Kids do not get this stuff like adults do and TOO many adults want to force ADULT views on children, particularly adults without children, and then wonder why children don't get it and then better yet get upset with the kids when they don’t get it. Here is another point you have missed before and will likely miss again. My view is let kids be kids while they have the chance because they will not get that chance again. I will also add that the world is a scary place and the things my kids HAVE to know today I had no clue of when I was their age but when it concerns their safety I am all for it they have to know it.

Should they know that there are couples that are not like mommy and daddy? Sure they should that’s life and my kids do and it was learned at home by seeing some of the friends my wife and I have, heck mommy and daddy are not like their friends mommy and daddy because mommy and daddy come from different countries in my home. But they have NO IDEA what goes on behind close doors of ANY of these couples including my wife and I. They are simply too young to understand, eventually they will need to know, and although approaching the subject with them, when they are older, scares the hell out of me, it will be discussed and it will be discussed at home, not in a book at school. It is not the responsibility of the teacher or the school to teach this to children in my opinion it is the responsibility of the parents.

As to reading a book about same sex marriage to 5 years old; if it is treated like snow white (We are getting into semantics here over overt by the way) then fine let it fly, I do not consider snow white a book that is overt about "SEXUALITY". And likely kids will not see the issue either, their parents might, but the kids won’t, they are 5.

As to the religious point I made that was a general comment to all not just to you but I admit I did not make that clear, sorry about that.

As to kids, you have no IDEA how that will change your views, I sure as heck didn't. As to what it makes you want to do that all depends on your style of parenting I guess. But I will say I would not have cared one bit about this issue if I were in my 20s or early 30s. It amazes me the things that I am concerned about now that I have kids, some of which I made fun of years ago.

Now feel free to call me a book banner or insinuate in some veiled comment something about homophobia or whatever you wish but I have had enough of this.

Have at me.
 
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