Training for older people

[Gnarlie]

I would make some adjustments. You might be able to run a little less formally, trusting them to come in line without the same disciplinary measures you might use with kids, for example. I'd tweak the self defense for the group's needs. They probably don't need self defense against bullies -- but might need tactics to protect themselves from caregivers and scams targeting the elderly (home improvement, etc.), for example. But at heart -- I'd stay with teaching in the format you've been taught to run a class.

I am finding they have a propensity for talking rather than training. Line drilling is OK but partner exercises can quickly lose pace as they start to vocalise, comment and analyse together. Not that analysis is bad, but these are basic drills that just need repetition to embed basic motions.

I want to say shut up and get on with it, but in a more respectful way... bearing in mind that that needs to happen in a second language, so communicating the same message via action might work better.

I've taken to running the drill to command once per partner then immediately and quickly rotating to a new partner, thereby avoiding talk and trying to instil the positive habit of just doing it. Limited success though.

I find the talk tendency is greater with new motions or more complex ideas, but those things also need to be covered...

 

[Tez3]

I find the talk tendency is greater with new motions or more complex ideas

That's how a great many of us learn I'm afraid. It may be annoying to some but I find that talking for me is the best way to learn, I can't explain it, perhaps Chris Parker could but many of us find it easy to talk ourselves through new techniques and very difficult to do it on one's own which being silent means. I suppose it's like some people can see a technique being done and instantly do it, whereas some of us need to go through it step by step to do it, I'm the latter.
children and younger people are used to being told what to do so they suffer in silence, being older means learning as we want I'm afraid and if that's talking ourselves through it well that's what we do. It's nothing to do with disrespect or not listening.

 

[Gnarlie]

That's how a great many of us learn I'm afraid. It may be annoying to some but I find that talking for me is the best way to learn, I can't explain it, perhaps Chris Parker could but many of us find it easy to talk ourselves through new techniques and very difficult to do it on one's own which being silent means. I suppose it's like some people can see a technique being done and instantly do it, whereas some of us need to go through it step by step to do it, I'm the latter.
children and younger people are used to being told what to do so they suffer in silence, being older means learning as we want I'm afraid and if that's talking ourselves through it well that's what we do. It's nothing to do with disrespect or not listening.

I agree that people learn in different ways. This is one of the adjustments that might need to be made for an older group I think. I can't just run the training in the same way as I would with a younger group, and I am not sure that's an ageist thing, just the way it is with this group.

I don't object to talking through a technique or drilling step by step, but where the thing devolves into discussion and no movement, then I see it as a negative - there is an element of learning by doing, and that's what I am trying to communicate. Otherwise they would easily spend a whole session talking about a movement rather than actually drilling it.

I would rather they drilled it a few hundred times slightly incorrectly than talked about getting it perfect for an hour then drilled it once. The imperfect embedded motion is easier to tweak than an unfamiliar motion they have not drilled in.

I'm talking about movements such as a front stance with a middle block versus a basic punch, for example.

I'm thinking about splitting the session for a new technique into 1. talk and learn and 2. No talk and just drill / embed

 

[Tez3]

I would rather they drilled it a few hundred times slightly incorrectly

I'd hate that, doing a technique a lot of times and then being corrected, it would make me feel like an idiot and that I'd been wasting my time. For you it would be easier but it would make your students feel a bit humiliated. Talking helps memory and that's important when you are older. You sound as if you are exasperated with them already. Do you know why they are taking the class?

The thing with an older group is that they won't accept being told what to do as easily as a younger group used to being told at school etc. They may be used to being their own bosses or in high positions in their working life, they certainly have enough life experience not to accept instruction without wanting to know the why's and wherefores. They will also know better than you how they learn, they know what works for them. You will know the martial arts techniques but they know how to learn it for them. You are going to have to come to a compromise. They won't be an obedient group as the children are, they won't be as able to remember things as teenagers are ( do you know how much information and memories are in our brains it's hard cramming more in).

 

[Gnarlie]

I'd hate that, doing a technique a lot of times and then being corrected, it would make me feel like an idiot and that I'd been wasting my time. For you it would be easier but it would make your students feel a bit humiliated. Talking helps memory and that's important when you are older. You sound as if you are exasperated with them already. Do you know why they are taking the class?

I may have miscommunicated that. What I mean is, I don't expect them as beginners to perform the technique at perfect black belt standard. The core movement does need to be right though, but polish comes later.

I'm not exasperated by them. I do find them challenging as a group, and that's why I wanted to discuss it here. I am keen to reflect on the training methods I use and perhaps adjust them.

They have different reasons for taking the class. Some for SD, some for fitness, some for philosophical interest, some to keep the brain in gear, and some to stay limber.

The thing with an older group is that they won't accept being told what to do as easily as a younger group used to being told at school etc. They may be used to being their own bosses or in high positions in their working life, they certainly have enough life experience not to accept instruction without wanting to know the why's and wherefores. They will also know better than you how they learn, they know what works for them. You will know the martial arts techniques but they know how to learn it for them. You are going to have to come to a compromise. They won't be an obedient group as the children are, they won't be as able to remember things as teenagers are ( do you know how much information and memories are in our brains it's hard cramming more in).

This is all true. I am asking here to determine what that compromise might look like. I want to be aware, flexible and tolerant, but I also want to challenge them and encourage them, and not coddle / patronise / humiliate / overwhelm / etc them. I've spent my working life in adult education, but this is different and I want to be sensitive to that. It is a minefield, and just going out there to teach a :normal: class might not be what the situation calls for.

I hope I am not coming across as an arrogant young whippersnapper here. I'll be more tolerant of their talking through, and cut a bit more slack based on your comments. Thank you Tez3. This thread is definitely one of the most rewarding interactions I have had since joining MT.

 

[Tez3]

I hope I am not coming across as an arrogant young whippersnapper here

Good lord no, just someone who's lucky enough not to be old yet!

Teaching women I've found along with my own learning means we do talk more about what we are doing, it may be that we are used to doing more than one thing at a time lol. My mother used to knit, following a pattern while watching television, it's kind of like that. I'm sorry I don't have any of the proper terms for that sort of learning and I'm not explain it too well. My friend and I found when we started karate ( both young and female) if we were on the pads for example if we talked we could hit much better, it's a sort of unconscious thing where if we concentrated hard it wouldn't work whereas if we talked and let it come naturally it did work, does that make sense?
Much later on I learnt to do it instinctively. Of course it could be me that's odd!
I think your older class may have different expectations of class, sort of like children who are used to school timetables who then go to university where they are expected to manage their learning as opposed to being managed. The older people are seasoned uni students used to managing their learning and would find it difficult to go back to the school type of learning.
Maybe the best thing is to get them together and ask them how they want the class to go? Unorthodox by martial arts standards but could be productive?

 

[Earl Weiss]

If the talking is needed to understand a technique then perhaps the teaching methodology is an issue. There are 3 types of learners (The factors overlap in each individual) Auditory, Visual and Tactile. When teaching an instructor should use the first 2 extensively and consecutively as needed but telling the student what to do as well as showing them. For those students still needing refinement, they tactile need should be addressed by touching / moving / placing them or their limbs in the correct way.

 

[jks9199]

It might help to simply make them aware of the problem, and maybe come up with a "code phrase" for talking too much and not doing. I know my students have figured that when I realize I am diverted into too much discussion with me talking, I've got a couple of phrases that I'll use to wrap up and give them the clue that they're about to start working again. For example "but I'm yakking too much..."

Two other thoughts. They are perhaps more naturally going to analyze deeper than a younger student, but that also means that they can understand why they need to simply do things, too. The other is that they may be finding a way to get some rest; are they at a physical limit? Or just a boredom limit?

 

[TrueJim]

There are 3 types of learners (The factors overlap in each individual) Auditory, Visual and Tactile...

By the way, this applies to any kind of teaching, they say. (I'm sure Earl already knows this.) Whether you're teaching martial arts, pottery-making, or physics, different people learn differently. What's more, the way a person learns changes through their lives.

• Children are generally strong tactile/kinesthetic learners, but as they get older they tend to shift to either auditory or visual.
• Girls especially tend to become auditory learners as they age. Boys will go either way. Since women are more-often-than-not auditory learners, and men are about equally mixed, visual learners tend to be men (but not always of course).

These are just general trends though, not hard-and-fast rules. Some people remain kinesthetic learners throughout their lives. Still, when teaching a class of seniors, one shouldn't be too surprised if there aren't many kinesthetic learners in the class.

(I used to teach college Calculus...during my teacher-training then I was introduced to all this. But there are plenty of additional references on the interwebs, for example: Visual Auditory Kinesthetic Learners - FamilyEducation.com )

Personally, I can't memorize forms without knowing the names of all the techniques at each step -- I don't think I was ever a kinesthetic learner, even when I was very young. Going through the movements with me over and over again won't help: I can't memorize it without the names.

Because all my instructors are Korean, they tend to not provide the names when they're teaching us. Sometimes when I lead a small group in our taekwondo class, I'll go through the names of the techniques with my students, and it's funny...you'll hear little gasps of satisfaction from a few of my students as we go through the poomsae: they're so relieved to finally know the names. I can always tell who the auditory learners are when I'm teaching forms...their little gasps of satisfaction.

My young son is already leaning toward being a visual learner. For him, it helps to study diagrams. That's what lead me to write Poomsae Designer (Poomsae Designer - Taekwondo Wiki ) - I needed diagrams that a child could understand. (There should be an article coming up in the next Totally Taekwondo about Poomsae Designer, by the way - it's free / Open Source if anybody wants to play with it -- it's downloadable from the wiki.)

 

[Earl Weiss]

.................. come up with a "code phrase" for talking too much and not doing.

How about STFU?

 

[Tez3]

How about STFU?

They may be offended because they believe they are working hard. That the instructor doesn't is a difference of opinion which they are going to have to sit down and work out. Either that or the students and/or the instructor leaves.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Couple things, one about STFU....first that is just plain wrong, about a woman in her 50s, 60s or 70s being told to STFU or for that matter many men in that age group..... yeah, I think you get the picture of a dwindling student base. But I will tell you what my Taiji sifu does... he stops talking and stands there calmly looking at the class.... believe it or not that seems to get us old folks attention pretty well. One of my Xingyi teachers was big on saying things like, “are you here to train or talk, if it is talk go outside, I want to train”. But the class demographic was considerably different, Xingyiquan tends to bring in martial arts crazies, such as myself, who think if it doesn’t hurt it ain’t training, so the classes tend to be very small and focused.

Now I have been thinking about this age of teacher vs. age of class thing, I have been thinking about training with a few people in Boston, all are skilled but I am dealing with 2 issues with this though. One of course is distance, and this applies to all of them, I need to travel a few hours to train with them. But the other is most definitely age based with 2 of them; I am wondering whether or not they can actually train me based on my age and past injuries. I have talked with one of them and he seems to be pretty much saying (indirectly) well I am not sure you can handle it, even though I handle lower stances in Chen style, he does not appear to want to have to worry about it so I have pretty much ruled him out, even though he comes highly recommended with an impressive lineage. The other I have yet to talk to seriously about going, and I will admit that is because of his age, and the fact I have been at this longer than he has been alive, although he does have considerably more time in the style I am looking, and based on the experience with the prior teacher I am wondering if he can or would seriously train me. However, should I decide to pursue this you can be assured that I will most definitely have a discussion with him about my concerns as it applies to my age and history of injuries.

So a long way of saying I guess this can and does work both ways. From a younger teachers perspective you would have to give your older students confidence in you as it applies to their limitations and not make them feel they are being discriminated against based on age. And from the older students perspective you need to let the teacher know what your limitations are and not go into this with the attitude that I can keep up with this whipper snapper (another form of age discrimination by the way) when in fact you know in your bones (sometimes literally) you can’t. But with that said there is a 70 year old Sempai at my daughters Aikido school that just got his black belt last year and that guy literally can keep up with everyone in the room and most of the time leaves the floor with a lot more energy than many of the much younger students. So not all of us old folks are old beat-up tired and infirm (well I am) but many are not.

To quote Dirty Harry "A man's (or woman) GOT to know his limitations."

 

[Earl Weiss]

.................. come up with a "code phrase" for talking too much and not doing.

They may be offended because they believe they are working hard. That the instructor doesn't is a difference of opinion which they are going to have to sit down and work out. Either that or the students and/or the instructor leaves.

Well, someone asked for a code phrase!

What is a code phrase for lost humor in internet posts?

 

[Hyoho]

Reading this post do some people really think that 50/60 is over the hill. Maybe its a bit late to start but I've seen guys armoured up moving like ballet dancers to beat the crap out of 7th dans. Take off the armour and its a 78 year old national grading panel judge.

 

[Tez3]

.................. come up with a "code phrase" for talking too much and not doing.



Well, someone asked for a code phrase!

What is a code phrase for lost humor in internet posts?

Not a lost sense of humour but a case of too many people thinking that 'old' means you are useless and senile. It's a big think in the UK at the moment, old people in hospital are called bed blockers because they have to wait for care to be arranged, old people are left to die in cold houses and old people are considered as disposable. The very fact someone has to post asking how to teach/train 'old 'people is enough to make you lose your sense of humour frankly.

The ignored elderly We ve become invisible to society say half of over 65s Daily Mail Online

 

[Earl Weiss]

....... It's a big think in the UK .....

If you are in the UK, and I am in the USA that could say a lot about humorous intentions being lost in the translation, or as someone said. "England and the USA, two countries seperated by a common language".

 

[Tez3]

If you are in the UK, and I am in the USA that could say a lot about humorous intentions being lost in the translation, or as someone said. "England and the USA, two countries seperated by a common language".

To be honest there was nothing to indicate it was meant to be humorous.

 

[Gnarlie]

Just a question further question then in addition to my original post: if there's nothing different to be taken into consideration when training older people, why does the group I've inherited 'senior training' exist, and why do people join it. I am at a loss...

 

[Xue Sheng]

First I never said they were not different, but one reason is, we simply don't want to be around all those kids

 

[Tez3]

Just a question further question then in addition to my original post: if there's nothing different to be taken into consideration when training older people, why does the group I've inherited 'senior training' exist, and why do people join it. I am at a loss...

Perhaps the previous instructor wanted it that way? Or the time suits older people who don't have to get up to go to work/school? Perhaps they didn't have a chance to train in the 'ordinary' classes they were shunted into a 'senior' class? Perhaps they liked the instructor? Perhaps they didn't like the others? perhaps they don't like training with children ( I don't believe that children and adults should train together anyway) Perhaps they were offered a discount so they wouldn't have to be seen to 'slow down' a regular class? Do they get the opportunity to join regular classes or when they inquire and say their age they are automatically put in the senior class.