I was wondering the other day... some arts like ninjutsu, aikido, capoiera don't have contact type sparring. For arts w/out heavy amount of contact, how do you train to take a hit? Or at least not to be shocked when you are hit. Everyone is going to eventually be suprised (except for Don Roley of course)... Do you do anything to prepare for such an occurance?
Training to take the hit
- Thread starter mrhnau
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Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
well, i'll give my best answer with regards to capoeira.
There are different ways to play capoeira, and playing withing the context of the roda is not the same as training to fight, and I think a lot of people, including capoeiristas, forget this reality. The roda is a game, but it is a martial game and certainly develops skills that can be useful in a fight. But it is still a game, and has certain etiquette and such, and can be very playful and friendly, but can also be very rough and nasty. But within the game, rough or gentle, or whatever, you still train in a way to develop the game. This includes learning to avoid attacks, dodge around them, let them flow past you, rather than blocking or taking the hit. To block an attack disrupts the flow of the game, the physical dialogue, and makes the game ugly and destroyed. This ability to avoid attacks is very useful, and can transfer to some degree to a real fight.
However, training to fight is a very different thing than training to play in the roda. I think that, at least here in the US, most people don't train to fight, but rather train only for the roda, even those who like to play rough in the roda. While they may train rought, and may be able to actually hurt you, it is still not the same as training for a real decisive fight for your life on the street. If you want to fight, you will train more like a fighter. The movement you learned for the roda can still be useful, but you need to train with contact, and understanding that the acrobatics and fluidity that make capoeira so unique will be heavily eliminated in a real fight. Essentially, the kicks and strikes and takedowns and sweeps will be done for real, instead of done in a way to develop the physical dialogue. And training to be able to survive these strikes would be part of the drills one would do, if training to fight.
I suspect if one was training capoeira to be a real fighter, the art would look brutal and nasty, and would seem to be an entirely different thing from what is done in the game of the roda.
My comments are based on the fact that I have trained capoeira for about 7 or 8 years, but had a background in other martial arts for almost a decade, prior to doing that. I am commenting from the perspective of these different experiences, and not from what someone has specifically taught me about capoeira as a strictly fighting art.
There are different ways to play capoeira, and playing withing the context of the roda is not the same as training to fight, and I think a lot of people, including capoeiristas, forget this reality. The roda is a game, but it is a martial game and certainly develops skills that can be useful in a fight. But it is still a game, and has certain etiquette and such, and can be very playful and friendly, but can also be very rough and nasty. But within the game, rough or gentle, or whatever, you still train in a way to develop the game. This includes learning to avoid attacks, dodge around them, let them flow past you, rather than blocking or taking the hit. To block an attack disrupts the flow of the game, the physical dialogue, and makes the game ugly and destroyed. This ability to avoid attacks is very useful, and can transfer to some degree to a real fight.
However, training to fight is a very different thing than training to play in the roda. I think that, at least here in the US, most people don't train to fight, but rather train only for the roda, even those who like to play rough in the roda. While they may train rought, and may be able to actually hurt you, it is still not the same as training for a real decisive fight for your life on the street. If you want to fight, you will train more like a fighter. The movement you learned for the roda can still be useful, but you need to train with contact, and understanding that the acrobatics and fluidity that make capoeira so unique will be heavily eliminated in a real fight. Essentially, the kicks and strikes and takedowns and sweeps will be done for real, instead of done in a way to develop the physical dialogue. And training to be able to survive these strikes would be part of the drills one would do, if training to fight.
I suspect if one was training capoeira to be a real fighter, the art would look brutal and nasty, and would seem to be an entirely different thing from what is done in the game of the roda.
My comments are based on the fact that I have trained capoeira for about 7 or 8 years, but had a background in other martial arts for almost a decade, prior to doing that. I am commenting from the perspective of these different experiences, and not from what someone has specifically taught me about capoeira as a strictly fighting art.
Hard sparring is only one way to learn to take a hit. It has the advantage of being in context, but there are other ways to train.
1. Standing and being whacked - systema and certain kung fu people do this alot - you stand still and someone strikes you in a prearranged spot.
2. Trading blows in sequence - some systems have paired exercise in which, in addition to blocking each other's attacks, you also are struck as part of the prearranged exercise - certain JJJ schools make extensive use of this.
3. Trading blows or "Klimax" - you stand and strike the other person, who does not defend, then he does the same. The term "Klimax" comes from Greek pancration practice (although it could also be used as a tiebreaker in matches). This exercise can be done either with prearranged places and techniques (ie, I roundkick you in the side, you do the same to me, repeat process) or freeform (I get to strike you anywhere and you do the same). I would imagine it generally is not a good idea to do this exercise full force. Muay Thai, certain Indian arts, and some karate schools (although fortunately not mine) make use of this exercise.
1. Standing and being whacked - systema and certain kung fu people do this alot - you stand still and someone strikes you in a prearranged spot.
2. Trading blows in sequence - some systems have paired exercise in which, in addition to blocking each other's attacks, you also are struck as part of the prearranged exercise - certain JJJ schools make extensive use of this.
3. Trading blows or "Klimax" - you stand and strike the other person, who does not defend, then he does the same. The term "Klimax" comes from Greek pancration practice (although it could also be used as a tiebreaker in matches). This exercise can be done either with prearranged places and techniques (ie, I roundkick you in the side, you do the same to me, repeat process) or freeform (I get to strike you anywhere and you do the same). I would imagine it generally is not a good idea to do this exercise full force. Muay Thai, certain Indian arts, and some karate schools (although fortunately not mine) make use of this exercise.
bydand
Senior Master
mrhnau said:
Wow, somebody must have forgot to tell the bujinkan dojo, and a couple of Quest centers I've been to that we don't have contact.
I know you are refering to a set "sparring" situation, but I think that is where most people miss the boat in adding Ninjutsu or even most To-Shin-Do schools into the "No Contact" column. No we don't have set sparring matches, but we also train with each other every technique we are learning. That involves getting hit with everything from hands and feet to staffs. Granted not full speed, but plenty hard enough to leave black-and-blue marks.
Hmmm... I am not sure exactly how to reply to this, but to say, large amounts of contact sparring is NOT the only way to learn to take the hit. Randori in Ninjutsu can certainly yield some interesting and bell ringing contact if someone is caught unaware. I have had my share of "contact". I have taken an elbow, knee, or fist in the grill on a number of occasions. I have had skin grabs, pulls and pinches, I was once even knocked out cold (not directly from a hit). Heck even recently a well known instructor left some nice scratch marks down my trachea as I was uke at the time for the demonstration, which was quite painful at the moment.mrhnau said:
Contact is definitely made in Ninjutsu, if the tori doesn't move. Avoiding the strike is one of the most basic principles of our art... Another words "Don't be *there* when the strike gets *there*". We are NOT trained to stop punches with our face, we are taught to avoid them.
Additionally, I would point out the training concept of "don't stop, keep going" is important to fosting the proper mindset even if a grill shot happens. Certainly, one needs to feel a strike and they will on more than one occassion, but I don't think it is necessary to try to pound yourself until your numb to it, that would be counter productive to our training.
Note: I reference face shots often as this IMO is the most shocking to people.
Bottom line, lots of contact sparring isn't necessary and is in fact counter productive for Ninjutsu training.
in sparring learn to 'yield' the energy coming towards you. always try to be out of the way of the energy. this requires a lot of foot work and hip movement. if you train this way you will be able to yield a hit even if you actually get hit. the impact will be much less and you will have the ability to strike back or continue fighting after you are hit. the key however is to spar slowly as a drill to learn yielding
Jimi
Black Belt
Depends on where you want to train to take a hit, for example, getting hit in the head is unsafe to train for by taking a good wack on the head and face. On the other hand, a body shot or leg/arm/limb shot can be smiulated more safely ahthough you will still take punishment. For example, when I was a sparring partner in the Amateur Boxing Federation, we used to do a lot of ab medicine ball work to handle body shots better. Thai Kickboxers condition the legs shins/thighs etc...(Some to different levels of conditioning) to handle the shots they are most likely to take in sparring/competition. I am sure others can give good input too. PEACE
Generally in my experience, arts that do not have sparring have alot of contact during their two man technique sets. Particulary the instructor will show how pain can be can be applied with a strike, grab, pinch, etc. so that the students know what the technique can do.
Needless to say, I have yet to be in a combative/sporting martial art that did not have it's fair share of contact and pain. Seems to go with the whole martial thing.
Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com
Needless to say, I have yet to be in a combative/sporting martial art that did not have it's fair share of contact and pain. Seems to go with the whole martial thing.
Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com
Taking a hits for the most part a perceptual fitness issue. You have to learn to enjoy it.
Sean
Sean
Dark
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mrhnau said:
Well being as I practice ninjitsu/ninjutsu the english spelling of kanji is unimportant. The thought and consideration of subject matter is well different for different people. Unlike Big shadow, I have the opposite view of spectrum and I have several points to address...
1- Shock, on a pychological stand point, is what ahppens when you are a "virgin" to pain or physical contact. Meaning if you aren't used to the occurance it will surprise you. Physical shock is what happens when your body begins to shut down. They are two totally different things...
2- I don't believe the "don't be there" philosophy, you can not always choose where, when and how you will be attacked.
3- Physical contact is the only way to develop a resistance to physical pressure/force through experiencing it. Most individuals who have never been in a fight do not realize how bad pain can hurt until they are subject to that hurt.
What that means is simply, to become used to the physical effects of physical punishment you have to be subject to those effects. The surprise comes from false attitudes like, I can block the attack or dodge the attack every time. Now having studied a modern variet of ninjutsu/ninjitsu I have had plenty of experience with full contact sparring, like wise I know a few X-kan members who share this same view.
Now accepting that I will at sometime be hit does that mean I will of course stand there and wait to be hit? No, it means I have more insentive to avoid or deflect the attack. Does it mean I will always be successful? No, it doesn't. Does it mean I won't be surprised from time to time when I am hit? No, it simply means I am used to such situations and I expect to be surprised, injured and to be placed in unpredictable situations.
All that and one final point to be made, sparring is not the only source of contact and shock the body reseves, ukemi, basic randori and even none resistant throws may be used to prepare the body for the shock trauma of impact, so sparring is not an end all be all for the evolution to resist a strike or throw of training. Sparring serves a higher perpose of teaching one to use techniques against a resisting opponent...
Heaps of posts about sparring to take the hit or getting hit to take the hit. Accurate i believe.
One thing that seems to have been over looked. Focus mit and shield drills. I guess these are the first place to get the feel of someone striking you. It allows safety whilst the eyes and body learn not do shy away from the hit. It's great for new people to develop confidence, also more experienced practitioners can learn clues about how people strike as they do not have to think of defense. Focus mit and shield drills are a great way to start learning the strike and bolster existing knowledge. Repeated actions produce strong neural associations.
One thing that seems to have been over looked. Focus mit and shield drills. I guess these are the first place to get the feel of someone striking you. It allows safety whilst the eyes and body learn not do shy away from the hit. It's great for new people to develop confidence, also more experienced practitioners can learn clues about how people strike as they do not have to think of defense. Focus mit and shield drills are a great way to start learning the strike and bolster existing knowledge. Repeated actions produce strong neural associations.
Dark said:
You missed my point, but that is OK.
Dark said:
That is nonsense, I have heard that whole resisting thing so much it makes me want to :barf: Why would you want to *force* a technique? Do something else, but that is a matter for another thread.
tradrockrat
2nd Black Belt
Can I try to give my answer in the form of a story? 
When I went out to study other styles and arts, at first i went with very combat oriented MA's - in other words - lots of sparing. this was cool, and we trained our bodies to take punnishment. however, I was always one who felt that the least amount of punnishment was the best amount - so long as you got used to contact and could work (fight) through it - it was all good.
Eventually, I come upon a MA school that didn't use sparing. The teacher was excellent, and the technique of the students looked very good as well so I felt comfortable attending classes there. In the first month two things convinced me that you MUST train live in some way beyond "hard with accidental contact on occasion".
First, I saw that whenever "accidental" contact happend, action was stopped immediately while the struck held his nose (or whatever) and the striker apologized profusely. This is the worst thing you can get used to - it's the exact opposite of what you want to have happen in a fight.
The second thing was the way in which these accidents were handled after the fact. Most often, the treacher would admonish the student who was out of control (which isn't really a bad thing in and of itself) to be more careful and then instruct the other students in the benefits of "not being there". Well this seemed pretty absurd to me as the drills show clearly how "there' you will actually have to be in order to utilize the techniques! After that I was totally on board with the camp that believes in experiential learning. Bando had always been that way - if you trained Boar you got hit with elbows and knees, Python you got choked out, etc. - but after this I understood why.
When I went out to study other styles and arts, at first i went with very combat oriented MA's - in other words - lots of sparing. this was cool, and we trained our bodies to take punnishment. however, I was always one who felt that the least amount of punnishment was the best amount - so long as you got used to contact and could work (fight) through it - it was all good.
Eventually, I come upon a MA school that didn't use sparing. The teacher was excellent, and the technique of the students looked very good as well so I felt comfortable attending classes there. In the first month two things convinced me that you MUST train live in some way beyond "hard with accidental contact on occasion".
First, I saw that whenever "accidental" contact happend, action was stopped immediately while the struck held his nose (or whatever) and the striker apologized profusely. This is the worst thing you can get used to - it's the exact opposite of what you want to have happen in a fight.
The second thing was the way in which these accidents were handled after the fact. Most often, the treacher would admonish the student who was out of control (which isn't really a bad thing in and of itself) to be more careful and then instruct the other students in the benefits of "not being there". Well this seemed pretty absurd to me as the drills show clearly how "there' you will actually have to be in order to utilize the techniques! After that I was totally on board with the camp that believes in experiential learning. Bando had always been that way - if you trained Boar you got hit with elbows and knees, Python you got choked out, etc. - but after this I understood why.
Bigshadow said:
How easy is it to actually convert between techniques? The "flow to where he isn't resisting" doesn't seem to work very well in actual application... a fine ideal, but it should be tested so that its limitations become clearer.
Dark
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Bigshadow said:
Then by all means please explain your point further..?
Bigshadow said:
Why force a technique? Because some opponents are as fluid and addaptable as you may very well be and thus the only reasonable approach is to continue on ignoring minor discomfort and pain to apply a fighting technique, such as joint destruction, or bone breaking. That is only one example, while the are near limitless approaches to the same technique that does mean there are likewise near limitless counters and escapes. But I digress from the real issue...
How do know a technique will work fi you do not apply it against a resisting opponent who is set on countering and defeatinh you as well?
The simple solution is of course to adapt and over come but that does not limit adaptation to simply taking an easier route. I was taught there where 5 elemental approaches to combat and combative in ninjitsu. Does the very nature of say fire not dictate a constant and over powering force of agression against an opponent. While water would dictate a fluid pattern of agression and defense which flows around the path of least resistance. Both are full acceptible methods and outcomes and both can be applied and reapplied throughout the course of fight.
So then the question I am asking is, does avoidance (wind) or redirection (water) take presidence over a rooted solid and recieving (earth) philosophy of action? Do we not grow stronger through our trials and thus trying our skills against another not make us better at applying them?
Lets try to not turn this into another long winded thread on pressure testing. There are enough of those on here already and the topic has been :deadhorse
That being said, I think I see where both sides are coming from. Should we have resistance from our opponent, so we can get a better feel for the technique? Sure. Should we try to out muscle them? No. If something isn't working, why turn it into a strength match, as the outcome will be determined by who is stronger. We should be able to adapt to the situation and flow to something else. I think this is where Dave is coming from.
On a side note, I'll comment on two other posts:
Don't we see this all the time with the more technical BJJ fighters? Speaking for myself only here, there have been times in which I've been working a tech. with my partner and he is offering resistance. Rather than struggle with him, I've simply changed to something else. Did I do the text book technique? No, but I was still able to move on to something else.
I think you may find quite a few that disagree with that. The spelling ninjItsu, is often attributed to like likes of Ashida Kim and Frank Dux, people whos background seems pretty clouded, while NinjUtsu, is linked to Hatsumi, one whos background is quite different from the above mentioned folks.
Mike
That being said, I think I see where both sides are coming from. Should we have resistance from our opponent, so we can get a better feel for the technique? Sure. Should we try to out muscle them? No. If something isn't working, why turn it into a strength match, as the outcome will be determined by who is stronger. We should be able to adapt to the situation and flow to something else. I think this is where Dave is coming from.
On a side note, I'll comment on two other posts:
Don't we see this all the time with the more technical BJJ fighters? Speaking for myself only here, there have been times in which I've been working a tech. with my partner and he is offering resistance. Rather than struggle with him, I've simply changed to something else. Did I do the text book technique? No, but I was still able to move on to something else.
I think you may find quite a few that disagree with that. The spelling ninjItsu, is often attributed to like likes of Ashida Kim and Frank Dux, people whos background seems pretty clouded, while NinjUtsu, is linked to Hatsumi, one whos background is quite different from the above mentioned folks.
Mike
MJS said:
A lot depends on what you're working on. It seems that many people today don't learn how to work with a partner. They either passively put an attack out to be blocked/trapped/whatevered, or they try to kill their partner! What they miss is the continuum; when you first learn a technique, your partner should be letting you do it without much resistance or adding any complications. As you develop the technique, the resistance and complications should increase. So should the risk; when I teach a brand new white belt a block, they aren't really in danger of being hit. But...when I work that same block with another black belt or with a more advanced student, there's a real possibility that they'll get hit.
The other part of "what are you working on" is that you want to try to work the technique you're practicing. If I'm working an upward/rising block, then that's what I want to use. If the technique is rising block followed by a straight punch to the face, that's what I should be doing. If I'm working on adapting the technique as I go (working the principle, not rote memory of moves, in other words), then I want to keep that principle when I adapt. So, if the principle is block/punch...that's what I should be doing, not block/trap/throw.
I thought the whole idea of learning techs in the first place was to continualy test them against continualy advancing resistance. Sparing is a rule based setting to do so.
Sean
Sean
MJS said:
I think that is what judo, sambo and BJJ practitioners try to do both standing (when throwing) and on the ground. Yet, strength is still important and the ability to switch to a different throw or submission is an aquired skill - also, rarely are throws or submissions utterly effortless even though that is the ideal.
Sure. There is a whole theory of chained switches and most fighters don't try to muscle heavily through submissions. However, it always takes a little bit of strength to do anything, and more than a bit of skill to switch between techniques when one isn't working. It isn't something that you can just do... I don't think I've ever seen an armbar where the recipient isn't trying to flex his arm to escape or a choke where the recipient isn't trying to pull the arm away - there isn't zero resistance even if you are Rickson Gracie fighting a white belt. Rather, good practioners try to flow to where the resistance is least effective, or where their own strength is most leveraged - they don't assume they will meet zero resistance.
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