Training in Three TMA

[現代の忍者]

Hey there,

I'm currently training in the Bujinkan and also Cuong Nhu. So far, since picking up the second art, I've only noticed positive improvements in my taijutsu in both arts. Cuong Nhu focuses mainly on atemiwaza (but also some soft-style things), while my Bujinkan training is a unique mix of striking, throwing, and take-downs.

There is Japanese Jujutsu that is offered, and was created by the head of my Cuong Nhu dojo that I am interested in. I realize that the Bujinkan trains in jutaijutsu and that the arts are similar. However, I'm hoping that the Japanese Jujutsu will focus more on grappling and groundwork. I'm in good shape, and train everyday but would training in three arts at once be too extreme?

To anyone that has experience or knowledge in jujutsu and jutaijutsu, would I be learning the same basic techniques? Would it be redundant to add jujutsu? It is only offered once a week.

Thanks!

 

[Buka]

I have no experience with any of what you mentioned, but welcome to the forum, bro.

 

[Hanzou]

Cuong Nhu is a martial art that blends elements of Shotokan, Wing Chun, Judo, Aikido, T'ai chi ch'uan, Vovinam,[3] and Boxing.[4]

Cuong Nhu - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

I think you're covered. Why do you want to learn ANOTHER style?

 

[Chris Parker]

Hey there,

Hi Nick. Hmm… the user name in kanji might throw some people, for the record… I mean, I can read it (Gendai no Ninja, "Modern Day Ninja"), but… not everyone here can. And, to those who can't, it's just going to look like random lines

I'm currently training in the Bujinkan and also Cuong Nhu.

Okay…

So far, since picking up the second art, I've only noticed positive improvements in my taijutsu in both arts.

So… the obvious question is: how long have you been training in both of these systems?

Cuong Nhu focuses mainly on atemiwaza (but also some soft-style things), while my Bujinkan training is a unique mix of striking, throwing, and take-downs.

Okay… not exactly the way I'd describe them, but sure.

There is Japanese Jujutsu that is offered, and was created by the head of my Cuong Nhu dojo that I am interested in.

Er… so… your, presumably, Western teacher of a modern, eclectic and rather odd Vietnamese art, which contains realistically no actual Japanese Jujutsu itself (modern iterations of Judo and Aikido are claimed, but realistically, no) has created an art he claims is Japanese Jujutsu? Just a quick one then… What makes him think it's anything like actual Japanese Jujutsu at all?

I realize that the Bujinkan trains in jutaijutsu and that the arts are similar.

No, not similar… the same. Ju(tai)jutsu = Jujutsu. As does Yawara, Taijutsu, Hade, Kogusoku, Kumiuchi, Te, Wajutsu, Goho, and a number of other ryu-ha specific terms. The thing is, Jujutsu is a relatively general categorisation of a range of Japanese combative methods, focused on unarmed or lightly armed combat… there isn't such a thing as just one form of "jujutsu".

However, I'm hoping that the Japanese Jujutsu will focus more on grappling and groundwork.

Well, most actual Japanese Jujutsu systems don't have much in the way of groundwork at all… grappling is dominantly stand-up. Of course, it will depend on exactly what is being peddled as "Japanese Jujutsu" in this instance...

I'm in good shape, and train everyday but would training in three arts at once be too extreme?

Maybe… or redundant… or it might just be you exposing yourself to systems of lower and lower credibility… but that might be getting ahead of ourselves here.

The real question might be "what do you want to get good at?" If it's one particular art, focus on it. Doing 5 different things each day is less valuable than doing the one thing each day for the 5 days…

To anyone that has experience or knowledge in jujutsu and jutaijutsu, would I be learning the same basic techniques? Would it be redundant to add jujutsu? It is only offered once a week.

Thanks!

Jujutsu, as a name, is so general as to not have any real meaning… a particular system of Jujutsu, on the other hand, would tell us something. That said, techniques aren't the real distinction between arts… at least, not in the way you're thinking. To use your Cuong Nhu example, that system uses a number of different systems to create it's syllabus… but misses the point of all of them. It's an extreme example of thinking techniques are what martial arts are about… and being completely wrong.

 

[BujinBos]

Chris’ posts are always very informative as well as good advice.


My comment is, talk to your Bujinkan instructor about looking at those areas you have interest in that may not have been covered in the classes you have attended. You might be surprised by their willingness to bring those areas into focus during class for you.

 

[Ariyan Parraya]

Jutaijutsu is Ninjutsu's armed combat (銃体術）. full body contact with weapon fighting..

 

[Argus]

Jutaijutsu is Ninjutsu's armed combat (銃体術）. full body contact with weapon fighting..

I'm pretty sure it's just a generic term, as Chris pointed out.
Also, your kanji is wrong. 銃 is the "juu" that means "gun." 柔 is the "juu" in 柔(体)術.
...unless you were trying to make a funny joke here

 

[Drose427]

It depends entirely on you, your discipline, and your health

I got back into boxing and slide into kickboxing after years of Tang Soo Do.

I have moderate Carpal Tunnel in both hands, and boxing/kickboxing kills it, So Im gonna have to focus on TSD and even then shift my reasons for training a bit

At TSD we have a few ex-wrestlers and ex boxers who chose TSD due to physical limitations that make boxing much more difficult. The change of focus from consistent Full contact bouts makes a significant difference on the body.

If you have all the above, by all means.

That said, Bujinkan covers quite a bit of areas of Martial Arts, if trained properly and regularly you're gonna have a decent base in both striking and grappling

Your other style seems pretty expansive as well

But its up to you, if you want more, take it!

That said, the more different things you do, the harder its going to be to excel at one.

 

[drop bear]

OK. Mabye this will put things into perspective.

Here are pretty much picked at random dancers showing off their stuff. Who compete in multi style disciplines that are so similar you have to be an expert to know one dance from the other. But these tiny subtle differences have to be adhered to perfectly. I think they are doing a comp with 8 different dancing styles.

But we can't hobby 3 different martial arts?.

 

[Tez3]

OK. Mabye this will put things into perspective.

Here are pretty much picked at random dancers showing off their stuff. Who compete in multi style disciplines that are so similar you have to be an expert to know one dance from the other. But these tiny subtle differences have to be adhered to perfectly. I think they are doing a comp with 8 different dancing styles.

But we can't hobby 3 different martial arts?.

You don't have to be an expert to tell one dance from another, you just have to watch Strictly Come Dancing! Like the leaves falling it's a sign autumn and winter are coming her in the UK when the partners are chosen for the years competition. yay! love it. A boxer is on it this year and Australia's very own Peter Andre! BBC One - Strictly Come Dancing

 

[oftheherd1]

...

To use your Cuong Nhu example, that system uses a number of different systems to create it's syllabus… but misses the point of all of them. It's an extreme example of thinking techniques are what martial arts are about… and being completely wrong.

Fascinating. I wonder if you would mind elaborating on that. I had never heard of Cuong Nhu and had to look it up on Wikipedia. Amalgamating many techniques is not new in martial arts, but apparently Cuong Nhu does something wrongly different?

Thanks for taking time to enlighten.

 

[Tez3]

By the way, trained dancers can dance just about anything, it isn't so much different styles more like different katas from the same style.

 

[Chris Parker]

Jutaijutsu is Ninjutsu's armed combat (銃体術）. full body contact with weapon fighting..

Er… no, not really. Not at all, actually. And certainly not "full body contact with weapon fighting".

PS I'm assuming that you mis-typed, and meant to say it's Ninjutsu's UNarmed combat… but, as Argus said, your kanji are wrong as well…

I'm pretty sure it's just a generic term, as Chris pointed out.
Also, your kanji is wrong. 銃 is the "juu" that means "gun." 柔 is the "juu" in 柔(体)術.
...unless you were trying to make a funny joke here

Jutaijutsu is a ryu-ha specific term used in a couple of systems linked in with the "Ninjutsu" schools… specifically Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu and a line of Shinden Fudo Ryu. It has also been applied as a generic term in Ninjutsu schools to apply to grappling (locks, throws, chokes etc) methods… but is not really "ninjutsu" at all, nor is it the unarmed combat of ninjutsu… at best, it's a term to describe one aspect of modern ninjutsu schools' unarmed combat methods.

OK. Mabye this will put things into perspective.

Here are pretty much picked at random dancers showing off their stuff. Who compete in multi style disciplines that are so similar you have to be an expert to know one dance from the other. But these tiny subtle differences have to be adhered to perfectly. I think they are doing a comp with 8 different dancing styles.

But we can't hobby 3 different martial arts?.

And… it's really completely different, you know. I mean, you get that the dancers are working to a choreography, a consciously thought-through sequence of actions, yeah? And that, well, no-one's trying to punch them while they do it?

Fascinating. I wonder if you would mind elaborating on that. I had never heard of Cuong Nhu and had to look it up on Wikipedia. Amalgamating many techniques is not new in martial arts, but apparently Cuong Nhu does something wrongly different?

Thanks for taking time to enlighten.

It's a big thing to get through… if you have the time, you might want to read the following thread: Looking for Custom Tambo - Martial Arts Planet if you're short on time, just go to page 4, post 58 for most of the breakdown.

 

[drop bear]

And… it's really completely different, you know. I mean, you get that the dancers are working to a choreography, a consciously thought-through sequence of actions, yeah? And that, well, no-one's trying to punch them while they do it?

Yep. Sounds real different.

 

[geezer]

....It's a big thing to get through… if you have the time, you might want to read the following thread: Looking for Custom Tambo - Martial Arts Planet if you're short on time, just go to page 4, post 58 for most of the breakdown.

Hey Chris, I went over to MAP and read pretty much the whole thread up to and a bit past your post #58. I agree that you did an excellent job in covering the inherent problems in trying to create an all encompassing martial art by blending disparate systems. Frankly, you've saved me the effort of needlessly trying to make the same point.

Incidentally I also began my martial arts journey back in the mid 70s with branch of kung-fu/kenpo that similarly purported to combine the best of a wide number of arts. Fortunately, I finished my undergraduate education relocated to another part of the country where I could not continue the previous "chop suey" art and decided to give Wing Chun a try. A good friend became seriously involved in Shotokan. I realized that either route, hard or soft could yield great rewards, but above all I was grateful that I had found an "authentic" and coherent art to train.

Since that time I've changed instructors and lineages, and have trained a few other arts, but always trying to remain faithful to the core principles behind each separate art and to avoid creating another "chop suey" method.

In summary, your words are wise. I just hope those they are directed at are perceptive enough to, if not take them to heart, at least investigate and verify what you say for themselves. One can only hope

 

[oftheherd1]

...

It's a big thing to get through… if you have the time, you might want to read the following thread: Looking for Custom Tambo - Martial Arts Planet if you're short on time, just go to page 4, post 58 for most of the breakdown.

Thanks, I seem to remember having read that before, but had forgotten.

I may not understand, and if so, that's on me. But I am not sure I agree that blended arts need to be foundationally in a constant state of opposition to the different principles. Of course, that may be my Hapkido background, where we have techniques that are found in other arts (not obviously arguing that Hapkido invented them).

They work independently of each other, whether they are similar to one another or using different concepts. I would have thought that parts of a kata would be the same. But then in the Hapkido I learned, we did not have kata, and I haven't done kata since the mid-60s, and may not have gotten far enough to see or recognize any possible conflicts. The TKD I studied didn't seem to have any conflicts though.

So, your arguments and points are well thought out, and I guess we just have to accept we don't agree. Not a problem for me, and I hope not one for you or anyone else.

 

[geezer]

...I am not sure I agree that blended arts need to be foundationally in a constant state of opposition to the different principles..

I can't speak for Chris, but in my own limited experience, it really depends on what you are blending, and how well it's done. I have no trouble transitioning from my Eskrima to WC and back as the range and situation demands. But there is considerable overlap in the conceptual basis of the particular branches of Eskrima and WC I practice.

What I find to be counterproductive is trying to blend arts that have very different, even contradictory approaches to the same situations. Chris' example of combining Shotokan and Wing Chun is just one example of this in Cuong Nhu. Not judging mind you. Just wouldn't work for me.

And as a person with some experience with sticks, I have to agree with the general disapproval of the stick forms in those clips. Cringeworthy is the term that comes to mind.

 

[Steve]

Sometimes, the transitions themselves will need to be considered and refined when blending styles. I mean, it can be seen all the time, with varying degrees of sophistication, in MMA. People train in several styles independently (TMA or not), and then ALSO train to synthesize them. BJJ, wrestling, boxing, muay thai, TKD.

 

[Flying Crane]

I can't speak for Chris, but in my own limited experience, it really depends on what you are blending, and how well it's done. I have no trouble transitioning from my Eskrima to WC and back as the range and situation demands. But there is considerable overlap in the conceptual basis of the particular branches of Eskrima and WC I practice.

What I find to be counterproductive is trying to blend arts that have very different, even contradictory approaches to the same situations. Chris' example of combining Shotokan and Wing Chun is just one example of this in Cuong Nhu. Not judging mind you. Just wouldn't work for me.

And as a person with some experience with sticks, I have to agree with the general disapproval of the stick forms in those clips. Cringeworthy is the term that comes to mind.

For a while I trained in more than one striking system at the same time. The underlying principles and standards that govern how one trains and develops and throws a simple straight punch were different to the point of being contradictory, between those different methods. It most definitely IS problematic as the practice of one can actually undermine your efforts in the other.

 

[Drose427]

Sometimes, the transitions themselves will need to be considered and refined when blending styles. I mean, it can be seen all the time, with varying degrees of sophistication, in MMA. People train in several styles independently (TMA or not), and then ALSO train to synthesize them. BJJ, wrestling, boxing, muay thai, TKD.

At varying degrees of success, but I think thats what really defines a truly high level MMA fighter.

Someone who can take two very different techniques i.e. MT and the traditional TKD/Karate roundhouses, and just interchange them flawlessly in a fight with picture perfect technique.

We see it alot in grappling too, with high level wrestlers seamlessly blending their wrestling with their BJJ and thus coming up with subs from odd positions and/or takedowns.

Its a very hard thing to do, even with practice/experience