Traditional Bajiquan martial art

[Flying Crane]

One of my sensei's trained in Fu Jow Pai. I learned two of the forms from either fu jow pai or hung gar (can't recall which, although can still perform the forms) from him, as a way for my movements not to be so 'hard', but didn't actually learn either system. I would ask him questions, and he explained to me that system works the same way you described/are doubtful of...you have to learn hung gar before you learn fu jow pai. According to him, fu jow pai was based around hung gar and focused on one specific aspect, so you had to learn the system as a whole before specializing. It wasn't that they were developed hand in hand, but rather that learning the second system would be incomplete without first learning the first system. Makes sense to me.

If the one system was specifically developed to rely on the other, then that makes sense.

If it was developed independently, then it would not make sense.

 

[macher]

If the one system was specifically developed to rely on the other, then that makes sense.

If it was developed independently, then it would not make sense.

I read somewhere that one of the Baji masters was sent to a friend of his Grandmaster who was a a Taiji master to help develop softness.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I read somewhere that one of the Baji masters was sent to a friend of his Grandmaster who was a a Taiji master to help develop softness.

But that's different then a blanket statement of "you must learn this before I teach you"

 

[macher]

But that's different then a blanket statement of "you must learn this before I teach you"

Let me clarify and I’m not sure I mentioned it. The Sifu said he won’t teach Baji to someone who has never practiced CMA unless they go through some training. He mentioned Baji isn’t a MA that you can jump into without any other previous practice.

 

[Flying Crane]

Let me clarify and I’m not sure I mentioned it. The Sifu said he won’t teach Baji to someone who has never practiced CMA unless they go through some training. He mentioned Baji isn’t a MA that you can jump into without any other previous practice.

And that is what I am trying to understand. Why must a different style be taught as a prerequisite? And how much training in a different style is required?

 

[macher]

And that is what I am trying to understand. Why must a different style be taught as a prerequisite? And how much training in a different style is required?

Update this is what I found out about the ‘training’ before learning Bajiquan. It was developed by Grand Master Liu Yun-Qiao in the 70’s. It’s a traditional way of following the curriculum and training. I actually was talking to another Bajiquan teacher from a school that’s too far from me but he told me that the teacher at the school I was posting about trainer under his Sifu. He the school is definitely teaching traditional.

‘You start with the Long Fist and Northern Mantis system to help build up and open up the body structure. Then get into Taichi system to train synchronicity, then when the body is ready you get into Bajiquan, Bagua and Pigua systems.’

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

‘You start with the Long Fist and Northern Mantis system to help build up and open up the body structure. Then get into Taichi system to train synchronicity, then when the body is ready you get ...’

This approach make sense. You can use

1. Foundation training - long fist to build up foundation.
2. Speed and application training - preying mantis to understand the application (long fist can be too abstract).
3. Slow body coordination training - Taiji to develop body unification and enhance outside 3 harmony (hand and foot, elbow and knee, shoulder and hip).

You then start your Baji power generation training after that.

 

[VPT]

Lü Baochun has some students in UK, I believe. And as a matter of fact, I think he teaches Baji right away and only then other stuff like Xingyi, Bagua and Taiji.

 

[macher]

Lü Baochun has some students in UK, I believe. And as a matter of fact, I think he teaches Baji right away and only then other stuff like Xingyi, Bagua and Taiji.

The Sifu I talked to who told me the curriculum responded to me...

“However, as much as I agree with the solid curriculum Grand Master Liu Yun-Qiao had designed back in the 70s, I personally find it a bit too time consuming for today’s world, it would take at least five to ten years before you are “ready”. I’ve reorganized our systems a bit and came up with a more Bajiquan focused curriculum while making sure students don’t get hurt... However there are flaws that comes with my “shortened” curriculums of course.”

 

[Flying Crane]

This approach make sense. You can use

1. Foundation training - long fist to build up foundation.
2. Speed and application training - preying mantis to understand the application (long fist can be too abstract).
3. Slow body coordination training - Taiji to develop body unification and enhance outside 3 harmony (hand and foot, elbow and knee, shoulder and hip).

You then start your Baji power generation training after that.

In my opinion it does not make sense if those systems are truly separate systems. Otherwise they are simply subsets of each other. In essence, when described like this the preying mantis, the taiji, and the baji are all subsets of longfist. Perhaps they are advanced aspects of longfist.

But I know that is not actually true.

I dunno, it just does not make sense to me. The system i train has its own method of developing basics and speed and power and rooting and application. If the system is trained properly then you get all of those things. It does not make sense to me to need to train one system before you can train a different system, if they are actually separate systems.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In my opinion it does not make sense if those systems are truly separate systems. Otherwise they are simply subsets of each other. In essence, when described like this the preying mantis, the taiji, and the baji are all subsets of longfist. Perhaps they are advanced aspects of longfist.

All the northern CMA have strong influence from the long fist system. People even call long fist as the mother of all northern CMA systems. The long fist system is like the bronze level ball room dancing. It teaches you the basic fox step, box step, cha cha step, ... If you have a solid training of the 8 basic long fist stances and also the smooth transition among them, it will be very easy for you to learn any MA system after that.

For example, with long fist foundation, I have learned the 108 moves long Taiji form within 1 and 1/2 hour that most people may take at least 10 hours to learn it. All I need to remember is what stance that each move in the 108 moves. How to transfer from one stance into another stance has already been part of my body nature response.

All long fist guys will know that the long fist system is only the beginning. If you want to work on

- speed, you will cross train preying mantis, Zimen, Pi Gua.
- power, you will cross train Baji, XingYi Liu He, Chen Taiji.
- throw, you will cross train Chinese wrestling.

My long fist brothers all started from long fist and end with something else.

 

[Flying Crane]

All the northern CMA have strong influence from the long fist system. People even call long fist as the mother of all northern CMA systems. The long fist system is like the bronze level ball room dancing. It teaches you the basic fox step, box step, cha cha step, ... If you have a solid training of the 8 basic long fist stances and also the smooth transition among them, it will be very easy for you to learn any MA system after that.

For example, with long fist foundation, I have learned the 108 moves long Taiji form within 1 and 1/2 hour that most people may take at least 10 hours to learn it. All I need to remember is what stance that each move in the 108 moves. How to transfer from one stance into another stance has already been part of my body nature response.

All long fist guys will know that the long fist system is only the beginning. If you want to work on

- speed, you will cross train preying mantis, Zimen, Pi Gua.
- power, you will cross train Baji, XingYi Liu He, Chen Taiji.
- throw, you will cross train Chinese wrestling.

My long fist brothers all started from long fist and end with something else.

To develop in white crane, I train in white crane. Maybe white crane is different. I dunno. It’s from Tibet.

If the people who developed these other systems, mantis, baji, etc. had trained in long fist before they developed these other systems, and essentially developed them with the long fist foundation in mind, then I see the connection.

If not, then it seems to me that people do not understand how to teach their own system.

 

[punisher73]

And that is what I am trying to understand. Why must a different style be taught as a prerequisite? And how much training in a different style is required?

I think sometimes, culturally, it comes down to learning an "open system" and learning to trust the student before showing him a more closed door system. I known that some styles even teach "pubic" forms and then for the closed door students teach the same forms with slightly different angles etc. that make it effective.

Not sure if that is the case with this or just an instructor preference.

 

[punisher73]

Episode of Kung Fu Quest that discusses Baiji.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think sometimes, culturally, it comes down to learning an "open system" and learning to trust the student before showing him a more closed door system. I known that some styles even teach "pubic" forms and then for the closed door students teach the same forms with slightly different angles etc. that make it effective.

Not sure if that is the case with this or just an instructor preference.

I’d be interested in learning one of the pubic forms...

 

[ArcticSin]

Edit: I didn't realize this post was a year old lol

I am a student of the Wu Tang Philadelphia branch. Our teacher does teach baji as soon as day 1, just not Xiao, da or Lian
Huan Quan forms. It takes a couple years to get to that. We learn baji early on in the form of structural training and a simple military baji form called Zhong Yi Quan. Bajiquan is the basis for all of our training, even if we learn long fist, Mantis, bagua and other stuff to fill in the gaps between the serious baji training. You should come down and visit and ask, we have classes Mondays and Thursdays!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Edit: I didn't realize this post was a year old lol

I am a student of the Wu Tang Philadelphia branch. Our teacher does teach baji as soon as day 1, just not Xiao, da or Lian
Huan Quan forms. It takes a couple years to get to that. We learn baji early on in the form of structural training and a simple military baji form called Zhong Yi Quan. Bajiquan is the basis for all of our training, even if we learn long fist, Mantis, bagua and other stuff to fill in the gaps between the serious baji training. You should come down and visit and ask, we have classes Mondays and Thursdays!

You're not the first person to revive this (or any other) thread here.

Welcome to MartialTalk! Drop in over at the Beginner's Corner and give us the lowdown on your shady (or boring, whichever the case may be) background.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I have just talked to a Baji instructor last night. He told me that the basic Baji training require a student to hold 8 inhales and 8 exhales in each and every move of the little Baji form for 3 months. Since 99% of the students won't be able to pass that requirement test, teacher doesn't want to waste his teaching time, the long fist training is used to remove the unpatient students before the serious Baiji training will start.

 

[JibPower]

Hey there,
I'm new on this forum (introduced myself in the Beginner's Corner), I'm reactivating this thread
Just wanted to let you know about 2 new places where you can learn Baji Quan in Canada.
TORONTO
Every Friday from 7PM to 9PM (with Shifu Ip)
300 Silver Star Blvd, Toronto, ON
M1V 0G2
(Basement dance room)
GREATER MONTREAL AREA
Every Sunday from 10AM to 12PM (with Shihing JB)
292 Chemin de Saint-Jean,
La Prairie, QC J5R 2K3
(in the Gladiateur Gym on the second floor)

Our website is still under development, but you can take a look here: https://wuzhongbaji.wixsite.com/bajiquancanada

And see our Facebook Page here: Baji Quan Canada

I can possibly answer some questions about the style also if you have some ;-)
Peace
JibPower

 

[Randy Pio]

One of my sensei's trained in Fu Jow Pai. I learned two of the forms from either fu jow pai or hung gar (can't recall which, although can still perform the forms) from him, as a way for my movements not to be so 'hard', but didn't actually learn either system. I would ask him questions, and he explained to me that system works the same way you described/are doubtful of...you have to learn hung gar before you learn fu jow pai. According to him, fu jow pai was based around hung gar and focused on one specific aspect, so you had to learn the system as a whole before specializing. It wasn't that they were developed hand in hand, but rather that learning the second system would be incomplete without first learning the first system. Makes sense to me.

Were you part of the Tak Wah Eng Federation?