True Martial Artist.....

[Tez3]

For me, a Black Belt is like a Bachelor.

We are still talking about martial arts not marital ones? I can't see what being a bachelor has to do with being a martial artist?

 

[Chris Parker]

Bachelor of the Arts, I believe… a University degree…

 

[marques]

Both are degrees of proficiency. Both require training. And, from my conception, neither one goes back, independently of what you do after 'graduation'. (Unless it was earned by cheating.) Just that.

Feel free to think differently. I already read here other and interesting points of view.

 

[Tez3]

Bachelor of the Arts, I believe… a University degree…

Would have been better to explain that! But I'm beginning to think marques is thinking a lot about other things than martial arts lol.

Both are degrees of proficiency. Both require training. And, from my conception, neither one goes back, independently of what you do after 'graduation'. (Unless it was earned by cheating.) Just that.

Feel free to think differently. I already read here other and interesting points of view.

I'm sorry but you are inadvertently making me chuckle! Not your fault...... but 'conception' is the point when your mum and dad made you! the sentence took on a whole new meaning then.You meant comprehension ie understanding. Bless you,it's a very charming mistake though.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Hmm, you might have missed exactly what was being said, then… koryu don't "cling" to tradition, koryu are those traditions.

Again, I don't mean "cling" in any negative connotation. It's been my experience that members of koryu arts hold their traditions more firmly (and with more understanding) than those in TMA.

I don't think keeping the (cultural) identity of the art is really anything "esoteric"… I do question those who add their own (often bizarre, and poorly understood or researched) "traditions", aping what they think an Asian cultural expression is, in terms of why they do such things, but that's another thing entirely.

I didn't mean the cultural traditions were esoteric (my punctuation left the meaning ambiguous). I was referring to some of the physical techniques that exist in some TMA which no longer have application to modern defense, but are held because they are useful for teaching principles and are part of the history of the art. This would apply to the use of the bokken in training in non-sword styles. It has very little utility as functional weapons training, but is part of the history of some arts and can teach functional movement principles.

Eh, not so much, really. Personally, I find that much of the "intense" maintenance of (so called) traditions are the more modern systems, and the fake pseudo-koryu arts… in koryu, we just follow what the art teaches… which is done by observing the traditions, certainly, but it's more like someone observing wearing a yarmulke when entering a synagogue, than someone following an extremist zealot idolatry, so to speak.

Again, I think I'm unclear in that statement. I wasn't referring to the individual's intensity in defending some part of the art, but in the overall observance of the traditions. In my experience, TMA typically are observant in fits and starts, whereas koryu observance of tradition (as you stated) is a part of how the art is followed. To use your example, some of what I see in TMA would be like someone who is not Jewish wearing a yarmulke when entering a baptist church because they heard that Jews wear them to synagogue. Nothing wrong with it, but it's really not the tradition. Kind of like some of the descriptions I've read/heard about the "tradition" of the gi, colored belts, black belt, etc.

Really? That seems to go against, honestly, pretty much all koryu practitioners and teachers I've encountered… we do occasionally get accused of being "koryu snobs" (I'm rather guilty of that, clearly!), but most koryu practitioners I know are also modern martial artists in one way or another… with a great appreciation of what's presented in various systems and approaches.

It's likely my experience is heavily slanted, since the koryu practitioners rarely post about their arts (for all the reasons you've mentioned), so when some jerk gets jerky in a forum, that stands out more. I suspect there's no more jerkishness and arrogance in koryu than in any other population. Perhaps less, given the un-public nature of koryu doesn't allow for much public ego-stroking.

I've occasionally made tongue-in-cheek comments along those lines, but only even to do with particular contexts… and, as I often say, context is everything.

And the tongue-in-cheek stuff is what we all dish out to each other, within and between arts, styles, and divisions of MA. Again, it likely sticks out more to me simply because the well-mannered practitioners don't really speak out much.

Hmm… Yanagi-ryu… I don't know that it'd qualify as koryu, personally… there's certainly a basis there, most likely something Daito Ryu aligned (and I'm not getting into the whole "is Daito Ryu koryu?" thing…), but there are also more than enough questionable aspects to put some major doubts in my mind… Don Angier was definitely a highly skilled and knowledgable practitioner and teacher, especially in his Aiki methods and historical knowledge, but in other areas, the gaps were noticeable where there shouldn't be any…

I guess what I'm saying is that, if Yanagi-ryu is your go-to example of koryu, then it may behoove you to take a look at the idea that it's not a particularly accurate or "typical" one to use.

Granted. For those of us outside the koryu, Yanagi-ryu's status is close enough for us to probably include them in what I'd define as "koryu" (whether to include it or Daito-ryu depends upon how you define the term, and I have no dog in that fight). I think defining that term universally may be as hard as defining most other things in MA. As I said, they were all nice folks, and I've met some nice folks from Daito-ryu, and a couple of others whose ryu I've entirely forgotten. And I met them before running into the aforementioned snobs on another forum, which made for an abrupt contrast.

Thanks for jumping in to help me understand the koryu better, Chris!

 

[Tez3]

To use your example, some of what I see in TMA would be like someone who is not Jewish wearing a yarmulke when entering a baptist church because they heard that Jews wear them to synagogue. Nothing wrong with it, but it's really not the tradition.

Oooo please don't go there, you have no idea what you are getting into lol. There is a strain of Christianity that insists on following Jewish customs, exactly as you point out! iI would be fine if they also didn't insist on stalking Jewish people to get them to convert. The wearing of a kippot ( yarmulkes) is for reverence and for many is mystical not tradition, what comes under 'tradition' however is the when it's worn and what type you wear.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Oooo please don't go there, you have no idea what you are getting into lol. There is a strain of Christianity that insists on following Jewish customs, exactly as you point out! iI would be fine if they also didn't insist on stalking Jewish people to get them to convert. The wearing of a kippot ( yarmulkes) is for reverence and for many is mystical not tradition, what comes under 'tradition' however is the when it's worn and what type you wear.

Damn real life for stealing my analogies!

 

[Tez3]

Damn real life for stealing my analogies!

Yeah the best bit is they say they are the real Jews now which leaves us simultaneously laughing our heads off and scratching them but does sound like another analogy for stuff that goes on it martial arts.....(BJJ is the real martial art now etc etc)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah the best bit is they say they are the real Jews now which leaves us simultaneously laughing our heads off and scratching them but does sound like another analogy for stuff that goes on it martial arts.....(BJJ is the real martial art now etc etc)

Are these the folks commonly referred to as "Messianic Jews"? I always wondered about that nomenclature.

 

[donald1]

This guy makes me confused, he feels like a black belt spiritually? But not physically??? Im not even sure how to respond to such a statement
(I could make a response but it would likley seem mediocre or simpleton in comparison) Okay... if I understand this correctly he believes he has the mindset of s blackbelt but not the physical aspect? (I assume thats what he meant)

 

[donald1]

[Edit:] accidently posted same message twice

 

[Tez3]

Are these the folks commonly referred to as "Messianic Jews"? I always wondered about that nomenclature.

That's the ones. I think in any group of people whatever they are there always has to be a small group who are 'truer', 'better' or more 'authentic' than all the others even to the point of coming in and taking over from the original people. They always have to be the 'true' ones.
Being a black belt means different things to different people, each is as each valid as the other. Only insecure people or those wanting to feel superior to others would say they are the 'true' martial artists. Blowing out others candles doesn't make your glow brighter.

 

[crazydiamond]

Bachelor of the Arts, I believe… a University degree…

Ya know I stopped back at my local university the other day. I noticed all the students using advanced 3D computer modeling and building generative algorithms to simulate complex buildings. I realized that engineering has changed since I got my bachelors of science. I thought I needed to hand back my degree to my professor and become a freshman again. Then I realized none of these kids have spent two decades in the streets with all sorts of different clients and engineering solutions that work in the real world.. So I smiled, wished them well, went home and put my degree back up next to my old manual drafting board.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's the ones. I think in any group of people whatever they are there always has to be a small group who are 'truer', 'better' or more 'authentic' than all the others even to the point of coming in and taking over from the original people. They always have to be the 'true' ones.
Being a black belt means different things to different people, each is as each valid as the other. Only insecure people or those wanting to feel superior to others would say they are the 'true' martial artists. Blowing out others candles doesn't make your glow brighter.

Yes, but the TRUE "true" ones, well, we are far more humble than the "true" ones, and we don't blow others' candles out. And we're better looking. And we get free coffee.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

After discussion with his teacher (John Lewis), Mr. Inoue has changed his mind and decided to wear his black belt again. He details his thought process and his conversations with his instructor here. I don't have a strong opinion one way or another about it, but it's interesting to see how he came to his decisions. He seems like a sincere guy.

Enson is definitely a sincere guy by all accounts. You can also see his dilemma in that he comes back after some time off. Because people have progressed the system forward and he is not at the level he was there is a feeling of being inadequate at that rank. I think instead of people trying to say false humility or that he is a true martial artist it is more closely that he is confused about what to do regarding this.

 

[WaterGal]

I'm sorry but you are inadvertently making me chuckle! Not your fault...... but 'conception' is the point when your mum and dad made you! the sentence took on a whole new meaning then.You meant comprehension ie understanding. Bless you,it's a very charming mistake though.

He's actually not wrong - "conception" can also refer to the idea/image of something that you form in your mind. For example, "The OP's conception of what makes someone a true martial artist is.....". It's not as commonly used a meaning as the moment you become pregnant, though. His sentence would probably have been clearer if he'd used "comprehension" or" understanding".

 

[Chris Parker]

Again, I don't mean "cling" in any negative connotation. It's been my experience that members of koryu arts hold their traditions more firmly (and with more understanding) than those in TMA.

Oh, I didn't read anything necessarily negative in it… simply that "to cling" implies holding onto desperately… which is not the case. We don't "cling" to traditions, it's simply that what we do is made up of them… if they no longer served the purpose, we'd lose them (which has happened in large and small ways over the history of the ryu-ha anyway). We change curriculums, alter the way techniques are done, create or lose (or re-construct and re-integrate) techniques on a semi-regular basis (depending on the ryu and soke concerned, obviously).

I didn't mean the cultural traditions were esoteric (my punctuation left the meaning ambiguous). I was referring to some of the physical techniques that exist in some TMA which no longer have application to modern defense, but are held because they are useful for teaching principles and are part of the history of the art. This would apply to the use of the bokken in training in non-sword styles. It has very little utility as functional weapons training, but is part of the history of some arts and can teach functional movement principles.

Okay… I'd simply describe that as the pedagogy of the system… provided the techniques (or other aspects) have a real reason to be there, then it's fine… expected, even. Where I have issues is where modern, Western systems create their own "Japanese traditions" (typically without any real basis other than their own imagination)… but that's really nothing to do with Koryu or actual traditional martial arts, other than presenting a rather false and misleading example of them.

Again, I think I'm unclear in that statement. I wasn't referring to the individual's intensity in defending some part of the art, but in the overall observance of the traditions. In my experience, TMA typically are observant in fits and starts, whereas koryu observance of tradition (as you stated) is a part of how the art is followed. To use your example, some of what I see in TMA would be like someone who is not Jewish wearing a yarmulke when entering a baptist church because they heard that Jews wear them to synagogue. Nothing wrong with it, but it's really not the tradition. Kind of like some of the descriptions I've read/heard about the "tradition" of the gi, colored belts, black belt, etc.

To me, that's a lack of education and awareness of what you're doing… and I'd hesitate to call any system that blindly observes "tradition" without understanding it as actually being traditional… more simply a facade of tradition.With Koryu, though, tradition(s) aren't part of how the art is followed, it's what the art is in it's entirety… I know this sounds like a bit of double talk, but it's the reality of the way these arts are done. There is no tradition for tradition's sake… but everything you do is traditional… and everything is done for it's purpose.

It's likely my experience is heavily slanted, since the koryu practitioners rarely post about their arts (for all the reasons you've mentioned), so when some jerk gets jerky in a forum, that stands out more. I suspect there's no more jerkishness and arrogance in koryu than in any other population. Perhaps less, given the un-public nature of koryu doesn't allow for much public ego-stroking.

Fair enough. Honestly, I've seen far more "jerkishness" and arrogance (regarding their arts) from fake koryu than actual practitioners, for the record…

And the tongue-in-cheek stuff is what we all dish out to each other, within and between arts, styles, and divisions of MA. Again, it likely sticks out more to me simply because the well-mannered practitioners don't really speak out much.

They speak, but "speaking out" is typically not done… most concerns are kept in-house, so there's no need to broadcast anything of the kind.

Granted. For those of us outside the koryu, Yanagi-ryu's status is close enough for us to probably include them in what I'd define as "koryu" (whether to include it or Daito-ryu depends upon how you define the term, and I have no dog in that fight). I think defining that term universally may be as hard as defining most other things in MA.

Hmm… no, not really. Defining what is and is not Koryu is fairly cut and dried, really… if it's a historical Japanese tradition with a starting date prior to the Meiji Restoration of 1868, it's Koryu… if it's not, it's not. Koryu's pretty good that way, it's either Koryu, or it's not. There really isn't much grey area.

The issue comes up with systems such as Daito Ryu, who claim an old heritage, but most likely was founded by Sokaku Takeda in the late 1800's (making it not Koryu)… so it depends on who you believe. Yanagi Ryu, on the other hand, is pretty much certainly not Koryu.

As I said, they were all nice folks, and I've met some nice folks from Daito-ryu, and a couple of others whose ryu I've entirely forgotten. And I met them before running into the aforementioned snobs on another forum, which made for an abrupt contrast.

Many Koryu practitioners are "nice folks"… at the very least, they tend to be fairly mature, serious, educated, and experienced martial artists… Koryu doesn't tend to attract those who want to feel "powerful", or who want to prove themselves in a competition (such as MMA or BJJ)… nor does it attract those who are looking for "real violence", "street fighting", even "self defence". Most who come to Koryu (if they're looking for it, rather than stumbling across it by happening to have a dojo nearby, which does happen as well) do it when already experienced in other arts, and are typically looking for something beyond such systems as are commonly found around them.

Where the "snob" side of things comes into it, largely, is when people try to apply values of these more modern, "competitive based", "street -ready" systems to Koryu… where there is no real need or desire to whatsoever. This can lead the Koryu practitioner to want to explain what value they see in their training… which can sometimes come back to "well, what you do can get you a trophy… what we do is what keeps people alive in real combat". There can also sometimes be an undercurrent of "what we do is the actual war-like combative methods"… which can lead some to describe them as "the only real martial arts" (there is some argument there, but it's hardly worth getting into… in the end, they're simply different approaches to the concept of martial arts, with different values to the modern systems).

Thanks for jumping in to help me understand the koryu better, Chris!

My pleasure. Honestly, we're always thrilled when people show interest… and will happily answer whatever questions are asked, when we can.

 

[Tez3]

He's actually not wrong - "conception" can also refer to the idea/image of something that you form in your mind. For example, "The OP's conception of what makes someone a true martial artist is.....". It's not as commonly used a meaning as the moment you become pregnant, though. His sentence would probably have been clearer if he'd used "comprehension" or" understanding".

Ah it depends on the qualifying words before and after it what the sentence means though, if it he had said the 'OP's conception of what...... ' it will mean idea/understanding but 'from my conception comma.... gives a different meaning. It's nuances of English that are difficult to learn ( poster is learning English though it's very good now) for people whose first language is not English.

 

[drop bear]

This guy makes me confused, he feels like a black belt spiritually? But not physically??? Im not even sure how to respond to such a statement
(I could make a response but it would likley seem mediocre or simpleton in comparison) Okay... if I understand this correctly he believes he has the mindset of s blackbelt but not the physical aspect? (I assume thats what he meant)

If the system evolves at some point he is a black belt in a different system.

So. Yeah i can see the dichotomy there.