Training 2 different styles

[Gerry Seymour]

One time a guy used pull guard on me. I dropped my elbow right on his throat. He was very mad and asked me why did I do that for. I told him that in Chinese wrestling, to use pull guard is a no no. In the old time, by using pull guard in a Chinese wrestling field would cause "fist fight" after the sport.

Different rule sets for different sports can cause problem. It's better to understand the difference before the match starts.

That's not about rule sets, John. That's about etiquette, and cultural reactions to breaches thereof.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So a sports analogy - I decide to take up basketball and soccer at the same time. If I spend all 6 hours practicing basketball, I’ll be far better at basketball in a year than if I only spent 3 hours a week.

I think the analogy is clearer if we change the language slightly. If I train basketball or soccer for those 6 hours, am I a better athlete than if I train both for 3 hours each? I think the answer to that is less clear. I am unlikely to be as skilled at either as if I had trained it, alone, but I may (or may not) be a better athlete, all-around.

 

[Flying Crane]

i dont think those are the only two options available.

I agree, but I believe it is a pretty accurate assessment for the most part.

 

[drop bear]

I’m not arguing brain n elasticity at all; I don’t think any reasonable person will have any major issues learned multiple systems simultaneously. As I said in an earlier post, it depends on how much time they have to train and how good they want to get at a particular system. Let’s say I can train Monday Wednesday and Friday nights. If I do karate Monday, Judo Wednesday, and boxing Friday, how good will I be at any individual one of those in a year? If I want to get really good at karate, I’d probably be best off training that the 3 nights every week instead of one night a week.

If I’m looking to be the most complete fighter I can be in a year and or complete in MMA in a year, I’d probably be best off doing all 3 simultaneously. I’d most likely benefit from someone who knows how to tie all of those together too.

As for the 2 different teachers, it’s not two entirely different takes on the same system. It’s different ways of communicating the same thing. You and I can both teach Newton’s laws of motion, but we may explain it a bit differently. If we shared a student, some things you might say might click better than some things I’d say and vice versa. My CI and the 2nd in charge are on the same page, but their language during feedback can be different. My CI is more of a big picture and hands off and let me work it out the minor details for myself kind of guy, whereas the other one explains the details more thoroughly and fine tuning kind of guy. I’d be very happy with either one of them as my only teacher, but I’m better off with both of them. Nothing either one has said has ever conflicted with what the other said.

See for me èach practitioner has a subtly different take on their martial arts. Their own innovation. and of course they conflict.

It is what makes a style more robust.

Otherwise all you learn is to defeat your own system. Kind of the wing chun problem.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That's not about rule sets, John. That's about etiquette, and cultural reactions to breaches thereof.

In BJJ. both pull guard and jump guard are legal. In Chinese wrestling, since when you use either pull guard or jump guard, your body will touch on the ground first. You already lose that round and that round is over.

Most wrestler will have disadvantage when compete in Chinese wrestling. When a wrestler uses "single leg", one of his knee is touching the ground already. This is OK by Chinese wrestling rule set. But if you can apply a bit of pressure to force one of his arm, or both knees to touch the ground, he will lose that round because he has 2 points touching the ground besides his feet.

The difference of the "sport" rule set make a difference in how you may train.

 

[drop bear]

In BJJ. both pull guard and jump guard are legal. In Chinese wrestling, since when you use either pull guard or jump guard, your body will touch on the ground first. You already lose that round and that round is over.

Most wrestler will have disadvantage when compete in Chinese wrestling. When a wrestler uses "single leg", one of his knee is touching the ground already. This is OK by Chinese wrestling rule set. But if you can apply a bit of pressure to force one of his arm, or both knees to touch the ground, he will lose that round because he has 2 points touching the ground besides his feet.

The difference of the "sport" rule set make a difference in how you may train.

Hence why you train multiple styles so that should someone come up with a rule like that you can adapt.

 

[hoshin1600]

I agree, but I believe it is a pretty accurate assessment for the most part.

I believe every opinion that people have posted on this thread is valid. But that opinion is really only true for themselves. Everyone is different with different goals and different capabilities. For every person like you or Bill who love their chosen art and see benefit in focusing on the one style there are others who benefit from multiple styles. There are many people who can and do study more than one style AND are extremely good at them, in fact better than a large percentage of practioners. To deny that these people don't exist is nonsense. To hold the opinion that mastery can only happen in a single style is a denial that they exist. In fact historically it is blatantly false. Tatsuo Shimabuku trained in 2 styles and I'm sure some ancestors of your style did so as well.

 

[Flying Crane]

I believe every opinion that people have posted on this thread is valid. But that opinion is really only true for themselves. Everyone is different with different goals and different capabilities. For every person like you or Bill who love their chosen art and see benefit in focusing on the one style there are others who benefit from multiple styles. There are many people who can and do study more than one style AND are extremely good at them, in fact better than a large percentage of practioners. To deny that these people don't exist is nonsense. To hold the opinion that mastery can only happen in a single style is a denial that they exist. In fact historically it is blatantly false. Tatsuo Shimabuku trained in 2 styles and I'm sure some ancestors of your style did so as well.

There are always exceptions. Most people are not the exception.

That is my opinion, based on my own standards.

I disagree that a better than large percentage of people are good at multiple styles. From what I have seen, a better than large percentage are not very good at one style.

I stand by my earlier assessment: training in multiple styles can be beneficial, or it can be a disaster, or anywhere in between. It depends on a lot of things. It is up to the individual to decide for themselves if the potential benefits outweigh the potential pitfalls.

For most people, on average, I don’t recommend it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So a sports analogy - I decide to take up basketball and soccer at the same time. If I spend all 6 hours practicing basketball, I’ll be far better at basketball in a year than if I only spent 3 hours a week.

The foundation that you have developed in basketball may not apply to soccer. If we use the math major analogy, After you have learned probability, you may want to lean statistics, non-parameter statistic, ... The foundation that you have built on the probability can still be applied in statistics, non-parameter statistic, ...

All the students in Central Guoshu Institute (中央國術館) in China all had to learn:

- Long Fist.
- Baji,
- Taiji,
- XingYi,
- Shuai-Chiao,
- boxing,
- ...

Back in 1928 - 1936 in China, the "cross training" was a must.

Central Guoshu Institute - Wikipedia

 

[hoshin1600]

I disagree that a better than large percentage of people are good at multiple styles. From what I have seen, a better than large percentage are not very good at one style.

Maybe I wrote that poorly. That is not what I meant.
What I meant was that it is possible for an individual to study more than one art and be better than most at those styles.
I think if we really got into specifics we would agree more than disagree on this.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

You guys are funny.

 

[Brian King]

Greetings!

A year ago i started off with Muay Thai up until May,then me and a couple of friends decided to start training Shotokan Karate and in doing so i stopped going to MT. Recently i started missing MT and wish to start training again,but i want to train Karate as well, and i'm thinking of going with both of them. And here is the question,since these 2 are completely different styles and i wanted to ask if i train both will i have any troubles with executing the moves or training, etc... ?

You stated that you "started missing MT" (snip) then asked if you will have any troubles training both styles setting up an either or question/answer. Answer A- no, go ahead and train both, Answer B - Yes, you will have trouble training both, so pick an art and stick to it.

Might there also be an answer C? What do you feel you are missing from the MT training? Is there a way of satisfying that missing whatever in within the other art or some other area of your life and relationships?

Good luck with your quandary and search
Regards
Brian King

 

[JR 137]

See for me èach practitioner has a subtly different take on their martial arts. Their own innovation. and of course they conflict.

It is what makes a style more robust.

Otherwise all you learn is to defeat your own system. Kind of the wing chun problem.

I see what you’re say now. By conflict, I thought you meant opposing views that’ll mess up the students.

 

[Danny T]

Mark Lynn

Curious as to what you dislike:
The fact that “Some do train more for the art” and that “Being able to fight is a side bar” for them.
or
The fact that “For others fighting is what it is all about.“
or
That there are “Different stokes for different folks.”

Thank you for your time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In BJJ. both pull guard and jump guard are legal. In Chinese wrestling, since when you use either pull guard or jump guard, your body will touch on the ground first. You already lose that round and that round is over.

Most wrestler will have disadvantage when compete in Chinese wrestling. When a wrestler uses "single leg", one of his knee is touching the ground already. This is OK by Chinese wrestling rule set. But if you can apply a bit of pressure to force one of his arm, or both knees to touch the ground, he will lose that round because he has 2 points touching the ground besides his feet.

The difference of the "sport" rule set make a difference in how you may train.

That is a difference of rule sets. The prior post was not.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There are always exceptions. Most people are not the exception.

That is my opinion, based on my own standards.

I disagree that a better than large percentage of people are good at multiple styles. From what I have seen, a better than large percentage are not very good at one style.

I stand by my earlier assessment: training in multiple styles can be beneficial, or it can be a disaster, or anywhere in between. It depends on a lot of things. It is up to the individual to decide for themselves if the potential benefits outweigh the potential pitfalls.

For most people, on average, I don’t recommend it.

I think partly the difference might be how we define “good at a style”. I know some folks who can’t navigate the curriculum of each art, but are quite good at the parts that focus on, and put those together into a cohesive personal approach. I also know folks who are excellent at the curriculum of one art, and some (not all) are good at executing outside the context of that art. Which ones are good?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I think partly the difference might be how we define “good at a style”. I know some folks who can’t navigate the curriculum of each art, but are quite good at the parts that focus on, and put those together into a cohesive personal approach. I also know folks who are excellent at the curriculum of one art, and some (not all) are good at executing outside the context of that art. Which ones are good?

Simple. Everybody sucks. There are no masters. Keep training. Eventually you die. That's all there is. Nobody has enough time in one life to master even one martial art. Multiple arts mean less mastery of each.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Simple. Everybody sucks. There are no masters. Keep training. Eventually you die. That's all there is. Nobody has enough time in one life to master even one martial art. Multiple arts mean less mastery of each.

Every time you state this I wonder...do you think founders have mastered their art?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Nobody has enough time in one life to master even one martial art.

The Shuai-Chiao system has over 60 different categories of throws, a total over 300 different throws. For example, just the "foot sweep" categories, there are more than 30 different ways to do "foot sweep". Was there any person on earth who could master all those 300 throws? I don't think so.

You may want to

- publish a book with 300 throws.
- put up a DVD with 150 throws.
- give a workshop with 50 throws.
- give public demo with 30 throws.
- wrestle on the mat with 15 throws.
- fight on the street for 5 throws.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

do you think founders have mastered their art?

One Shuai-Chiao teacher said, "If you have learned throw A and throw B from me, you can leave, and find yourself another teacher. I may know a lot of MA material, but I'm only good at throw A and throw B. Any other MA teacher can also teach you the other MA material as good as I can teach you". I like that teacher's "honest attitude".

When my teacher was young, he wanted to learn an old master's "door guarding skill". That old master didn't want to teach him. My teacher kicked on that old master's front door, cursed all his family members. The old master came out, used his "door guarding skill" to beat my teacher up. My teacher ran away and said, "Thanks for the lesson." Did my teacher want to learn the entire MA system from that old master? My teacher just wanted to learn the old master's famous "door guarding skill".