Traditional Grappling Skills

[DanT]

Based on my experience, only a few styles of Kung Fu have a dedicated Traditional Grappling curriculum. I have found that Shaolin and White Crane both have extensive ground fighting techniques (not just "anti-grappling" stuff). Although it's complexity isn't near where BJJ is at, it seems to resemble Judo in the sense that it exists but is typically a side portion of the curriculum. What styles in your experience cover the following aspects of ground fighting:

-Take down defence / offence
-Ground offensive striking
-Rolling, getting up safely
-Submissions
-Submissions defence and counters
-Escapes from mount (etc)

And I'm talking about legitimate traditional ground fighting skills, not ones that were added into the curriculum later, and not ones that are bogus.

 

[Kababayan]

Krav Maga isn't known as a grappling art, but they do a great job of teaching the gap in between standing up and being on the ground. Meaning, how to protect oneself while initially being knocked to the ground, and how to protect oneself while safely getting back up.

 

[DanT]

Krav Maga isn't known as a grappling art, but they do a great job of teaching the gap in between standing up and being on the ground. Meaning, how to protect oneself while initially being knocked to the ground, and how to protect oneself while safely getting back up.

I would assume then the Grappling skills in Shaolin and White Crane and Krav Maga are similar in that they emphasize escape and getting back to your feet.

 

[VPT]

Based on my experience, only a few styles of Kung Fu have a dedicated Traditional Grappling curriculum. I have found that Shaolin and White Crane both have extensive ground fighting techniques (not just "anti-grappling" stuff).

Are you talking of Shaolin as in Shaolinquan from the Henan temple?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

View attachment 21307 View attachment 21308 View attachment 21309 View attachment 21310 Based on my experience, only a few styles of Kung Fu have a dedicated Traditional Grappling curriculum. I have found that Shaolin and White Crane both have extensive ground fighting techniques (not just "anti-grappling" stuff). Although it's complexity isn't near where BJJ is at, it seems to resemble Judo in the sense that it exists but is typically a side portion of the curriculum. What styles in your experience cover the following aspects of ground fighting:

-Take down defence / offence
-Ground offensive striking
-Rolling, getting up safely
-Submissions
-Submissions defence and counters
-Escapes from mount (etc)

And I'm talking about legitimate traditional ground fighting skills, not ones that were added into the curriculum later, and not ones that are bogus.

What's the source for those photos?

 

[DanT]

Are you talking of Shaolin as in Shaolinquan from the Henan temple?

Yes the Shaolin Quan from the Henan Shaolin Temple.

 

[Flying Crane]

And I'm talking about legitimate traditional ground fighting skills, not ones that were added into the curriculum later, and not ones that are bogus.

How do you define these points? What is “legitimate traditional” vs not “legitimate traditional”?

What is bogus or not bogus?

No style sprang forth fully formed from a vacuum. Things do change over the generations. So it is possible that grappling was added later. Where do you draw the line? 50, 100, 200 years ago? 50, 100, 200 years after the system was founded or acknowledged by outside sources?

I think the lines get very blurry, depending on perspective.

 

[DanT]

What's the source for those photos?

Photos I found online under google images.

 

[DanT]

How do you define these points? What is “legitimate traditional” vs not “legitimate traditional”?

What is bogus or not bogus?

No style sprang forth fully formed from a vacuum. Things do change over the generations. So it is possible that grappling was added later. Where do you draw the line? 50, 100, 200 years ago? 50, 100, 200 years after the system was founded or acknowledged by outside sources?

I think the lines get very blurry, depending on perspective.

I agree with you. What I mean when I'm referring to traditional is techniques that were part of the system before the fad of adding ground fighting came in (due to UFC / BJJ, etc.). By Bogus I refer to techniques or advice that is created by someone with no experience in grappling (anti-Grappling for example).

 

[Steve]

I agree with you. What I mean when I'm referring to traditional is techniques that were part of the system before the fad of adding ground fighting came in (due to UFC / BJJ, etc.). By Bogus I refer to techniques or advice that is created by someone with no experience in grappling (anti-Grappling for example).

That's about the most concise description of legitimate and bogus as I've heard.

 

[DanT]

That's about the most concise description of legitimate and bogus as I've heard.

Is that a good or a bad thing?

 

[Steve]

Is that a good or a bad thing?

That's a good thing. I'm inclined to be too wordy.

 

[JowGaWolf]

 

[Anarax]

Wait Wait Wait!!! You're telling me BJJ wasn't the first and only grappling style? I'm confused

 

[JowGaWolf]

 

[JowGaWolf]

I would assume then the Grappling skills in Shaolin and White Crane and Krav Maga are similar in that they emphasize escape and getting back to your feet.

All Chinese Martial Arts reflect this same perspective. Being on the ground is not where you want to be in a real fight. Sports fighting is one thing, but in a real fight it could be very dangerous, especially in the event where there could be more than one attacker.

This is why they say being on the ground is bad.

The concept is fairly simple. It's better maintain your mobility. Being in the U.S. I think this is even more important with guns being everywhere. You don't want to be in a fight on the ground when your attacker's friend or family pulls out a gun. By being on the ground, you have just given up your ability to flee. The Gracies have even said as much. Can you win on the ground in the street fight? Of course. We have seen it many times. But at what risk are you taking to win?

Here you can see that people willingly go to the ground and pay for it. Like everything in martial arts there is a time an place to do a technique.

 

[DanT]

This particular video does a good job of demonstrating Shaolin Groundfighting skills. It shows how the emphasis is on position recovery / reversals and getting back to your feet.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This particular video does a good job of demonstrating Shaolin Groundfighting skills. It shows how the emphasis is on position recovery / reversals and getting back to your feet.

He's one of the few martial artists that I enjoy listening to and watching. He's very practical with what he shows.

 

[VPT]

Yes the Shaolin Quan from the Henan Shaolin Temple.

What's your lineage, specifically, in terms of generations? I'm getting curious.