Training at the Source

[Dudi Nisan]

How important it is for the serious karate to train in Okinawa? How important it is to train there for an extended period?

What do you think guys?

Happy New Year!

 

[drop bear]

Honestly I think it would be really beneficial for a lot of martial arts and non martial arts reasons.

 

[Kickboxer101]

Not at all really to be honest as long as your own teacher knows what he's talking about

 

[KangTsai]

Depends on how good the teacher/s is/are. Who knows, your current teacher could be miles better, or behind. Your choice.

 

[drop bear]

Don't settle for mediocre. Make the bloody trip.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

How important it is for the serious karate to train in Okinawa? How important it is to train there for an extended period?

What do you think guys?

Happy New Year!

I lived in Okinawa for a year in 1982-83. Fun place. I was a US Marine, and was not training in MA at the time. I think Okinawa is worth a trip from the point of view of historical and cultural investigation.

As to martial arts training, I do not think it is necessary - as others said - assuming one's instruction is up to par.

If you go there to train, I think a lot depends on what it is you believe you need to accomplish there.

Are you going with a group, or by yourself? In either case, is it a planned trip, or are you just figuring to drop in and be made welcome?

"Extended period" makes me think of deshi-type training. I understand that such arrangements can be made. I'm not sure how useful it is, but every situation is different of course.

I would definitely recommend a short visit before making any kind of long term arrangements.

 

[Buka]

Depends on a lot of things. "Serious" for one. Serious how? More importantly, serious how long? If you're a serious student but have been training just a couple years, I think you're better off going to Disney on vacation. (not trying be a wise guys, here)

And where in Okinawa? Is it the dojo of your teacher's teacher, or one your organizations historic places? Will you be welcome with open arms? Staying long? Do you have arrangements and money?

If you want to go just for the heck of it, I say go for it and have a ball. Any other reason might take more looking into, and lots of planning.

 

[Paul_D]

How important it is for the serious karate to train in Okinawa? How important it is to train there for an extended period?

As important as it would be to go to France to learn ballet (I.e. Not at all).

 

[Dudi Nisan]

Honestly I think it would be really beneficial for a lot of martial arts and non martial arts reasons.

Maybe you can say more about those reasons?

If you go there to train, I think a lot depends on what it is you believe you need to accomplish there.

What can you accomplish in Okinawa that you cannot in the West?

Will you be welcome with open arms?

You mean that Okinawan masters do not usually accept students with open arms? Is it difficult to start training there?

 

[Buka]

Dudi, do you train now? Does your school have an association/relationship with a school in Okinawa?
Do you have a particular one in mind?

 

[drop bear]

Maybe you can say more about those reasons?



What can you accomplish in Okinawa that you cannot in the West?



You mean that Okinawan masters do not usually accept students with open arms? Is it difficult to start training there?

There is a difference between slugging your butt down to the local gym and making the commitment to training in the culture and country of your chosen style.

So you will train with better guys.
You will need to be in top form yourself.
You will have a legitimate goal to focus on.
You will get to see a new culture and country.
You will have done something pretty cool.
You will be training 24/7

Same reason people do thai camps in thailand.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Maybe you can say more about those reasons?

I can try. I will probably step on some toes, but I don't intend to.

Some people go to Okinawa so that they can 'pad their resume' and be able to claim they have trained with various [insert name] famous masters.
Some people go to Okinawa thinking they will be promoted.
Some people go to Okinawa for the history and the culture.
Some people go to Okinawa to earnestly train with masters of their particular style of Okinawan karate.
There are other reasons as well.

What can you accomplish in Okinawa that you cannot in the West?

It's a good question. I don't know the answer to that. For me, there is nothing in Okinawa that I do not have here in the USA, training right in the dojo I am fortunate enough to be training at. Perhaps for some styles, if their honbu is in Okinawa, training there at times is important or mandatory. I cannot speak for those people.

You mean that Okinawan masters do not usually accept students with open arms? Is it difficult to start training there?

I mean Okinawans are just like people everywhere. You cannot say they are all one way or all another way. They are individuals.

There are masters who are quite willing to accept visitors from outside Japan and Okinawa. Some because they have a strong desire to pass on their knowledge and wisdom. Some would like to be paid. I mean no disrespect to any who ask for payment in exchange for training, and I am not trying to infer that it is wrong to require payment for services; I am saying only that there are some few who are in it for the money, just as is the case everywhere. In other words, they live in a fairly poor part of the world. If foreigners want to show up unannounced, but bearing large bundles of cash, and they want a couple-hour seminar and a new promotion, who are they to argue?

I would also say that there is a common perception that quite often, foreign students (especially Americans) show up unannounced and expect doors to open for them. Why would they think this? They are not God's gift to Okinawa or Karate. Some visits are tours arranged well in advance, those are usually quite well received. Some are more private affairs of a few select students. Some are huge ensemble groups of various disciplines who get the meet-n-greet with various masters, pay their respects, do a little kata, and get a promotion.

Now these are all 'visits' I am referring to. In order to train for any length of time in Okinawa, you have to have permission to stay for that long. You'll need a pile of money, and you'll have to able to learn to get around, speak some Japanese (not much required), and be able to train in the jungle heat and humidity (many Okinawans see air conditioning as something to use in extreme heat, but very sparingly, not like Americans).

I guess my question to you is what do YOU expect to get out of a visit to Okinawa? What is it you think Okinawa can offer you that you cannot receive where you train now?

This is a pretty good guide:

The Ultimate Guide to Training Karate in Okinawa - The Birthplace of Karate

Frankly, I don't have any reason to train in Okinawa. It is where my style of karate began, but my Sensei trained under two of the best 'First Generation' American students of the Soke of our style, and the Soke has long passed away. There would be no one for me to visit in my own style of karate.

 

[Dudi Nisan]

Hi guys, thank you for your input!



Hi Bill, thanks for your detailed answer.



I began martial arts training with Shotokan.

However, since I came to Taiwan, 15 years ago, I have done only gongfu. Last year a publisher asked me to do research on the Chinese origins of the Bubishi, which I accepted, and then I saw this school:

Quite impressive, in my opinion. So, I started thinking about Okinawa.



When it comes to gongfu then (generally speaking) Chinese masters know much more then Western teachers. Even the average Chinese practitioner knows more about gongfu than foreign practitioners/teachers. And this “knowing” affects practice.



I thought the same would be true for Okinawan masters, that, generally speaking, they’d know much more about karate than Westerners, and that their knowledge would positively affect their practice.



This guy from Shorin ryu, for example, has very strong “spiritual” aura (if I am not imagining things), and this, I think, has to do with certain knowledge, knowledge which informs his practice.



What do you think?

 

[Dudi Nisan]

. "Serious" for one. Serious how?

I think this is a fundamental question!

I think that by "serious" I meant that martial arts is more than a hobby for you. It's not your job--you don't making a living out of it--but it is a high priority. And you really want to understand it; you want to go all the way, you are willing to go all the way. By that I mean that you learn not only the forms/kata and their applications, but everything else about you art--its history, the culture that gave birth to it and nourished it, the motivation of its creators, their ideals, their dreams, their struggles, everything.

I guess that is what I mean by "all the way"; that's what I mean by "serious".

What do you think guys?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

When it comes to gongfu then (generally speaking) Chinese masters know much more then Western teachers. Even the average Chinese practitioner knows more about gongfu than foreign practitioners/teachers. And this “knowing” affects practice.

I thought the same would be true for Okinawan masters, that, generally speaking, they’d know much more about karate than Westerners, and that their knowledge would positively affect their practice.

This guy from Shorin ryu, for example, has very strong “spiritual” aura (if I am not imagining things), and this, I think, has to do with certain knowledge, knowledge which informs his practice.

What do you think?

I think I cannot answer the question about whether or not Okinawan masters know more than American masters with regard to the various Okinawan styles of karate.

I think there are too many variables, too few hard-and-fast rules. Even if one says 'generally', one is likely to be wrong no matter what one says.

I will say this - it seems to me that the more generations one gets from the source of style in question, the more changes are introduced. Some intentionally, some without anyone actually trying to change anything. It just happens. It seems to be a natural occurrence. Students practicing a style that is ten generations away from the founder's original training will look visibly different as they practice than their predecessors did.

One could argue that American students (or any students outside of Okinawa) would be more likely to experience this shift, and would benefit from being exposed to a closer-to-the-original rendition of the art.

The question would be whether the Okinawan masters now teaching have also experienced this drift, and if so, how much compared to the foreign students?

I don't think it can be answered even in a general sense. It's strictly case-by-case, I think.

In my case (and speaking only for myself of course), there are no Okinawan masters in my style who are currently teaching and closer in terms of generation to the founder as my own instructor is. Pure luck on my part - I am learning from a man who learned from two masters who were the founder's original American students. My Sensei is well-known and well-regarded throughout the world in our particular style; he is respected. He has trained with other first-generation students of our art and they find no fault with his training. The organization I belong to has no Okinawan headquarters, our Honbu is in the USA.

For others, this may not be the case. Perhaps they train from a 10th or 15th generation student of their founder and there are masters to be found in Okinawa who teach something significantly different than they do, or are closer to the founder in terms of generations of instruction. I don't know. I don't know if such students would gain from being taught something radically different than what they are currently learning. Perhaps the changes are not radical, but subtle. Perhaps the training is the same, but there are insights to be gained that were not passed along on the foreign side. It's impossible to know.

I would love to go back to Okinawa for a visit. However, probably not for training. There is nothing there for me in that sense. And I am OK with that.

 

[Buka]

I think this is a fundamental question!

I think that by "serious" I meant that martial arts is more than a hobby for you. It's not your job--you don't making a living out of it--but it is a high priority. And you really want to understand it; you want to go all the way, you are willing to go all the way. By that I mean that you learn not only the forms/kata and their applications, but everything else about you art--its history, the culture that gave birth to it and nourished it, the motivation of its creators, their ideals, their dreams, their struggles, everything.

I guess that is what I mean by "all the way"; that's what I mean by "serious".

What do you think guys?

I think you would have a wonderful time in Okinawa. Go have fun, bro. Just make all arrangements first.

 

[Dudi Nisan]

I think there are too many variables, too few hard-and-fast rules. Even if one says 'generally', one is likely to be wrong no matter what one says.

Bill demands precision and I appreciate that! You are right. I should be more precise.

I will limit the discussion to my own experience. I trained with people who spent several years either in Japan or in Taiwan. They had good technical knowledge of their arts, but not much more than that. If I asked about the culture, the history, the meaning of this Eastern concept or that, they'd have very little to say.

Since then I have spoken to and interviewed masters from China, HK and Taiwan. I could ask them any question I wanted, and I could keep asking them, and they would simply keep answering me. They have such an amazing knowledge that talking to them is a humbling experience (and I've been studying and researching this field for 20 years).

And for an anecdote: after about 5 years of gongfu practice here( at that point I had already had a degree in East Asian studies, had 3 more years of intense language school and was doing my masters in Chinese history) there comes a new, young Taiwanese guy to our class. And he starts a conversation with my teacher, and I am just standing there, listening, and I realize that there are so many things that I still don't know, but which that young guy, who did not even train with us, already knows.

I encountered similar situations many times. that is what I meant when I said that even the average person knows more.

I think you would have a wonderful time in Okinawa. Go have fun, bro. Just make all arrangements first.

Thanks man! It's very kind of you!

 

[Buka]

And take pictures, Dudi, lots of pictures.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Bill demands precision and I appreciate that! You are right. I should be more precise.

I will limit the discussion to my own experience. I trained with people who spent several years either in Japan or in Taiwan. They had good technical knowledge of their arts, but not much more than that. If I asked about the culture, the history, the meaning of this Eastern concept or that, they'd have very little to say.

Since then I have spoken to and interviewed masters from China, HK and Taiwan. I could ask them any question I wanted, and I could keep asking them, and they would simply keep answering me. They have such an amazing knowledge that talking to them is a humbling experience (and I've been studying and researching this field for 20 years).

And for an anecdote: after about 5 years of gongfu practice here( at that point I had already had a degree in East Asian studies, had 3 more years of intense language school and was doing my masters in Chinese history) there comes a new, young Taiwanese guy to our class. And he starts a conversation with my teacher, and I am just standing there, listening, and I realize that there are so many things that I still don't know, but which that young guy, who did not even train with us, already knows.

I encountered similar situations many times. that is what I meant when I said that even the average person knows more.



Thanks man! It's very kind of you!

I suppose a lot comes down to your purpose in studying a given martial art. If you are doing it for insight into the culture and philosophies of a particular country, then an instructor who is a native of that country will probably have more to offer you. If you are doing it for the sake of the martial skills and knowledge embodied in that art, then there may not be a difference.

I would be cautious about uncritically accepting the history related by an instructor, even if they are a native of the country in question. Most martial artists are not historians. It is very common for martial arts instructors to relate detailed histories of their art which are heaping piles of donkey dung even if (sometimes especially if) they are natives of the country where the art originated.

I don't know much about the state of CMA instruction in one country vs another. I do know that for many arts from around the globe some of the best instructors are now located in the U.S., just because those practitioners moved here for better economic prospects than they had back home.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I suppose a lot comes down to your purpose in studying a given martial art. If you are doing it for insight into the culture and philosophies of a particular country, then an instructor who is a native of that country will probably have more to offer you. If you are doing it for the sake of the martial skills and knowledge embodied in that art, then there may not be a difference.

I would be cautious about uncritically accepting the history related by an instructor, even if they are a native of the country in question. Most martial artists are not historians. It is very common for martial arts instructors to relate detailed histories of their art which are heaping piles of donkey dung even if (sometimes especially if) they are natives of the country where the art originated.

I don't know much about the state of CMA instruction in one country vs another. I do know that for many arts from around the globe some of the best instructors are now located in the U.S., just because those practitioners moved here for better economic prospects than they had back home.

And with those arts that have created generations of instructors in the US, some of the best instructors may well have developed here, too. There's nothing magical about countries of origin. In some arts (I'd suspect BJJ is one), there's a strong influence of the founder(s) still to be found at the country of origin. In other arts (like NGA), there's actually less to be found in the source country.