Is Kyokushin Traditional??

[K-man]

"Whether or not the kata have real purpose?" EXCELLENT!! That is what makes karate traditional or not. The Rengokai in Okinawa says 50 years of consistentcy makes a style traditional. I believe Kyokushin has 50 years in exsistence.

Did I miss something? Why would you write "Whether or not the kata have real purpose?"


To be recognized by the Okinawan Prefecture Karate Rengokai as being a traditional karate system or style, certain criteria must be met. The system must have existed at least 50 years. In addition, it must have maintained it’s original forms as taught by the founder of the style, with no variations.


You must have forgotten the rest of the requirement. The other element is that the system must have maintained its original forms as well. Oyama studied Shotokan for several years then swapped to Japanese Goju where he rose to 8th dan. But Yamaguchi changed the Goju kata and Japanese Goju is different to Okinawan Goju in other aspects as well. He introduced many kata and made four up himself including Garyu.

You could call Kyokushin a traditional 'style' as long as it is identical to the style taught by Oyama back in the 50s but since his death it could be argued legally that NONE of the Kyokushin schools are legitimate Kyokushin apart from the original Honbu, IKO. All other schools have broken away and many have changed things.

So technically, by this definition, Kyokushin, if still practised with all of the kata from its inception could be 'traditional' but still would not be recognised by the Okinawan Rengokai as it is not Okinawan.

At present, there are only three recognized styles, Shorin-Ryu, Goju Ryu and Uechi-Ryu.
Isshin Ryu is trying to achieve recognition. :asian:

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Sorry K-Man.. No I didn't forget the rest of the requirement I was just in a rush early. Someone made a comment about kata having a real purpose vs. kata as a dance. That's what I was referencing. Sorry for being vague. Gomenasai!!

 

[Brandon Fisher]

K-Man,
Just a note about Isshinryu trying to gain that recognition of being a traditional style. I think Uechi Sensei who is working on that is really making a strong effort to make it happen I think it will be a very difficult task but after working out with Uechi Sensei and Shimabuku Sensei in Okinawa not being a Isshinryu stylist I can say I believe what Uechi Sensei is doing is what Tatsuo Shimabuku did.

I know a different topic for a different time.

 

[Victor Smith]

Traditional depends on how you define it.

1.If you break karate into periods of creation using Joe Swift's rough guidelines:

Classical - pre 1900
Traditional - 1900-1950
Modern post- 1950
Current - past 10 years

Systems like Kyoushin and Isshinryu clearly fall into the Modern Period
Systems like Shotokan, Shito-ryu, Goju ryu all fall into the Traditional Period
Systems of study like Hiagonna Kanryo's or Itosu's fall into the Classical Period.

While useful as a classification it is important to note each generation of instructor in each system will move the system to the needs of their students, the times and their own interests. There is no 'control to keep a system of study from changing. Also different dojo in the same system are likely divergent as well.

2. If you try and follow the Okinawan Rengokai of 50 years, all of those systems fall into that category. (sub note there is a Kyuoshin dojo on Okinawa) Okinawa of course likely follows standards that only considers those systems created on Okinawa. Isshinryu is a member of the Rengokai as a result of Uechi Sensei. Of course as Uechi ryu didn't move to Okinawa (from Japan) until 1948 it's somewhat on the cusp of time too. This is just an outsider's opinion, likely one not held on Okinawa.

3. David Lowry's definition. Traditional is whatever your instructor tells you is traditional. Of course this is most correct too, especially following the past where things were not documented. If you have an instructor you respect, whatever your are told must be correct for you.

4. Traditional is anything that has been around for a while.

Take your pick.

 

[Victor Smith]

Brandon,

Note it is on Okinawa Uechi Sensei is working to establish the presence of Isshinryu within the Rengokai as a member. Isshinryu exists in many forms and, likely as a totality, is larger than many other Okinawan systems. There is no way to fully establish the current size of Isshinryu.

Whether the Okinawan Rengokai's efforts to police what is a traditional Okinawan system succeeds is of little merit. I have a suspicion that the controling aspects of the Rengokai may not be the best answer for Okinawan karate in the long run. But I am not Okinawan, none of them are soliciting my opinion, nor am I soliciting theirs.

Isshinryu is and it is as valid as any other system. Especially when a vertical fist meets a jaw <GRIN>.

 

[K-man]

Of course as Uechi ryu didn't move to Okinawa (from Japan) until 1948 it's somewhat on the cusp of time too.

You might argue that Kanbon Uechi was an Okinawan, who went to China in 1897 to avoid conscription and studied martial arts until about 1907. He established a school in China but supposedly one of his students used what he had learned to kill a neighbour, and Uechi returned to Okinawa in 1910. He didn't go to Japan until 1925. Initially on return to Okinawa he gave up teaching but at some stage obviously resumed because he taught his son Kanei Uechi and Ryuyu Tomoyose to a high level of competency. Kanei Uechi continued to teach in Okinawa after his father went to Japan so was Pangainun-ryu Todi-jutsu really Okinawan before it went to Japan? Uechi Ryu didn't really move from Japan to Okinawa in 1948. Kanbon Uechi died in 1948 and his son in Okinawa took over as head and continued to develop the style. The name, Uechi Ryu came about in 1940 but the style dates from sometime between 1910 and 1925, although you might say it started in China in 1907. :asian:

 

[Victor Smith]

K-man,

You are very historically correct, I was shortening the story too much and regret any confusion, but it was only after the war the Ueichi became established on Okinawa.

Not to slight them, personally I consider Ueichi one of the most efficient Okinawan systems, especially the Okinawan seniors I've seen.

Makes the point descriptions of traditional are not terribly important. Power and effecient effective technique are more to the point.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Brandon,

Note it is on Okinawa Uechi Sensei is working to establish the presence of Isshinryu within the Rengokai as a member. Isshinryu exists in many forms and, likely as a totality, is larger than many other Okinawan systems. There is no way to fully establish the current size of Isshinryu.

Whether the Okinawan Rengokai's efforts to police what is a traditional Okinawan system succeeds is of little merit. I have a suspicion that the controling aspects of the Rengokai may not be the best answer for Okinawan karate in the long run. But I am not Okinawan, none of them are soliciting my opinion, nor am I soliciting theirs.

Isshinryu is and it is as valid as any other system. Especially when a vertical fist meets a jaw <GRIN>.

I agree 100% Isshinryu is incredibly large and almost everywhere if you look hard enough. In regards to its validity no doubt it is valid. A close friend of mine and now my kobudo sensei is a Isshinryu 6th Dan and she has shown my things that no one else ever had. While in Okinawa we obviously did a lot of Isshinryu since I was with her and someone who was a Isshinryu 4th dan asked me on the second day we were there "How long have you been training Isshinryu?" my response was last night was my first Isshinryu class. But I have a great deal and respect for the art and its history.