Twisting your punch

[skribs]

I do. Many of the people in my class forget about punches in sparring. When both people close in, they check their kicks and back off. I'll just keep moving in throwing punches.

 

[punisher73]

I'm not sure that your information on the full twist is totally accurate. In Okinawa at the Jundokan, Goju Ryu, it was explained that the fist was 'natural', that is a normal alignment about half way between vertical and horizontal. Traditionally Uechi Ryu had virtually no closed fist punches at all and Isshin Ryu have the vertical fist. Shorin Ryu has conflicting information ranging from the near vertical to the full twist depending on where you read about it.
:asian:

It could be a variation on lineage as well. The Goju that I saw, it was explained this way as to the full rotation and targeting the pressure point under the pectoral (thru Morio Higaonna). I also mentioned that some styles do use the 3/4 punch, as it sounds like the Jundokan does. May I ask what the Jundokan's primary target is with that punch? The solar plexus or under the pectoral, or somewhere else?

As to Uechi-Ryu, you are right that they did not have the horizontal twist punch originally. It was a one knuckle punch or spearhand (yes, there are some other configurations used, just sticking with the twisting horizontal motion). Kanei Uechi added the twist punch for beginners in Kanshiwa kata (although, I have been told some schools use the one knuckle punch in it's place and do not use the horizontal punch at all). I also did not mention them in my post because they really don't use that punch as a primary weapon. In fact, you could make a case that it is only a recent addition for beginners before moving on.

Isshin-Ryu uses the vertical punch to the solar plexus, but uses other punches based on height requirements. For example, to hit the bladder they use the horizontal punch palm down to strike it. For striking the face/chin area they use an uppercut.

If you re-read about Shorin-Ryu, I didn't say that they didn't use the horizontal punch. It's just that in the Kyan lineage that punch was used for targets on the main body and to attack a higher target like the face, they changed the punch and used a vertical punch. I'm not sure what some of the other branches of Shorin Ryu do that have incorporated other teachings do.

I'm still not sure where what I posted contradicts what you have said. But, I probably did need to clarify more.

I also still believe that the twisting horizontal punch as we see it throughout ALL of the kata after it was influenced by the Japanese is based more on asthetics than application.

 

[K-man]

It could be a variation on lineage as well. The Goju that I saw, it was explained this way as to the full rotation and targeting the pressure point under the pectoral (thru Morio Higaonna). I also mentioned that some styles do use the 3/4 punch, as it sounds like the Jundokan does. May I ask what the Jundokan's primary target is with that punch? The solar plexus or under the pectoral, or somewhere else?

To be honest, I have no idea what they would call a primary target. Certainly most of Taira Sensei's punches are one knuckle punches. Flat punch to the side of the head and jaw perhaps but palm heel was often used there. Flat punches weren't big deal except in drills.

As to Uechi-Ryu, you are right that they did not have the horizontal twist punch originally. It was a one knuckle punch or spearhand (yes, there are some other configurations used, just sticking with the twisting horizontal motion). Kanei Uechi added the twist punch for beginners in Kanshiwa kata (although, I have been told some schools use the one knuckle punch in it's place and do not use the horizontal punch at all). I also did not mention them in my post because they really don't use that punch as a primary weapon. In fact, you could make a case that it is only a recent addition for beginners before moving on.

Makes sense to me.

Isshin-Ryu uses the vertical punch to the solar plexus, but uses other punches based on height requirements. For example, to hit the bladder they use the horizontal punch palm down to strike it. For striking the face/chin area they use an uppercut.

Mmm! That's about the only target (bladder) I teach using horizontal fist. The first inkling I had of using a near vertical fist to attack the solar plexus was an early Dillman video which promoted the Okinawan style natural fist.

If you re-read about Shorin-Ryu, I didn't say that they didn't use the horizontal punch. It's just that in the Kyan lineage that punch was used for targets on the main body and to attack a higher target like the face, they changed the punch and used a vertical punch. I'm not sure what some of the other branches of Shorin Ryu do that have incorporated other teachings do.

I'm still not sure where what I posted contradicts what you have said. But, I probably did need to clarify more.

Nothing here contradicts anything. I think we are on the same song sheet.

I also still believe that the twisting horizontal punch as we see it throughout ALL of the kata after it was influenced by the Japanese is based more on asthetics than application.

Again, I totally agree. I think all the 'traditional' karate was changed by the style of Japanese teaching which is highly structured, rather than the less formal Okinawan method.

I haven't seen much of Higaonna's work beyond his early kata and bunkai explanation that was very similar to what was subsequently adopted by the Goju Kai.

 

[seasoned]

I'm not sure that your information on the full twist is totally accurate. In Okinawa at the Jundokan, Goju Ryu, it was explained that the fist was 'natural', that is a normal alignment about half way between vertical and horizontal. Traditionally Uechi Ryu had virtually no closed fist punches at all and Isshin Ryu have the vertical fist. Shorin Ryu has conflicting information ranging from the near vertical to the full twist depending on where you read about it.
:asian:

If by natural you mean, as the arm hangs at the side and swings as in walking, if we were to stop the arm at the top end of the swing forward and make a fist, it would form a 3/4" punch. In my chamber the fist is closed with the thumb and baby finger both touching the rib cage with elbow pointing downward.

When I first learned the chamber it was palm up closed fist to fist out to target palm down creating a full twist. In time as lineage changed so did the configuration.

But, I digress

 

[ballen0351]

To me its natural to twist my punch. I was taught thatway as a child in my very first class and have been taught and trained that way all my life. So I never thought about it. It just is for me.

 

[seasoned]

I can't argue there, been doing it for a long time myself.

 

[K-man]

If by natural you mean, as the arm hangs at the side and swings as in walking, if we were to stop the arm at the top end of the swing forward and make a fist, it would form a 3/4" punch. In my chamber the fist is closed with the thumb and baby finger both touching the rib cage with elbow pointing downward.

When I first learned the chamber it was palm up closed fist to fist out to target palm down creating a full twist. In time as lineage changed so did the configuration.

But, I digress

Really interesting point. If you do what you described above, forgetting the chamber for the minute, you have all the principles of the Systema punch. If you change the fist to strike with the index figure knuckle you have Taira's favourite strike. The power of both comes from the movement of the body. In both cases the strikes come from a relaxed arm and the final angle of the fist depends on the target.

I was taught chamber the same way but to me now chamber has nothing to do with the punch. The chambered hand has different positions in different kata, some palm up, some palm down, some fist closed, some hand open all depending on application.

We digress together.

 

[seasoned]

Really interesting point. If you do what you described above, forgetting the chamber for the minute, you have all the principles of the Systema punch. If you change the fist to strike with the index figure knuckle you have Taira's favourite strike. The power of both comes from the movement of the body. In both cases the strikes come from a relaxed arm and the final angle of the fist depends on the target.

I was taught chamber the same way but to me now chamber has nothing to do with the punch. The chambered hand has different positions in different kata, some palm up, some palm down, some fist closed, some hand open all depending on application.

We digress together.

And rightfully so, the beginner has to have a place for that withdrawing hand so it's not just "dead meat" as it was called many moons ago when the newer students would forget about it and just concentrate on the forward hand.........

Thread now drifting back to center. an Aikido thing... ya know

 

[K-man]

And rightfully so, the beginner has to have a place for that withdrawing hand so it's not just "dead meat" as it was called many moons ago when the newer students would forget about it and just concentrate on the forward hand.........

Thread now drifting back to center. an Aikido thing... ya know

Well to totally digress ... my pet hate.

When in any form of MA and you ask someone to strike with one hand and they leave the other arm hanging. Yep, that's a realistic attack! Yet you see it in videos that people post, time after time, especially in Aikido.

I know ... :-offtopic

 

[CNida]

When I trained in MMA during my time stationed in South Korea, our boxing instructor had us practicing all punches with a vertical fist and there were two primary reasons for this:

1: Incorrectly used, you could tweak your forearm and wrist. I've done it;

2: Inexperienced fighters tend to twist their punching hand way too soon, and thus the strike is telegraphed. I couldn't tell you how many times my punches went off their mark in practice because I was turning my fist before I even threw the punch.

I would venture to say that turning your fist in a punch is something that you need to train a lot, same as digging your hips into a kick or correct body placement in grappling techniques.

Just my .02 cents which is actually worth much less than that.


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