Traditional Vs Sport Judo
- Thread starter jeffbeish
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jeffbeish
Blue Belt
Guess I mispelled it. Yeah I remember tachikawa. They had the best NCO club in the world! Two floors if I remember correctly.
A freind, Roby Reed, was stationed there and was one grat Judp player. We used to play hard Judo in the day time and drink hard at night!
The joits in town were great!
My son is a US NAval Officer at Atsugi NAF right below Tokyo. I told him to go uo to YAKODA to the PX.
A freind, Roby Reed, was stationed there and was one grat Judp player. We used to play hard Judo in the day time and drink hard at night!
The joits in town were great!
My son is a US NAval Officer at Atsugi NAF right below Tokyo. I told him to go uo to YAKODA to the PX.
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GouRonin
Guest
Saturday classes that start at 11:00am
(519)871-3503
Right now they are based in a community center.
(519)871-3503
Right now they are based in a community center.
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Graham674
Guest
I'll maybe see you there some Saturday.
JG
JG
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jeffbeish
Blue Belt
JG, the Kodokan offered promotion testing several times per week, I think, and if there were enough Judoka of your rank in line you could fight until they carried you off. The first time I was there I was particularly feisty and began shiai against some ikkyu and defeated five of them, one right after the other. Twisted something and stopped. Then some of us Judo guys returned to Japan on leave and I finished my last fight in the time limit. Hey, I was only 20 years old and as fast as lightening. Had just won all Air Force 140 pound class and physically and mentally ready for most anything. 
Remember that your true technical ability comes out when you have become exhausted. That is why we always (used to) have heavy in-place workout, stretching and all that, then a lot of uchikomi type training before randori. Some sensei reverses that and does form training after hard randori – anything to make one exhausted so they only learn technique instead of strength Judo.
At least once a week my students would do Sumo before anything was taught to them. The kids loved that. It was like kohoku-shiai because as soon as one was pushed or thrown out of our ring another would jump in. Everyone got in on the act and a lot of sweating came about because of it.
Some of the nage no kata is hard to do in randori -- in the demo mode. Ukiwaza is a difficult throw against experienced Judoka. Like Ogoshi! Who would try it against oneÂ’s peer? Ukigoshi is another story, but has to be modified from the kata way. The testing is probably similar to the old days, except for the time limit. Politics? Is there Judo politics? :soapbox:
Ju no Kata is difficult at first. I looked like a duck trying to ride a unicycle! Maria Wick would come by ever so often, her daughter was an Olympic swimmer who training in Ft. Lauderdale, and in a couple years she managed to get me though it somehow. After I got the hang of it my regular Judo level increased and I was able to really bring uki into kozushi much easier. (If I misspell some of this, sorry, itÂ’s been a while). Even nage no kata can be a workout. Of course, they have changed some of it, but I remember it was very formal and every little movement or step would be scrutinized closely. When a mishap occurred then sensei would rap the hell out of that part that was out of place.
Kata died out about 1960. Men especially hate it, but I tell you this – a guy who practices the kata enough, it pays off on the mat in randori. There is a thing called randori no kata you know?
Remember that your true technical ability comes out when you have become exhausted. That is why we always (used to) have heavy in-place workout, stretching and all that, then a lot of uchikomi type training before randori. Some sensei reverses that and does form training after hard randori – anything to make one exhausted so they only learn technique instead of strength Judo.
At least once a week my students would do Sumo before anything was taught to them. The kids loved that. It was like kohoku-shiai because as soon as one was pushed or thrown out of our ring another would jump in. Everyone got in on the act and a lot of sweating came about because of it.
Some of the nage no kata is hard to do in randori -- in the demo mode. Ukiwaza is a difficult throw against experienced Judoka. Like Ogoshi! Who would try it against oneÂ’s peer? Ukigoshi is another story, but has to be modified from the kata way. The testing is probably similar to the old days, except for the time limit. Politics? Is there Judo politics?
:soapbox: Ju no Kata is difficult at first. I looked like a duck trying to ride a unicycle! Maria Wick would come by ever so often, her daughter was an Olympic swimmer who training in Ft. Lauderdale, and in a couple years she managed to get me though it somehow. After I got the hang of it my regular Judo level increased and I was able to really bring uki into kozushi much easier. (If I misspell some of this, sorry, itÂ’s been a while). Even nage no kata can be a workout. Of course, they have changed some of it, but I remember it was very formal and every little movement or step would be scrutinized closely. When a mishap occurred then sensei would rap the hell out of that part that was out of place.
Kata died out about 1960. Men especially hate it, but I tell you this – a guy who practices the kata enough, it pays off on the mat in randori. There is a thing called randori no kata you know?
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Graham674
Guest
Jeff, quite the story. Like I said above, I can't quite imagine doing 6 hard and fast randori sessions on top of all the other requirements.
I agree with what you say about exhaustion. The instructor who does our core training is a chip off that same block. We're pretty much a recreational club - lots of young undergraduates trying the sport out for 3 months then moving on to something else - but he came from one of the national level competitive clubs. Took him a while to bring the warm-ups down to a level that didn't scare off the kids. Tachi-waza randori still comes at the end of class, usually the last half hour of a two-hour session. What amazes me is the guys who still have muscle left at the end of it. Some of those fights look more like two drunk guys holding each other up!
We really don't do a lot of kata, but I think it's the only way to train good, clean technique. Considering how the interest is dying, I don't imagine it's held to the same scrutiny any more. Well, at least not by the younger dans.
Do you ever think about teaching again? Our head instructor is as old as or older than you, and he still takes his lumps with the best of them. Just a thought.
Like I said above, I can't quite imagine doing 6 hard and fast randori sessions on top of all the other requirements. I agree with what you say about exhaustion. The instructor who does our core training is a chip off that same block. We're pretty much a recreational club - lots of young undergraduates trying the sport out for 3 months then moving on to something else - but he came from one of the national level competitive clubs. Took him a while to bring the warm-ups down to a level that didn't scare off the kids. Tachi-waza randori still comes at the end of class, usually the last half hour of a two-hour session. What amazes me is the guys who still have muscle left at the end of it. Some of those fights look more like two drunk guys holding each other up!
We really don't do a lot of kata, but I think it's the only way to train good, clean technique. Considering how the interest is dying, I don't imagine it's held to the same scrutiny any more. Well, at least not by the younger dans.
Do you ever think about teaching again? Our head instructor is as old as or older than you, and he still takes his lumps with the best of them.
Just a thought.
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jeffbeish
Blue Belt
Gout is a secular or colloquial term for Gouty Arthritis and is said to be caused by too much uric acid. While I have not had too many wonderful occasions with it, the time it hit me gave me the worst pain ever. Real pain, like being hit with an ax in a bullet wound. It will come on sometimes by hitting something, like someone’s foot! No, it just ain’t worth it. I am satisfied being an “armchair Judoka.” :samurai:
Oh well, clouds rolled in too fats and that was then end of observing this evening.
Maybe you will get a chance to read that article on Randori no Kata. It is converted into HTML format and zipped into a file. Dreager was a master kata man and was an all around good Judoka. He, like many of us, believed in kata as an important training aid. In fact he points out the Kano thought of uchikomi as “kata.” If you are not a competitor then recreational Judo is the best activity to learn kata. However, it takes a sensei who well versed in the techniques. Even if he isn’t much good at it any kata training may help. :cheers:
Atemi waza, or art of striking is also good training. :hammer: Judo atemi is not as effective as some forms of karate, but if one would like to learn some self-defense it works very well. After all, real karate person usually doesn’t attack one on the street – they know better. Hey, do you know why karate guys break boards? So, when a tree attacked them they will be ready for it.
:samurai:Oh well, clouds rolled in too fats and that was then end of observing this evening.
Maybe you will get a chance to read that article on Randori no Kata. It is converted into HTML format and zipped into a file. Dreager was a master kata man and was an all around good Judoka. He, like many of us, believed in kata as an important training aid. In fact he points out the Kano thought of uchikomi as “kata.” If you are not a competitor then recreational Judo is the best activity to learn kata. However, it takes a sensei who well versed in the techniques. Even if he isn’t much good at it any kata training may help. :cheers:
Atemi waza, or art of striking is also good training. :hammer: Judo atemi is not as effective as some forms of karate, but if one would like to learn some self-defense it works very well. After all, real karate person usually doesn’t attack one on the street – they know better. Hey, do you know why karate guys break boards? So, when a tree attacked them they will be ready for it.
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GouRonin
Guest
I think that is my frustration in Judo mostly. We do a lot of randori but not a lot of actual work on the material for our belts.
I need to find some old Judoka willing to work through the material with me. I have tons of practice time in randori, I need the material time.
That's what is frustrating me and I just realized it. In Kenpo we have specific material to work through and this is what is throwing me...so to speak.
I need to find some old Judoka willing to work through the material with me. I have tons of practice time in randori, I need the material time.
That's what is frustrating me and I just realized it. In Kenpo we have specific material to work through and this is what is throwing me...so to speak.
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jeffbeish
Blue Belt
I uploaded a zipped file of the entire article by Donn Dreager on Randori no Kata for anyone interested. It is located in Mars-ALPO yahoo eGroup list file box and you may have to join for enough time to retrieve the file.
The file is randori.zip at URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Mars-ALPO/files/
The file is randori.zip at URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Mars-ALPO/files/
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Graham674
Guest
Gou, I feel your pain! The curriculum in judo is 100% consistent, so you should know what you need to learn, but getting your instructor to focus on it can be a different question.
It used to be that our beginners (up to yellow belt) got taught exactly what they needed so they could test at the 3-month mark. It helps that we only start beginners twice a year. But after that they were thrown back on their own resources. Intermediate classes were pretty much a mishmash of whatever the instructor felt like teaching that day. Things are getting better now that we have a senior instructor trying to enforce some structure on the instruction. However, we still don't have set times for grading, so it's up to the individual to decide to start preparing him or her self.
I think it's a problem with small clubs trying to satisfy a wide range of levels. It's as much a waste of time trying to teach yellow belts blue belt throws as it is teaching blue belts yellow belt throws. But if you have only one instructor and 2 students at each level, that's what winds up happening.
Two pieces of advice. One, tell your instructor you want to test so he can tailor his instruction accordingly. Two, get a partner who's interested in getting promoted as well, and work the curriculum together whenever you can. You'll be ready sooner than you might think - I imagine you have the basics pretty much down by now and you just want to polish a bit, eh?
JG
It used to be that our beginners (up to yellow belt) got taught exactly what they needed so they could test at the 3-month mark. It helps that we only start beginners twice a year. But after that they were thrown back on their own resources. Intermediate classes were pretty much a mishmash of whatever the instructor felt like teaching that day. Things are getting better now that we have a senior instructor trying to enforce some structure on the instruction. However, we still don't have set times for grading, so it's up to the individual to decide to start preparing him or her self.
I think it's a problem with small clubs trying to satisfy a wide range of levels. It's as much a waste of time trying to teach yellow belts blue belt throws as it is teaching blue belts yellow belt throws. But if you have only one instructor and 2 students at each level, that's what winds up happening.
Two pieces of advice. One, tell your instructor you want to test so he can tailor his instruction accordingly. Two, get a partner who's interested in getting promoted as well, and work the curriculum together whenever you can. You'll be ready sooner than you might think - I imagine you have the basics pretty much down by now and you just want to polish a bit, eh?
JG
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Graham674
Guest
Jeff, thanks for putting the Draeger article up. I haven't had a chance to read it through yet, but I downloaded it for later perusal. I've read a couple of his books, and they usually repay the effort.
I have never seen anyone practice atemi in judo! Again, I think it's the emphasis on the competition side of the art, rather than self-defence. It's funny, because for a long time judo was regarded as being too sport-oriented to be a real self defence art. But that attitude seems to have changed, mostly because judo players are known as being tough and aggressive(!) and know how to control a fight. And yet I'd be surprised to hear that anyone actually trains the classical SD techniques. Proabably it's regarded as too static and artificial. However, a reasonable number of judoka do cross-train in striking arts to get the 'full picture'. How was it back in the sixties and seventies? Did AF guys consider judo to be serious self defence?
I understand not wanting to get back on the mats with all the little problems that have built up over the years. I don' think you have to apologise for being lazy - sounds like you packed a pretty full career into about 30 years!
JG
I have never seen anyone practice atemi in judo! Again, I think it's the emphasis on the competition side of the art, rather than self-defence. It's funny, because for a long time judo was regarded as being too sport-oriented to be a real self defence art. But that attitude seems to have changed, mostly because judo players are known as being tough and aggressive(!) and know how to control a fight. And yet I'd be surprised to hear that anyone actually trains the classical SD techniques. Proabably it's regarded as too static and artificial. However, a reasonable number of judoka do cross-train in striking arts to get the 'full picture'. How was it back in the sixties and seventies? Did AF guys consider judo to be serious self defence?
I understand not wanting to get back on the mats with all the little problems that have built up over the years. I don' think you have to apologise for being lazy - sounds like you packed a pretty full career into about 30 years!
JG
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jeffbeish
Blue Belt
Hope everyone can download the article and enjoy it. :asian:
Hey, I haven’t seen it in 40 years either! It just never caught on here in the States. The Air Force allowed me the time and paid for my training in the combative measures class at the Kodokan -- near the very end of the program in 1961. That was the last time I actually trained in it or saw it again. At a couple AF tournaments the higher dans would perform some of those kata during opening ceremonies, but that was the last I saw any “jujitsu” type stuff at Judo events. However, over the years most of the Judoka I knew practiced something other than Judo and distinguishes Judo players from most everyone else in Martial Arts. Akijitsu, karate, Aikido and so on.
It was partly us old guys' fault for this mess; we just didnÂ’t follow traditions well. From the time I returned to the States until 1980 I must have had 3,000 or more students at one time or the other, but let a lot of tradition slip.
During the 1960Â’s a lot of my friends did practice Judo as self-defense. At Bergstrom AFB, in Austin, Texas we trained the Austin Police in our Judo club and additional class in hand-to-hand stuff. Your remember the idiot who shot all those people from the top of the Texas Tower? One of the cops who got killed trying to get to him was in our class at Bergstrom. CanÂ’t remember his name and my old friend and I were just talking about him last month. The age thing!
Yes, we were serious about self-defense aspect of Judo then, but in the 1970Â’s things changed.
I would love to teach again, but too many years away from would hamper my abilities to translate Judo to others. Besides, I live in a small town in central Florida, of 1,300 maybe, and the closest Judo is up in Lakeland. My old Pal George Bass lives there and probably has a dojo working. Tampa is a good place for it too, but too far.
My son taped most of the 2001 Olympic Judo (he lives in Japan) and sent them to me. I really enjoyed it because the Judo appears to have improved somewhat. In the past decades the few seconds they would show Judo on TV it looked so bad I turned it off. Wow, some guy from Brazil threw a Japanese guy in finals with a classic uchimata; the Japanese guy reached for the mat and broke his arm – big time. But, viewing the replays in slow motion that was nearly a perfect unchimata. Felt badly for them both – the pain and the Brazilian looked like he would cry!:wah:
Hey, I haven’t seen it in 40 years either! It just never caught on here in the States. The Air Force allowed me the time and paid for my training in the combative measures class at the Kodokan -- near the very end of the program in 1961. That was the last time I actually trained in it or saw it again. At a couple AF tournaments the higher dans would perform some of those kata during opening ceremonies, but that was the last I saw any “jujitsu” type stuff at Judo events. However, over the years most of the Judoka I knew practiced something other than Judo and distinguishes Judo players from most everyone else in Martial Arts. Akijitsu, karate, Aikido and so on.
It was partly us old guys' fault for this mess; we just didnÂ’t follow traditions well. From the time I returned to the States until 1980 I must have had 3,000 or more students at one time or the other, but let a lot of tradition slip.
During the 1960Â’s a lot of my friends did practice Judo as self-defense. At Bergstrom AFB, in Austin, Texas we trained the Austin Police in our Judo club and additional class in hand-to-hand stuff. Your remember the idiot who shot all those people from the top of the Texas Tower? One of the cops who got killed trying to get to him was in our class at Bergstrom. CanÂ’t remember his name and my old friend and I were just talking about him last month. The age thing!
Yes, we were serious about self-defense aspect of Judo then, but in the 1970Â’s things changed.I would love to teach again, but too many years away from would hamper my abilities to translate Judo to others. Besides, I live in a small town in central Florida, of 1,300 maybe, and the closest Judo is up in Lakeland. My old Pal George Bass lives there and probably has a dojo working. Tampa is a good place for it too, but too far.
My son taped most of the 2001 Olympic Judo (he lives in Japan) and sent them to me. I really enjoyed it because the Judo appears to have improved somewhat. In the past decades the few seconds they would show Judo on TV it looked so bad I turned it off. Wow, some guy from Brazil threw a Japanese guy in finals with a classic uchimata; the Japanese guy reached for the mat and broke his arm – big time. But, viewing the replays in slow motion that was nearly a perfect unchimata. Felt badly for them both – the pain and the Brazilian looked like he would cry!:wah:
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GouRonin
Guest
It's getting pretty frustrating. I have a bud there who is about the same level as me. We work well together but we don't always get out at the same time.
I don't see the point in learning aything past yellow when I don't have that down yet. So it just goes over my head and I try and keep what I can.
There is a BJJ place in town apparently and I was invited to go visit. If the curriculum is standardized and they work it more like I'm happy with I might go there.
We'll see.
I don't see the point in learning aything past yellow when I don't have that down yet. So it just goes over my head and I try and keep what I can.
There is a BJJ place in town apparently and I was invited to go visit. If the curriculum is standardized and they work it more like I'm happy with I might go there.
We'll see.
