Training Against The Blade

[Knarfan]

Yes! For every attack there are several counters. For every counter there are several re-counters and for every re-counters there again are counters and so on.

Most all the arts I have seen or been involved with have many disarms. The problem I see with most of them is the manner the disarms are attempted and when they are attempted. In Pekiti disarms are performed as a function of attacking. Of course one can only disarm but it is something we strongly discourage because as Sayoc FF was referring to; the counters are more effective than just disarming. When performed with-in the function of attacking the disarms happen due to proper positioning and attacking. Something I stress and all my Pekiti instructors have stressed is to never attempt a disarm or a joint lock if the hand/arm or the head is still working properly. What makes all the disarming work is to damage the weapon hand/arm and/or the head “First” then with proper positioning as you follow-up the initial attack or counter with a hit the disarm is there. Disrupt the intelligence, damage the weapons capability, destroy the weapons system. Hit the head, hit the weapon arm, take out the body. Is it possible to simply disarm another? Yes. Can that be effective? Yes but, what is the higher percentage move? What will be most effective more often? When in a fight with or without weapons there are no absolutes and what works well once may never work again.

As to being prepared to be cut if defending against a blade. I feel this is a major part of the problem. If you are defending against the blade then you are fighting the blade and will probably lose or get hurt badly. Don't fight the blade, damage and control what is wielding the blade, damage and take out the head and body.

Danny

Dan,
I think that your grasp on reality & your priorities with respect to controlling a very diffacult & dangerous life threatening situation is incredibly accurate. What you say about preparing to be cut if defending against a blade is so true, it can't be looked at as "self defense against the blade" you need to do more like you stated, because if you just fixate on the blade you will lose. This is one thing that I think is very difficult to get across to people, IMO, people really have to learn how to break out of this "self defense mind set". You have done an excellent job of really explaining this concept & you put alot of things in perspective. Also, I like what you say about there being "no absolutes", what works once may never work again. You sound like somone that has been there & done that.... excellent post!

 

[Paul Genge]

One interesting point that needs to be made is that very few of us will face a knife and even fewer will face a knife attacker who is trained to use the weapon with the skill that some schools teach.

Knife disarms are for life and death situations. They are not a matter of choice. Also the attacker is umlikely to be skilled and therefore may have a greater chance of being effective than our classes would suggest.

Paul Genge

 

[Knarfan]

One interesting point that needs to be made is that very few of us will face a knife and even fewer will face a knife attacker who is trained to use the weapon with the skill that some schools teach.

Knife disarms are for life and death situations. They are not a matter of choice. Also the attacker is umlikely to be skilled and therefore may have a greater chance of being effective than our classes would suggest.

Paul Genge

One misconception that shouldn't be overlooked is the fact that a person who is attacking you with a knife has to be skilled in order to be effective or a dangerous threat. The intent ,aggression ,element of suprise & physical advantages that the attacker may poses, are going to have much more to do with your chances for survival not his skill level. When somone swinging a blade at you, theres a good chance that you are going to be seriously injured, it has very little to do with skill. Of course skill level of the attacker is only going to make it worse but, they don't have to be skilled to be deadly. I do agree though, the chances of being attacked under normal circumstances is slim.

 

[MJS]

One interesting point that needs to be made is that very few of us will face a knife and even fewer will face a knife attacker who is trained to use the weapon with the skill that some schools teach.

I would think that someone working in a prison would face a much better chance of facing an edged weapon. You do bring up some good points though when you mentioned the skill level of your attacker. In this thread:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28964

I talk about the same thing that you just mentioned regarding skill levels.

Mike

 

[Bigshadow]

In our training we train to take out the delivery system of the knife not the weapon itself. This can be seen as the spine of the attacker and on other levels it can be the mind. With that being said, the blade (no matter the type) is not a real issue, by taking out the delivery system (humans being very similar) the principles remain the same.

Just my thoughts on training against a blade.

 

[BallistikMike]

Knife fighting is very simple and very easy.

Put the knife in your hand.

Put it into the "Bad guy".

Great targets would be the liver, the throat, femoral artery, the brachial artery and the hand.

Forget anything you have ever been taught about fencing. You will never face an opponent and fence knife to knife.

A knife is meant to be felt and never seen.

The stick should stay a stick and the sword should stay a sword. Trying to convert those training regimes to knife use is faulty.

"Machine gun" stabbing. Try a hand cut or a disarm on that. You will fail every time. That is exactly what is seen on the streets and in the prison yard. Rapid fire thrusting, rapid fire slashing.

Expect to be cut, yep. Expect to slip on your own blood, possible. Expect to become weak and winded because of the cut, yep. Understand that a cut can cripple you for life, yep.

Create space, create shields, destroy vital targets and obtain a distance weapon (Pool cue, bar stool, garbage can, car door).

Good luck everyone.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I've never been a in a knife fight. I've seen a couple, heard about a few, but i've never been in one (and hope to never be). I practice different things in relation to knife fighting, and I spar. But, that having been said, the only way to really learn how to knife fight is to actually do it. And that's dangerous. People get hurt, and many of them die.

The difference in advantage between a trained knife fighter and an untrained knife fighter is far less than between a trained gun fighter and an untrained gun fighter. Meaning, you can be good, and still get cut really bad. Knife fighting seems to be a risky occupation. That having been said, it's better to know something, than know nothing.

 

[jdinca]

We have a number of techniques that are designed to defend against a knife attack. None of them up to my level (brown) involve removing the knife from the attackers hand. They involve controlling/deflecting the arm while trying to incapacitate the guy with the knife. The first thought is to avoid the confrontation if at all possible. Disarm techniques are taught at the BB level.

We did some "sparring" in our instructors class with red Sharpies while wearing white t-shirts. Very eye opening and informative.

 

[MJS]

I too, have never been in a knife fight, and hope that I never am. I do agree that control is key. Techniques, both empty hand and against weapons, should IMO be used as a foundation to build your defense off of. Probably won't be able to pull off a full tech. but instead use ideas from them.

Mike

 

[ChineseKempoJerry]

My two cents worth.

We teach knife disarms in our curriculum. We practice a lot. We do a lot of seminars. I am Filipino and so is my instructor. We learn and practice because of our heritage.

I was asked to teach a self protection seminar to a LEO group. Here is what I say. Somone has a kinfe, get your gun. No gun, get your baton. No baton, run. No choice, control the weapon, close the gap (this is happening simultaneously), take down your assailant, pray you are alive.

Food for thought. Go full speed keeping this in mind and let me know what you think. It has worked for me!

Good luck and remember, to survive is why we study.

Best Regards,

Jerry

 

[James Kovacich]

We train extensively with the blade. Training with the blade super charges our empty hands because the blade is so dangerous (it can kill you just by grazing you) that our reflexes, body mechanics and awareness become very sharp (no pun intended ).

Basically, anything you can do blade vs. blade can be done empty hand vs. blade with slight adjustments made to account for your lack of a weapon.

Vic www.combatartsusa.com

I agree. A lot of Inayan Serrada "translates" to Inayan Kadena De Mano. Simplicity is key. Just about any Serrada technique is duplicated from stick, sword, knife and empty hand with minor adjustments.

 

[James Kovacich]

I too, have never been in a knife fight, and hope that I never am. I do agree that control is key. Techniques, both empty hand and against weapons, should IMO be used as a foundation to build your defense off of. Probably won't be able to pull off a full tech. but instead use ideas from them.

Mike

You got it my friend. Thats what techniques really are about. Once you "dissolve" the technique, you use it as needed.

I hope I never need my M1 Lightfoot but in a "real" situation it is close enough to what I practice with and an all around great "legal" knife. And one the best things about it is that only the clip is exposed out of your pocket. Your attacker is likely to not even know you have it and if you need it, it's there.

Although I did notice when I was Europe, the pick-pockets that I've heard so much about stayed away from me.