Training at the Source

[O'Malley]

I have no intention on explaining that to you, I think that you're in a better position to value how going to Okinawa would improve your learning or not. If your current Sensei gives you better training than anyone in Okinawa then more power to you.

For my personal situation: I train aikido under a Godan (Aikikai) in Belgium. I could train with a much higher ranked teacher (like 7-8th dan) if I went to the Hombu Dojo in Japan (the source). I could also go to the much closer Paris to train under Christian Tissier (8th dan) which is one of the most respected teachers in the world. I wouldn't need to "go to the source".

It might be beneficial to me and I might travel to Japan in the future to expand my knowledge, just to see (and hopefully feel) what the top guys in aikido can do. But for now I'm in no rush: I'm still a beginner and I have so much to learn from my current teacher who's great.

My previous comment was about pasta (and I confirm said comment).

 

[Dudi Nisan]

With regard to the OP, it is clear he never intended to entertain any discussion about going versus not going.

Maybe I just think differently than you?

. He believes he will receive great benefit. In such cases, he should do as he pleases. If he wants opinions, he now has them. But he didn't really want opinions, it seems to me. He wanted affirmation.

Actually, very little of the discussion was about actually training in Okinawa. Among the discussants you are the only one who lived/trained there. Actually, there was very little on how Okinawan masters differ, than, say, American masters.

 

[oaktree]

I personally do not think you need to train at the source persay, if you are getting what you need and your teacher is partaking in giving you authentic instructions.
I think training at the source when you can not even grasp kihon basics doesn't seem worth the trouble. However, if you have a good grasp and want to dive deeper in the meaning of said art then training at the source may widen your understanding.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Maybe I just think differently than you?

Everyone is permitted to think any way they wish. However, when one asks 'should I stay or should I go' and then presents every 'stay' comment with a counterpoint indicating that 'go' is what they intend to do, then one came to the discussion with an agenda in mind. Recognizing this, I refuse to play your little game any longer.

Actually, very little of the discussion was about actually training in Okinawa. Among the discussants you are the only one who lived/trained there. Actually, there was very little on how Okinawan masters differ, than, say, American masters.

I suspect that the fact that I lived there for a year has influenced me to the extent that the romance does not exist. It's a small island. Hot, humid, and very smelly. However, it is the birthplace of modern-day karate. Go if you wish to go. Just don't ask opinions if you have already made up your mind; that's not nice.

 

[Dudi Nisan]

Just don't ask opinions if you have already made up your mind; that's not nice.

I am sorry you see it that way. I truly am.

I was speaking of my experience in the Chinese world. And my opinion is that average level of gongfu in the East is higher and that Eastern masters know much more than their Western counterparts. If someone asked me whether to come to the East to learn gongfu I would point out these advantages.

And I say again, there was not much comparison between Okinawa-West in the above discussion. And I am sorry to hear that your one year in Okinawa killed the romance. I would like to know, however, whether others have been there and fallen in love with it.

I personally do not think you need to train at the source persay, if you are getting what you need and your teacher is partaking in giving you authentic instructions.
I think training at the source when you can not even grasp kihon basics doesn't seem worth the trouble. However, if you have a good grasp and want to dive deeper in the meaning of said art then training at the source may widen your understanding.

Thanks man, this is a good advice!
.

 

[kuniggety]

That was quick - I guess globalization has sped up that process, too. I'd still guess (and it's nothing more than a guess) that there's a dense pocket near the origin in Brazil that's not found in the US. Although with so many Gracies here, that may not be true, either.

It was in the 90s that there seemed to be a mass migration of the BJJ masters to the US - most likely for monetary/way of life reasons. They've all raised black belts who are raising their own black belts which have helped with the spread. California and Hawaii are especially FULL of BJJ schools but it's definitely found about everywhere now.

As for the OP, having lived in Okinawa from 2005 - 2009, I would whole-heartedly recommend a trip. It's a beautiful place with an even more beautiful people. For whatever reason, I didn't study karate when I was there (kick myself now). I did aikido a little bit. The training bit didn't feel any different than if I was doing the training somewhere in the US. That aside, I really loved Okinawa, and would move back without much hesitation.

 

[jks9199]

Train at the source -- or train with a solid connection to the source?

Can you rely on better training if you travel? Or will you be one of a ton of foreigners squeezed into a training hall relying on someone to translate who'd rather be training themselves?

I don't think you necessarily have to go to the nation/place of origin to get the best training. Often, travelers end up in "visiting classes" where they don't get the training they believe they're getting because the locals are busy trying to get their own training in, or they're all going to the home training hall to attend the most senior instructor -- and they aren't really ready for those lessons yet. They'd do better spending the time with other instructors who can give them focused attention that will make them ready for the "big lesson."

But they do need a connection to the top teachers and the source material. As Bill noted, move a step or two away, and the lessons get blurred or lost. I've seen this in my own art. I'm fortunate enough to train under a first generation student of the man who introduced our art to the US -- and through that connection (especially) to have had training time with the grandmaster himself. Not just a class for 100 plus -- but specific personal training and correction. We have that solid connection to the source. For one koryu art (sorry; I forget which), the head of the style is now in the US, and the art isn't being taught in Japan any more, if I recall correctly. For BJJ -- lots of top instructors have relocated or at least colocated to the US.

So... you need to train under people who maintain connections to the highest level of the art -- which may or may not require overseas travel.

But... if you have the opportunity -- why not go? Feel the culture, experience the people, train in what becomes avaibaablether.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have no intention on explaining that to you, I think that you're in a better position to value how going to Okinawa would improve your learning or not. If your current Sensei gives you better training than anyone in Okinawa then more power to you.

For my personal situation: I train aikido under a Godan (Aikikai) in Belgium. I could train with a much higher ranked teacher (like 7-8th dan) if I went to the Hombu Dojo in Japan (the source). I could also go to the much closer Paris to train under Christian Tissier (8th dan) which is one of the most respected teachers in the world. I wouldn't need to "go to the source".

It might be beneficial to me and I might travel to Japan in the future to expand my knowledge, just to see (and hopefully feel) what the top guys in aikido can do. But for now I'm in no rush: I'm still a beginner and I have so much to learn from my current teacher who's great.

My previous comment was about pasta (and I confirm said comment).

And I would argue that Tissier Sensei may be a better choice, since he's more likely to understand the culture you live in and practice the art in.

 

[Andrew Green]

Explain to me where in Okinawa I would obtain training in my Okinawan karate style (Isshin Ryu) which is better than the training I already receive. Something I would get which I cannot get from my Sensei.

There is none.

I suspect trips like this aren't real about the training, as much as the experience. You want to go and visit Shimabuku's village? Train on a beach in the Pacific? People don't go to Italy just to learn how to make pasta, people don't go to Jerusalem just to read the bible, people don't go to Okinawa just to learn how to do a kata and people don't go to Vegas just to play cards.

Maybe those things matter to you, maybe not. from a purely functional perspective going all that way likely makes no sense. But if the experience is something that you place value on go for it. Lots of people do, and in many different styles. For some people the experience and the immersion alone will make a improvement in your training.

Going to Vatican city is not going to make anyone a better Catholic, they have the same knowledge everywhere. But I suspect if you interview visitors a lot will tell you it was a life changing experience. People even travelled to go see a grilled cheese sandwich that looked like the Virgin Mary, and someone bought that thing for $28.000... probably didn't even taste very good by the time it was sold.

Anyways, guess my answer is the trip is worth it if it's worth it to the person. And that is going to depend entirely on that person and what they value.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I suspect trips like this aren't real about the training, as much as the experience. You want to go and visit Shimabuku's village? Train on a beach in the Pacific? People don't go to Italy just to learn how to make pasta, people don't go to Jerusalem just to read the bible, people don't go to Okinawa just to learn how to do a kata and people don't go to Vegas just to play cards.

Maybe those things matter to you, maybe not. from a purely functional perspective going all that way likely makes no sense. But if the experience is something that you place value on go for it. Lots of people do, and in many different styles. For some people the experience and the immersion alone will make a improvement in your training.

Going to Vatican city is not going to make anyone a better Catholic, they have the same knowledge everywhere. But I suspect if you interview visitors a lot will tell you it was a life changing experience. People even travelled to go see a grilled cheese sandwich that looked like the Virgin Mary, and someone bought that thing for $28.000... probably didn't even taste very good by the time it was sold.

Anyways, guess my answer is the trip is worth it if it's worth it to the person. And that is going to depend entirely on that person and what they value.

Agreed. I'd love to make a trip to Hokkaido, even though NGA no longer exists there. I might even be able to dig up enough information to find the area where the original dojo was, though I doubt I could do more than stand nearby and enjoy the feeling of being near where it started.

 

[Tez3]

people don't go to Jerusalem just to read the bible

Sometimes they end up in a mental hospital...Jerusalem Syndrome is a very real mental health issue.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I suspect trips like this aren't real about the training, as much as the experience. You want to go and visit Shimabuku's village? Train on a beach in the Pacific? People don't go to Italy just to learn how to make pasta, people don't go to Jerusalem just to read the bible, people don't go to Okinawa just to learn how to do a kata and people don't go to Vegas just to play cards.

Maybe those things matter to you, maybe not. from a purely functional perspective going all that way likely makes no sense. But if the experience is something that you place value on go for it. Lots of people do, and in many different styles. For some people the experience and the immersion alone will make a improvement in your training.

Going to Vatican city is not going to make anyone a better Catholic, they have the same knowledge everywhere. But I suspect if you interview visitors a lot will tell you it was a life changing experience. People even travelled to go see a grilled cheese sandwich that looked like the Virgin Mary, and someone bought that thing for $28.000... probably didn't even taste very good by the time it was sold.

Anyways, guess my answer is the trip is worth it if it's worth it to the person. And that is going to depend entirely on that person and what they value.

That's not what was said. I was specifically replying to the comment that since pasta in Italy is demonstrably better than pasta elsewhere, therefore karate in Okinawa is demonstrably better than karate elsewhere. I challenged that statement on that basis only. The argument is a false analogy. I can't speak for pasta, but I can speak for my own training.

I entirely get that visiting Okinawa has its own rewards that are quite aside from the actual training. That wasn't what I was replying to.

 

[O'Malley]

And I would argue that Tissier Sensei may be a better choice, since he's more likely to understand the culture you live in and practice the art in.

He might, or he might not. The reason I think that it would be beneficial to train with him is because his aikido is amazing and if I want to "steal" good aikido for myself it makes sense to try to get it from such a teacher. But I think the same about the other top practicioners in the world (such as our Dany Leclerre Shihan, first aikido 7th dan in Belgian history).

I'm not sure how much Tissier Shihan understanding Western/French culture would make him a better teacher to learn from than, say, our current Doshu or the top guys at Hombu Dojo. It might help, but it's also possible that the emphasis put on a concept by another teacher "clicks" better with me. Or it could be the personality of a particular teacher, or the environment of the classes.

It might be because aikido is a very personal art, everyone does the same thing but with different "flavours" even when they trained under the same person, putting emphasis on different shades of the art (Tohei vs Shioda vs Saotome vs Yamaguchi vs Kisshomaru Ueshiba Doshu). Even as a beginner, I can feel those differences in my own aikido club and I've seen it before in Kajukenbo, even between people of the same rank.

That's not what was said. I was specifically replying to the comment that since pasta in Italy is demonstrably better than pasta elsewhere, therefore karate in Okinawa is demonstrably better than karate elsewhere. I challenged that statement on that basis only. The argument is a false analogy. I can't speak for pasta, but I can speak for my own training.

I entirely get that visiting Okinawa has its own rewards that are quite aside from the actual training. That wasn't what I was replying to.

As I said before, you replied to a statement that was not made on this thread.

Is an Okinawan teacher necessarily better than an American teacher just because he's from Okinawa? No, he isn't. It depends on both teachers' practice of the art and what you'll get from training with them.

Does it mean that if you've got a good teacher in America you "have no one to visit in Okinawa" for training purposes? Well, if you're satisfied with your training it's perfectly ok to stay in the US and be a "serious karateka". However, if you're curious about other perspectives to broaden your understanding of the art you might want to check out other good teachers. In your Isshin Ryu, it seems that the son of the founder teaches in Okinawa (I looked it up). He might not be a better teacher for you but he might bring something valuable to the table, something that some people would want to check out.

To the OP, if you want to try that journey, search for a respected teacher from Okinawa and go find out if he has what you seek. If anything, you'll have an adventure to talk about.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

He might, or he might not. The reason I think that it would be beneficial to train with him is because his aikido is amazing and if I want to "steal" good aikido for myself it makes sense to try to get it from such a teacher. But I think the same about the other top practicioners in the world (such as our Dany Leclerre Shihan, first aikido 7th dan in Belgian history).

I'm not sure how much Tissier Shihan understanding Western/French culture would make him a better teacher to learn from than, say, our current Doshu or the top guys at Hombu Dojo. It might help, but it's also possible that the emphasis put on a concept by another teacher "clicks" better with me. Or it could be the personality of a particular teacher, or the environment of the classes.

It might be because aikido is a very personal art, everyone does the same thing but with different "flavours" even when they trained under the same person, putting emphasis on different shades of the art (Tohei vs Shioda vs Saotome vs Yamaguchi vs Kisshomaru Ueshiba Doshu). Even as a beginner, I can feel those differences in my own aikido club and I've seen it before in Kajukenbo, even between people of the same rank.

Agreed. My point was simply that, for most people (hence the 'may be'), it's easier to learn from someone with similar cultural references. Your references would be similar to those of Tissier (who I referred to because I know his reputation well), so his analogies would likely be more immediately meaningful than a similarly skilled instructor from an Eastern culture. As you said, though, sometimes it's the differences that make some idea "click", so I'm by no means saying there's no value in studying under someone from a different culture. I simply don't like it when folks assert that there is some inherent superiority in the instruction that is closest to the original culture. That imputes a lesser value to the teaching of those like Tissier (and, I assume, Leclerre) who have risen to a similar level of ability in technique and teaching.

 

[Buka]

Bottom line to me - if you can, why wouldn't you go to Okinawa? Or anywhere else you want to go, for that matter?

 

[JR 137]

I don't know much about Gung Fu, so I can't really comment on China vs everywhere else. But what I know of Okinawan karate...

A lot of the current schools here in the States were started by service men stationed in Okinawa. Those men were there for a few years, trained in karate, and brought it back home. My question is how advanced we're those original students? Were they taught some sort of accelerated program in the few years they were there and came back as true masters of the art, or did they learn a little more than the basics (relatively speaking)? By all accounts they were quite good and no-nonsense hard nosed guys who were badasses. But how "advanced" was their training? Did they make regular trips back and/or bring their teachers here to get further training? One could argue that going to Okinawa to learn stuff those teachers didn't learn would advance the art here.

However that was quite some time ago, and many Okinawans have come here, and many Americans have gone back.

But I'm really left with an interesting analogy - the further I get from Buffalo, NY, the worse the wings get. They can acceptable elsewhere, but my 2 years in the Buffalo area for grad school taught me what Buffalo wings really are. Same for pizza in NYC.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't know much about Gung Fu, so I can't really comment on China vs everywhere else. But what I know of Okinawan karate...

A lot of the current schools here in the States were started by service men stationed in Okinawa. Those men were there for a few years, trained in karate, and brought it back home. My question is how advanced we're those original students? Were they taught some sort of accelerated program in the few years they were there and came back as true masters of the art, or did they learn a little more than the basics (relatively speaking)? By all accounts they were quite good and no-nonsense hard nosed guys who were badasses. But how "advanced" was their training? Did they make regular trips back and/or bring their teachers here to get further training? One could argue that going to Okinawa to learn stuff those teachers didn't learn would advance the art here.

However that was quite some time ago, and many Okinawans have come here, and many Americans have gone back.

But I'm really left with an interesting analogy - the further I get from Buffalo, NY, the worse the wings get. They can acceptable elsewhere, but my 2 years in the Buffalo area for grad school taught me what Buffalo wings really are. Same for pizza in NYC.

There's some real truth in your analogy, JR. The truth is that the wings aren't worse further from Buffalo - they're just not real "Buffalo" wings. They change as they move further away, mostly meeting the tastes of the region they move into. Some folks will prefer the wings in the South, though they're not objectively better than those in Buffalo. The same goes, in many ways, for the MA as they move further from their source.

Your point about the short initial study is valid, as is your observation that there has been continued interaction since then. I'd say distance from the source is a valid issue early in an art's expansion, because a new instructor has little additional interaction with others in the art. After a point (and we're well past that point in most arts), that's not an issue, since there are many others bringing ideas and understanding for the new instructor to interact with. NGA is a good example of this. There was a single point of transmission (Richard Bowe, who brought the art to the US). It must have been difficult for him to gain additional understanding of the art as he was teaching it, since he didn't have any other advanced practitioners nearby to work with. Now, however, there are enough advanced practitioners (at least on the Eastern seabord) for ideas to spawn and grow as well here as they would at the source (if the source had active instructors in the art).

 

[JR 137]

There's some real truth in your analogy, JR. The truth is that the wings aren't worse further from Buffalo - they're just not real "Buffalo" wings. They change as they move further away, mostly meeting the tastes of the region they move into. Some folks will prefer the wings in the South, though they're not objectively better than those in Buffalo. The same goes, in many ways, for the MA as they move further from their source.

Your point about the short initial study is valid, as is your observation that there has been continued interaction since then. I'd say distance from the source is a valid issue early in an art's expansion, because a new instructor has little additional interaction with others in the art. After a point (and we're well past that point in most arts), that's not an issue, since there are many others bringing ideas and understanding for the new instructor to interact with. NGA is a good example of this. There was a single point of transmission (Richard Bowe, who brought the art to the US). It must have been difficult for him to gain additional understanding of the art as he was teaching it, since he didn't have any other advanced practitioners nearby to work with. Now, however, there are enough advanced practitioners (at least on the Eastern seabord) for ideas to spawn and grow as well here as they would at the source (if the source had active instructors in the art).

I guess you are now the source. I wonder how NGA would be if it was reintroduced to Japan. Or even introduced to the west coast.

On karate in the US vs in Okinawa...

I don't know anyone who's spent any time training there recently (besides a few people who did "back in the day"). I've seen some videos of karate training in Okinawa. Seems quite different than what's common here. The techniques seem close enough, but the training itself seems very different. Lots of body hardening/conditioning. Strategy and application seem different than what I commonly see here.

But all of that has to be taken with a grain of salt. Those are just videos. Some of them, such as Samurai Spirit: Karate and Tee: The Spirit of Okinawan Karate could be considered propaganda films, for lack of a better phase. Seeing videos of guys like Morio Higaonna and Taira Masaji seem like they're doing things differently than what I see as the norm here.

Then again, there are plenty of Okinawan born and raised karateka on a seminar circuit (again, for lack of a better phrase) here. My former sensei routinely attends Masaji seminars and has recently received rank or some sort of public acknowledgement from Masaji.

I don't know; it all gets a bit confusing to me. I guess the only way to really see if there's a difference is to personally spend a good amount of time training there. Not going to happen any time soon for a lot of reasons.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I guess you are now the source. I wonder how NGA would be if it was reintroduced to Japan. Or even introduced to the west coast.

There's a bit of representation on the west coast (at least in the northwest). There's an instructor who has a vision for reintroducing NGA to Japan, and wants to see a dojo in Hokkaido again by 2020. I won't be doing that, but I'd certainly put for the effort to visit if someone did.