Judo vs sport vs street vs combat?

[frank raud]

I love it when people talk about military combat and have never went to war. This seems to me that you are goading me. Your comment
"Matt, you took offense to the original post. I believe that was the intention." is audacious at best.

Hmm, must apologise. I used the word offense, you called it disturbing.

"So being an instructor as well as a well versed competitor I find you inquiry a bit disturbing. It seems to me as though I were to go to an MMA board for example and ask them to substantiate what it is they practice"

I believe the original poster is trolling for reactions,look at his second post

"A week later and only one answers the challenge? A pity. From the postings of some others here, one would expect Judo to be the ultimate martial art, and that replying to my query would be but child's play to them. Their inability to formulate a suitable reply shows that they have much still to learn."

Does that sound like a genuinely curious question, or someone who has carefully chosen their words to bait a response?

I didn't talk about military combat, I asked questions about it. So I am confused how it is that I goaded you. You provided a scenario with multiple opponents different than the original poster. I acknowledged that, and asked for some clarification on the differences between your scenario(real life) versus the hypothetical scenario originally offered.

I commend you on your many medals and obvious courage and valour, you have given a lot for your country.

If you feel that I am goading and baiting you, put me on ignore. Apparently you wont be missing much.

 

[Carol]

[playnice]Carol Kaur[/playnice]

 

[Darth F.Takeda]

So am I to understand that Civillians should not discuss military combat?
That's what was just implied.

Never been in the service (got asthma, tried 3 times) but I was raised by a 3 tour vet, his Dad was a WW2 vet, most of my step dad's friends were Vietna and Korea vets. I always had an intrest in Military history, weapons and martial arts.

The dojo I train in was mostly made up of Marines (It started at Larson's gym in Quantico, we are Quantico Dojo and our Kai is Quantico Kai. the father of MCMAP studied in the Dojo for a number of years) before 9-11. Many of our students are retired Marines.
Our late sempai was in Spec ops for about 20 years of a 26 year carreer in the Army and a few of those who served with him also studied with us.
Our sensei trained LRRPs in the 60s while in the Army.

My late sempai, Col James Tirey,USA(ret) and I would discuss warfare alot and I did ask him if it botherd him talking with a civie about it. He said no, there are simularities between warfare and civillian fighting (and as he pointed out many differences). Maybe being SF (who's main job is to teach others to raise merry Hell) his outlook was different from an Infantry Marine, but most of the Marines I know do not have a problem talking with civs about it either.

True I am very respectfull and choose my words carefully and never goad or pry.

A few times I have run into the attitude that only Soldiers/Marines should talk of such things, but usually these are from guys who never saw the elephant either and have had less street fights than myself.

It would be prudent to remind everyone that there is a tradition of civillians fighting. Ask the Britts about what the backwoods men did to them. At the time the Brittish Army was the best in the World, yet civillians, not playing the line up and follow the rules approach to fighting had a great effect on the Brittish war effort (True it took a standing Army to win the war.)
Andrew Jackson had no formal training, yet the battle of New Orleans was won by him, over the same men who would fight with Wellington and bring down Napolean.
Many civillians fought in the Indian wars and played a big part in the conquest of the United States.
Military History and tactics are a good resource of study for a martial artist. Flanking, envelopement, feighning, deception, the willingness to close and kill an enemy, the understanding that you usually are better off counter attacking into an ambush instead of backing up, the Mantra of Speed+Surprise+Violence of action = chaos! are very relevent to the serious student of combat, of anykind.

Now I am quick to add that the study of warfare and KNOWING warfare are not the same. (and it's one of the many reasons I tried to enlist into combat arms, to see and feel it for myself.)
Many of the service members who have performed so well in Afghanastan, Iraq and Somlia had no combat exp. untill they went to war.
It was the training, based on the study of war, along with other qualities that helped these people perform so well.
Just as if things go Thunderdome here one day and I have to protect my family or my country, then I will stand to and do what I must do.
It's a dying American tradition.
Thanks to all of those who serve, fight the fight, give all and show the lessons learned.
God bless.

 

[matt.m]

I love it when people talk about military combat and have never went to war. This seems to me that you are goading me. Your comment
"Matt, you took offense to the original post. I believe that was the intention." is audacious at best.

Hmm, must apologise. I used the word offense, you called it disturbing.

"So being an instructor as well as a well versed competitor I find you inquiry a bit disturbing. It seems to me as though I were to go to an MMA board for example and ask them to substantiate what it is they practice"

I believe the original poster is trolling for reactions,look at his second post

"A week later and only one answers the challenge? A pity. From the postings of some others here, one would expect Judo to be the ultimate martial art, and that replying to my query would be but child's play to them. Their inability to formulate a suitable reply shows that they have much still to learn."

Does that sound like a genuinely curious question, or someone who has carefully chosen their words to bait a response?

I didn't talk about military combat, I asked questions about it. So I am confused how it is that I goaded you. You provided a scenario with multiple opponents different than the original poster. I acknowledged that, and asked for some clarification on the differences between your scenario(real life) versus the hypothetical scenario originally offered.

I commend you on your many medals and obvious courage and valour, you have given a lot for your country.

If you feel that I am goading and baiting you, put me on ignore. Apparently you wont be missing much.

Not only do I accept your apology with graciousness I will give you rep for consideration and humility. I won't block you, I just misunderstood. Thank you.

 

[matt.m]

So am I to understand that Civillians should not discuss military combat?
That's what was just implied.

Never been in the service (got asthma, tried 3 times) but I was raised by a 3 tour vet, his Dad was a WW2 vet, most of my step dad's friends were Vietna and Korea vets. I always had an intrest in Military history, weapons and martial arts.

The dojo I train in was mostly made up of Marines (It started at Larson's gym in Quantico, we are Quantico Dojo and our Kai is Quantico Kai. the father of MCMAP studied in the Dojo for a number of years) before 9-11. Many of our students are retired Marines.
Our late sempai was in Spec ops for about 20 years of a 26 year carreer in the Army and a few of those who served with him also studied with us.
Our sensei trained LRRPs in the 60s while in the Army.

My late sempai, Col James Tirey,USA(ret) and I would discuss warfare alot and I did ask him if it botherd him talking with a civie about it. He said no, there are simularities between warfare and civillian fighting (and as he pointed out many differences). Maybe being SF (who's main job is to teach others to raise merry Hell) his outlook was different from an Infantry Marine, but most of the Marines I know do not have a problem talking with civs about it either.

True I am very respectfull and choose my words carefully and never goad or pry.

A few times I have run into the attitude that only Soldiers/Marines should talk of such things, but usually these are from guys who never saw the elephant either and have had less street fights than myself.

It would be prudent to remind everyone that there is a tradition of civillians fighting. Ask the Britts about what the backwoods men did to them. At the time the Brittish Army was the best in the World, yet civillians, not playing the line up and follow the rules approach to fighting had a great effect on the Brittish war effort (True it took a standing Army to win the war.)
Andrew Jackson had no formal training, yet the battle of New Orleans was won by him, over the same men who would fight with Wellington and bring down Napolean.
Many civillians fought in the Indian wars and played a big part in the conquest of the United States.
Military History and tactics are a good resource of study for a martial artist. Flanking, envelopement, feighning, deception, the willingness to close and kill an enemy, the understanding that you usually are better off counter attacking into an ambush instead of backing up, the Mantra of Speed+Surprise+Violence of action = chaos! are very relevent to the serious student of combat, of anykind.

Now I am quick to add that the study of warfare and KNOWING warfare are not the same. (and it's one of the many reasons I tried to enlist into combat arms, to see and feel it for myself.)
Many of the service members who have performed so well in Afghanastan, Iraq and Somlia had no combat exp. untill they went to war.
It was the training, based on the study of war, along with other qualities that helped these people perform so well.
Just as if things go Thunderdome here one day and I have to protect my family or my country, then I will stand to and do what I must do.
It's a dying American tradition.
Thanks to all of those who serve, fight the fight, give all and show the lessons learned.
God bless.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying and appreciate the fact that you are choosy about wording. However, I have several members of my family who had served in the Army and Marines. My family were the Highlanders of Scotland and built the Presbyterian University. Anyway, It is way different when hearing a story and being part of the situation where history is written. I am glad you understand the difference. Thank you as well for your considerate post.

 

[Devon]

Much of Barton-Wright's ideas on what needed to be added to Judo/Jiu Jitsu could be qualified as adapting it to a western framework, ie, it would be more common to be attacked by someone with experience or familiarity with boxing or european style wrestling than by another judoka. Also keep in mind, he was not promoting judo/jiu jitsu, but his own art Bartitsu. Therefore, the Japanese arts would be explained as lacking, with Bartitsu being the "complete" art.

Correct on both counts. Bartitsu was intended as a process of cross-training between Japanese, French and English fighting styles and Barton-Wright advocated learning enough of any one style that it could be used to counter the others.

He recognized that it was more likely for his students in London to be attacked by someone with a boxing background, or by a savateur if they traveled to Paris, than by a jujitsuka. His specific advice was to assume a boxing guard and to use boxing defense against a boxer, but this was a ruse in order to close and counter with jujitsu, which was all but unknown except to his students at the time, and so was expected to be an effective "secret weapon".

The premise was that Bartitsu encompassed the best aspects of three styles of ko-ryu jujitsu, Kodokan judo, English boxing, savate and walking stick fighting. However, within a couple of years Barton-Wright started feeling the heat from the overwhelming public interest in jujitsu and his "star" instructors, Yukio Tani and Sadakazu Uyenishi, who were making a big name for themselves as challenge wrestlers in the music hall circuit.

When B-W wrote the article quoted in the OP he was kind of in damage control mode, stressing that while judo and jujitsu were excellent methods, they were only elements of the larger art of Bartitsu. Unfortunately for him, shortly after that he had an argument and a fight with Yukio Tani; Tani and Uyenishi left to pursue their own careers and Barton-Wright's Bartitsu Club closed down soon after that.

Within a couple more years, sporting magazines and newspapers stirred up a "boxing vs. jujitsu" debate and pretty soon after that promoters started staging boxing vs. judo/JJ matches. Some of them were rigged, others seem to have been genuine contests. The judomen usually won, but not as often as you might think, probably because the boxers were not required to wear gi jackets.

 

[Bodhisattva]

Judo vs sport vs street vs combat

In 1902, Barton-Wright wrote: "Judo and jujitsu were not designed as primary means of attack and defence against a boxer or a man who kicks you, but were only to be used after coming to close quarters, and in order to get to close quarters it was absolutely necessary to understand boxing and the use of the foot."

An interesting quotation from one who founded his own art over 100 years ago.

An expert of a hundred years past, found jujutsu and judo lacking and felt the need to enhance them by combining them with arts from Britain, France and Switzerland. What did he find so lacking in such a perfect art I wonder?

Judo of course is a wonderful art. Originating in Japan in the 1890's by Kano Jigoro, it is a grappling art with it's foundation in several older jujustu schools. It's currently a recognized Olympic sport, and there in is the challenge. An art taught as a sport is a difficult transition to a street or combat environment, especially one where attackers do not politely wait their turn nor attack when you are prepared. Life is not the movies.

So, being one unfamiliar with much of the modern ideals of Judo, how or even can it prepare you to safely and effectively handle multiple simultaneous committed attackers?

What say you to some taninzu-gake?
I shall await reply, and the Saké.

Judo is great for self defense.