J
jeffkyle
Guest
Why not if it is a PUSH?
B
brianhunter
Guest
Could you explain please ??????
satans.barber
Master Black Belt
Few points:
1) the initial palm heel can also be coupled with an eye strike, if desired
2) if the attack is bt someone much shorter than you, the strikes following the crane hand thing can be done to the head area (over the top of the arm) rather than to the rib area (under the arm). Although people will tell you that a shorter guy isn't going to grab a bigger guy, you'd be suprised what little people with Napolean complexes think they're capable of!
3) I wouldn't personally strike the chin with a straight punch at the end, pointy chin bone against fingers? If you ask me you'd break them if you hit it with any force. For me, I'd rather hit a squarer target such as the temple, or even better a softer target such as the nose or cheek
Ian.
1) the initial palm heel can also be coupled with an eye strike, if desired
2) if the attack is bt someone much shorter than you, the strikes following the crane hand thing can be done to the head area (over the top of the arm) rather than to the rib area (under the arm). Although people will tell you that a shorter guy isn't going to grab a bigger guy, you'd be suprised what little people with Napolean complexes think they're capable of!
3) I wouldn't personally strike the chin with a straight punch at the end, pointy chin bone against fingers? If you ask me you'd break them if you hit it with any force. For me, I'd rather hit a squarer target such as the temple, or even better a softer target such as the nose or cheek
Ian.
There are interesting pressure points at each specific target which some may be missing due to "...aiming for the head of the fish instead of the eye." (An old Mr. Parker analogy for those interested.)
Nerve under the chin - heel palm
Radial nerve - crane hand, sword hand or cupped palm strike
Point right under the floating rib - inward elbow
Intercostals or below the floating rib on the right lateral side - outward elbow
Kidney or nerve on top of the pelvis - backfist.
Hinge of the mandible or maxilary nerve under the jaw - uppercut
Edmund Jr. did a nice job demonstrating these targets and the opponent's actual reaction to each strike, by using thumb or finger pressure to each point. It was also nice seeing how long it took the body to react and create or acquire the next target at the correct range.
Or you can just hit them real hard all over til they fall down. Including breaking the nose, blinding them, breaking the elbow, cracking the ribs or damaging the liver, rupturing their kidney, and getting to break their jaw. As we say in Texas Yeeeeee-Haaaaaaaaa!
I personally think it unlikely that anyone would get up if I managed to land the initial strike, of course we can always hope that they are still there.
-Michael
UKS-Texas
Nerve under the chin - heel palm
Radial nerve - crane hand, sword hand or cupped palm strike
Point right under the floating rib - inward elbow
Intercostals or below the floating rib on the right lateral side - outward elbow
Kidney or nerve on top of the pelvis - backfist.
Hinge of the mandible or maxilary nerve under the jaw - uppercut
Edmund Jr. did a nice job demonstrating these targets and the opponent's actual reaction to each strike, by using thumb or finger pressure to each point. It was also nice seeing how long it took the body to react and create or acquire the next target at the correct range.
Or you can just hit them real hard all over til they fall down. Including breaking the nose, blinding them, breaking the elbow, cracking the ribs or damaging the liver, rupturing their kidney, and getting to break their jaw. As we say in Texas Yeeeeee-Haaaaaaaaa!
I personally think it unlikely that anyone would get up if I managed to land the initial strike, of course we can always hope that they are still there.
-Michael
UKS-Texas
Doc
Senior Master
Sure. Most that I've seen teach this essentially as an attempted push. Nobody seems to wait to be pushed. I instruct my staff to tell the students ultimately in class to close their eyes forcing them to deal with the push and react to it as the technique is designed. That will completely change these descriptions. Stepping forward off a good push even on the opposite shoulder is not a given. You'll find most instictively move before pushed or end up stepping back. I think Jaybaca said it. "Where the head goes the body follows." Pushing the shoulder moves the head backwards.
Klondike93
Master Black Belt
The way Doc is describing it here is how I was taught and how I do it to this day. As your being pushed you use that momentum to hit with the palm heel to the chin (borrowed force I believe).
That takes away any punch idea I think, but to quote Doc "that's my opinion, I could be wrong".
:asian:
Doc
Senior Master
In MK, everybody talks about the "ideal" and techniques not working as written. How many times have I said the manuals don't tell you "how" do do a technique? It only tells you what the basic "idea" of the technique is, therefore there are no "ideal" techniques in any of the manuals. Never has been. Ed Parker said, "They are only ideas." Students with the guidance of instructors must make them functional for themselves.
So my question is this: If instructors have to "create" an "ideal" technique based on the lesson plan descriptors in the manuals, why don't they create an "ideal" technique that works in the first place? It makes no sense to me to create an ideal technique to teach "principles," and than abandon the technique so you can make it work. That's dumb. Obviously a well designed technique that works will give you the same opportunities to teach "principles" in a functional enviroment where they make the most sense and serve the best non abstract purpose. Something is really wrong here.
Every Default Technique (ideal) in our techniqur curriculum works as written and teaches the necessary concepts. Everytime someone talks about ideal techniques they are talking about an "interpretation" of what they or their teacher read. Ed Parker said, "If ten guys read the manuals and then try to do what they read, you will see ten different interpretations of what they read." Therefore THERE ARE NO IDEAL TECHNIQUES IN THE MANUALS, ONLY IN YOUR OR YOUR TEACHERS HEAD.
The lesson plan manuals of Motion-Kenpo do what they were designed to do for competent teachers, but competent teachers have to do what they are supposed to do and create a "functional ideal." If the "ideals" aren't working, someone is not doing their job, or are strangely taking the long way around. But perhaps the answer is simpler than that. As I said before, "designing" a functional technique is not as easy within a curriculum as some may think. It's much easier to "blame" Kenpo or the manuals and keep insisting the "maual ideals don't work" when they don't exist. There is nothing wrong with Kenpo motion or otherwise and it is all there. The problem is not the art, it's the teachers.
Now that I've made some more friends...........:soapbox: I'll leave peaceably. you don't have to throw me out:asian:
2. TRIGGERED SALUTE: (Front right hand direct push)
1. While standing naturally, your opponent pushes your left shoulder forcibly with his right hand. SURVIVE THE INITIAL ASSAULT. Immediately and simultaneously (1) ride the action and turn your left shoulder counterclockwise and ride your opponent's right push as you have your left hand SLAP-CHECK/ FIT pin and check your opponent's right hand to your shoulder. (Maintain the PIN throughout the technique) Regain your balance by stepping toward 4:30 with your left foot into a twist stance. (2) step forward as you un-pivot and explode with your right foot into a right neutral bow (between l0:00 and 11:00), and (3) simultaneously thrust a right heel palm strike to the front of your opponent's chin, or top lip. (Your opponent's head should snap back and away from you.) PAUSE
2. Forecasting the response of your opponent's upper body, (1) frictionally slide your right hand in a heel palm position using the heel of the hand, down your opponent's right arm (making sure to anchor your elbow) and STRIKE THE FOREARM just below the bend of the arm. (2) Hook your opponent's right arm down and toward 7:30; (3) ROUND THE CORNER with your right arm as (4) you unhesitatingly deliver a right inward, downward diagonal elbow strike to your opponent's right forward rib-cage, as you pivot into a modified right reverse bow stance. (The frictional pull will bring your opponent's upper body forward and diagonally to his right.
3. After following through with your right inward elbow strike, immediately deliver a right outward horizontal elbow strike to your opponent's right rear floating ribs. PAUSE STOP
4. Using RESIDUAL TORQUE, continue and follow-up with a right outward horizontal back knuckle strike to your opponent's right rear floating ribs (hitting the same point as the elbow. Immediately cock your right fist to your right hip into a right forward bow as you push-drag reverse toward 4:30 to elongate his arm.
5. Without any loss of motion, push-drag forward and thrust a torquing heel palm strike into your opponent's chin while your left hand SLAP-CHECKS at your right shoulder. Lock out your right arm as you...
6. Right front crossover, and cover out toward 7:30.
Timing & Breathing Signature: 12 P 3 P 45 C
GCM SignatureĀ: 12G34G4G5G
OK, that's what I would have guessed. I too associate it with pecking with the point but have seen it used to hook in Chinese styles. Generally they're making a point so to speak of using a crane technique for everything they do because they're a crane style--it does seem rather pedantic instead of practical.
It's been my experience that Kenpo has a lot in common with Southern Chinese kung fu though--one of the forms has the classic "secret sign", doesn't it? Left hand straight out, back of the right hand on the back of the tricep with index finger extended and the other fingers in leopard-strike position, palm facing out to the side?
Doc
Senior Master
I've received several e-mails about Borrowed Force in Triggered Salute. For the record "Borrowed Force" is there and a good instructor can show it. Additionally the last versions of Ed Parker's manuals were a bit more specific but not much, and still don't tell you how. "Right punch to the ribcage" tells you what not how. He NEVER EVER wrote how for Motion-Kenpo. that would contridict its philosophy. It is by designed a conceptual lesson plan with built in flexibility to allow student/teacher tailoring.
"Right punch to the ribcage" is a bit vague, as it does serve your statement, you are making no reference to a particular technique. Notwithstanding the "Motion Kenpo" reference, I suppose you and I will agree to disagree. The manuals get quite detailed as to the "how" in the "ideal phase."
Regarding your version of Triggered Salute, clearly no one can truly know a technique without a qualified instructor doing the hands on. If you say you are still employing borrowed force in the technique, so be it.
Respectfully,
Wes Idol, HI
United Kenpo Systems
http://www.uks-kenpo.com
Regarding your version of Triggered Salute, clearly no one can truly know a technique without a qualified instructor doing the hands on. If you say you are still employing borrowed force in the technique, so be it.
Respectfully,
Wes Idol, HI
United Kenpo Systems
http://www.uks-kenpo.com
satans.barber
Master Black Belt
I don't personally do it with the fingers in a point, since it's not used for striking I basically have the hand in a normal fist formation, but bent towards the forearm to create the crane formation (or maybe the way I do it it's not technically called that, I'm not sure..?)
I'm not a fan of the fingers out position, too easy for someone to grab a hold of them and squeze them all till half of them crack and break if you ask me!
Ian.
Doc
Senior Master
OK my e-mail blew up asking for an explanation on the "Borrowed Force" issue as it's used in the example I gave. This speaks to one of the thngs I alluded to above. Everybody assumes they are on the same page and they are not. Therefore Borrowed Force has to be defined first before we can even conversate.
This is a systemic problem in Motion-Kenpo. I remember a conversation I had with Ed jr. about a demonstration of "Systema" he observed with another well know high ranking kenpoist. Edmund was significantly impressed with the very effective demo and asked the kenpoist what he thought. The other guy said "well he's pretty good," but then went on to list all the principles he felt weren't used in the demo. How can you talk about what wasn't being done when he was being effective? I thought that was the objective. Besides just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there.
Anyway, The "Borrowed Force" issue is very much misunderstood. In Motion-Kenpo the assumption is "Borrowed Force" takes place immediately as the opponent's force is generated with no other actions in between. This is false. When you wind a clock you are providing the force which will drive the mechanism. The mechanism "borrows" it's energy or force from you to drive the mechanism "later." With the Default Technique used in our curriculum, the energy from the push is "borrowed" as you are forced into the Twist Stance. As you know a Twist Stance "stores torquing energy." Therefore the push triggers the twist, and the energy is "stored" momentarily until you "unwind" the stance thus releasing the energy. That's the "Borrowed Force" I was taught and teach, which is obviously different.
This is the only reason why I "label" the different Kenpo interpretations, to communicate. If you stay only within your group you can call it anything or nothing. But in mixed company everybody is not on the same page no matter how much we would like to be. Dam there goes another soapbox :soapbox: I'll see myself out, no need to be physical.
B
brianhunter
Guest
Actually I think the picture next to borrowed force in the encyclopedia of kenpo looks like they are doing triggered salute
Mr. C.,
At the risk of sounding disrespectfully comedic, what's the shelf life on this "stored energy?"
Sorry, couldn't help myself.
Ok, I think I see your point. I could even see the push thrusting you into the a twist that ricochets (sp?) you in and out of a twist stance. Ergo, the harder they push, the faster you spring in and out of the twist stance. I gotta say, that is a nice way to create a formidable angle of entry as well.
Respectfully,
Wes Idol, HI
United Kenpo Systems
http://www.uks-kenpo.com
