Tradition or Change: White or Colored Uniform

[glad2bhere]

Dear MichiganTKD, Nathan et al:

Just some quick thoughts.

I know some people subscribe to that sort of superstitious belief about not washing the belt so don't take it personal if I don't go along with it. In Hapkido we tend to make much more personal contact and I can be a real fanatic about my students tending to hygiene. Its not just the belt, but the uniform that needs washing, and the toenails needing clipping, and staying off the mat if you have a rash or sore and so forth. Nothing personal if you don't want to wash the belt, just remember that in time it will become a possible source of fungus, bacteria or infection given the right circumstances. Maybe its not so much a concern for those arts that make little or no contact. Thoughts?

As far as the differences in uniforms I have been confused about this ever since the TKD/TSD people started using V-necks and calling them "traditional". This was made MORE confusing when I first broached the subject of using the han-bok for all KMA (after the fashion of the Taek Kyon people) and caught a lot of flack for it in another discussion. I can't quite get my fingers around where the overall sentiment is going in the KMA in this regard. I got a circular from OTOMIX the other day and was completely un-nerved by what they had to offer. Apparently CENTURY still makes enough $$$ off of their line of do-boks to continue to offer the "old fashioned" uniform including the drawstring. Anyone? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[MichiganTKD]

I think practicing in a han-bok would be really neat. Let you know in no uncertain terms your style is Korean. Wonder how our Grandmaster would feel about that?

 

[glad2bhere]

So far its been a bit of a mixed experience but its not necessarily because of the clothing style. Rather I think it has more to do with the manufacturer that I have found thus far. The current item I am experimenting with closes L-over-R with an internal tie for the R and and an external tie for the L. The ankles are gathered with velcro which is also a nice touch over the more traditional string-ties. So far so good. Now the bad news.

The internal tie binds for a number of R-hand, horizontal moves, and the external tie is too centered in the chest area. The result is that the centerline of the uniform tends to "walk" around ones' middle. It also does not help that the material is cotton-poly mix and we all know how that can cling when its soaked with perspiration. I think a decent modification would be to make the uniform out of 14 oz. 100% cotton and cut just a bit oversize per size---- call it "4-plus" for instance. Close the top with a standard tie more on a bias in front of the right shoulder. By tradition most people coming to workout in the their han-bok would have removed the top and worked-out in their undershirt, or maybe even barechested, any how. Funny how much a class would have looked like a bunch of people training in Chinese uniforms, ne?

BTW: I DO wish I knew where those Taek Kyon people get THEIR uniforms!!

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Touch Of Death]

In America, our national colors are red, white, and blue. These colors are based on certain principles that define our nation. I didn't make the rules, and I don't have the power to change them. They are traditional. if you decide you are going to wear red, white, and green because you want to be different, you are basically saying "I can change the rules if I want to". Well, no you can't.
To me, Tae Kwon Do is the same way. The traditional uniform color is white, based on what white represents in Korean thought. If you change the color, say red, blue, white/black etc., you are basically saying "I can change the rules if I want to". Well, no you can't. The rules of Tae Kwon Do etiquette and tradition predate anything you think you can change.
You can wear a different color uniform but it wouldn't be traditional Tae Kwon Do and you can't pass it as such.

Gotta love them traditions that are less than 100 years old. :asian:
Sean

 

[MichiganTKD]

Koreans wearing white clothes and uniforms goes back a lot longer than 100 years. And red, white, and blue has been our nation's colors since the beginning.
In fact, Koreans were known as the "white-clad people".

 

[TigerWoman]

Quoting "Black Belt Tae Kwon Do" by Yeon Hwan Park and Jon Gerrard, Page 3.

"The first practiitioners of Tae Kwon Do did not use a series of colored belts to indicate their progress. They did not have formal uniforms like the dobok worn by today's practioners either. The clothing they wore were simple,loose-fitting garments that absorbed sweat and allowed them to move and kick freely, something like the warm-up sweats people wear today. In fact, the clothing they practiced in were actually the undergarments they wore beneath the outer clothes they would normally wear in public."

I guess we aren't tradtional after all in our v-necks. They don't say anything about white but they did say it was underwear. Hey, its the summertime and its more "traditional". Its all in the interpretation. I think a colored uniform is as traditional as when they changed it to a v-neck. I can't follow the rules if someone broke them in the first place. We should be all wearing warm-up sweats like underwear uniforms. How cool is that?
This is all pretty trivial in the big picture, IMO. Sorry, I brought the subject up but I guess it does SHOW how trivial it really is.

 

[terryl965]

TigarWoman thanks for the reminder, you and Black Belt Tae KwonDo are right they did not have uniforms so we all adapted in one way or another..... God Bless America... We have the right to agree or dis aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaggreee on subject s that are brought before us Have a wonderful Day!!!!!!

 

[deadhand31]

One thing that should be realized is that Tae Kwon Do wasn't established as its own art until the 1950's. There were several styles before that which were unified and adapted when the name Tae Kwon Do was chosen. Any real tradition in TKD doesn't stem back before that.

As for what my school does, I guess you could call it semi-traditional. From white belt to high blue belt, we all wear white collar doboks. From red and up, we get the black v-collar, and can choose to wear white or black pants. If you are on our demo team, you get the blue fold-over dobok, which you can wear blue or black with. Assistant instructors have the option of getting a red fold-over dobok, which they can wear with red or black pants. The school instructors get a black v-neck dobok, and sabunims have a diamond pattern dobok. I suppose that the purposes of the doboks also show the level of participation. Good or bad? I don't know. Personally, I don't think it matters as long as the focus is on the art, and not on the looks.

I've seen some pretty ****'ed up uniforms at a sport karate tournament once. There were sequins, flashy patterns, and sparkly weapons. I'm glad I wasn't a participant, because I sure wouldn't have wanted to pick up the soap in the showers around those guys.

On a side note: The XMA and adrenaline uniforms in the latest century catalog are GAY AS ALL HELL. I pity any school that would subject its students to wearing such horribly tasteless uniforms. Even Richard Simmons wouldn't wear one of those repulsive get ups.

Gay *** uniform 1

Gay *** uniforms 2
Agree? Disagree?

:asian:

 

[terryl965]

those are pretty bad and you are right Richard Simmons would not wear one.... GOD BLESS AMERICA

 

[glad2bhere]

Hey, the STAR TREK producers called. Apparently they are very taken with the CENTURY line!!! "Beam me up, Scotty......." artyon:

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[MichiganTKD]

Ay Yi Yi! Who in their right mind?...

I'd feel like an absolute idiot wearing one of those. I think if you buy one, you should also get a coupon for a white wine spritzer and two tickets to an upcoming Liza Minelli concert!

 

[Touch Of Death]

One thing that should be realized is that Tae Kwon Do wasn't established as its own art until the 1950's. There were several styles before that which were unified and adapted when the name Tae Kwon Do was chosen. Any real tradition in TKD doesn't stem back before that.

As for what my school does, I guess you could call it semi-traditional. From white belt to high blue belt, we all wear white collar doboks. From red and up, we get the black v-collar, and can choose to wear white or black pants. If you are on our demo team, you get the blue fold-over dobok, which you can wear blue or black with. Assistant instructors have the option of getting a red fold-over dobok, which they can wear with red or black pants. The school instructors get a black v-neck dobok, and sabunims have a diamond pattern dobok. I suppose that the purposes of the doboks also show the level of participation. Good or bad? I don't know. Personally, I don't think it matters as long as the focus is on the art, and not on the looks.

I've seen some pretty ****'ed up uniforms at a sport karate tournament once. There were sequins, flashy patterns, and sparkly weapons. I'm glad I wasn't a participant, because I sure wouldn't have wanted to pick up the soap in the showers around those guys.

On a side note: The XMA and adrenaline uniforms in the latest century catalog are GAY AS ALL HELL. I pity any school that would subject its students to wearing such horribly tasteless uniforms. Even Richard Simmons wouldn't wear one of those repulsive get ups.

Gay *** uniform 1

Gay *** uniforms 2
Agree? Disagree?

:asian:

Come to think of it all Ma Uniforms look rather light in th loafers in a non-offensive to homosexuals way. I just fail to see why white PJs are better than blue or black PJs. Symbolizing purity doesn't win the fight, and if every one is wearing blue or black or orange(?) then nobody is really standing out as an individual.(I guess orange would be prison TKD)
Sean

 

[TigerWoman]

Those Century XMA uniforms are pretty bad. I supposed they are supposed to look more macho but with the material and the quilted silver patches, they tend to look like a bad Halloween costume. White long sleeve T underneath doesn't help it nor the other costume with the exposed armpits. Yuck!

While I don't think it matters whether the uniforms are red, blue or white. I don't think they should be black until black belt. I saw a WHITE belt adult wear a black uniform in a tournament. The only other black uniforms were the judges. I wondered if he felt the least bit uncomfortable then?

The blue belts earn their blue uniform, the red belts earn theirs too just like their belts. It doesn't detract from any tradition. Its not the color of the skin, its what's within. TW :asian:

 

[Touch Of Death]

While I don't think it matters whether the uniforms are red, blue or white. I don't think they should be black until black belt. I saw a WHITE belt adult wear a black uniform in a tournament. The only other black uniforms were the judges. I wondered if he felt the least bit uncomfortable then?

The blue belts earn their blue uniform, the red belts earn theirs too just like their belts. It doesn't detract from any tradition. Its not the color of the skin, its what's within. TW :asian:

I can't see where that white belt felt uncomfortable. We issue a white uniform with the intro but students are welcome to buy what ever uniform they want. That person would only feel uncomfortable if a traditionalist told him he should. I like the white top with black bottoms look these days. :uhyeah:
Sean

 

[TigerWoman]

I can't see where that white belt felt uncomfortable. We issue a white uniform with the intro but students are welcome to buy what ever uniform they want. That person would only feel uncomfortable if a traditionalist told him he should. I like the white top with black bottoms look these days. :uhyeah:
Sean

Kenpo must be different then. TKD is definitely this way-no black until BB. In that tournament, I think he realized it -was uncomfortable, because as soon as his form was done, he changed his uniform into his regular clothes. I like the white top with black too. But ALL black somehow looks slimmer. Us women THINK about that. TW :uhyeah:

 

[MichiganTKD]

I still don't understand why students wear black uniforms at all. The idea that students can wear whatever uniform they want puzzles me as well. If an Instructor issues a certain uniform, that's one thing. However, for a student to choose a uniform different from what his Instructor wears means that his choice supercedes mine. My students wear the uniform I let them wear, and I choose the white and then the black V-neck. But that's my choice. In traditional TKD, the Instructor dictates everything the students do from uniforms to manners to technique. Even black belts wear what the Instructor says they can wear. If one of my students said "I'm going to wear this uniform instead of the one you choose because I think it looks neat", my response would be to tell them they can wear that one for their new instructor.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I still don't understand why students wear black uniforms at all. The idea that students can wear whatever uniform they want puzzles me as well. If an Instructor issues a certain uniform, that's one thing. However, for a student to choose a uniform different from what his Instructor wears means that his choice supercedes mine. My students wear the uniform I let them wear, and I choose the white and then the black V-neck. But that's my choice. In traditional TKD, the Instructor dictates everything the students do from uniforms to manners to technique. Even black belts wear what the Instructor says they can wear. If one of my students said "I'm going to wear this uniform instead of the one you choose because I think it looks neat", my response would be to tell them they can wear that one for their new instructor.

We don't play the Master servant gig too much, but the uniform is meant for freedom of motion. That is how we reguard them. Its not like every one is mismatched either. Parents generaly wait until their child has grown out of the white uniform and get them the appropriate colors for their B-Day or something. Its no big deal nor is it somthing to try to understand. Its only an issue if you make it one.
Sean

 

[TigerWoman]

Mich.TKD,
Where did that come from? I am not "puzzled" as well, to what students want to wear. It is dictated by their instructor/master if they want to learn at his school. The white belt I mentioned from the tournament probably got the signal it was okay from HIS instructor. I doubt he got the bright idea as a white belt on his own. In fact, the black belt masters, one a 7th dan, wore all black also.

I said we wear black uniforms as black belts and we are allowed to wear them by OUR instructor who wears even more different uniforms. So I don't understand your point, other that your are restating your position again that your students all have to wear white or get out. That is your position and I respect that. :asian: TW

 

[Faye]

This is very interesting. I've been in 3 different dojos, and I honestly never seen colour belts wearing any other colour uniform other than white. And the black belts, some of them still wear white, and some where black pants with black collar, that's it. I suppose blue belt and red belt can wear their respecting colour uniform, but I really have not seen it in my dojo....

 

[MichiganTKD]

Other than some schools having color belts wear doboks with lapels that match the belt, I've never seen color belts wear anything but white. While I don't let my students wear black uniforms at all, black is reserved for Dan students to acknowlege their rank.
What I have noticed is this: schools that have stronger ties to Korea and the WTF, I think, tend to walk a straighter line regarding white vs. colored uniforms. Schools that have looser affiliation to either WTF or ITF and little to no ties to Korea tend to be more liberal in their choice of uniforms.
For example, our Grandmaster is quite close to Woon Kyu Uhm, Chung Do Kwan head. He has also never allowed his students to wear anything other than white uniforms and V-necks. While he is an American citizen and has been for quite awhile, he is still in tune with traditional Korean culture and values, something he imparts to his students (me included). Instructors who are not close to Korean culture and tradition tend to take a more "do what you want" attitude. Both sides have merit. Being grounded in tradition gives you a firm foundation for physical technique and manners. However, if you are TOO entrenched in tradition it is hard to grow and evolve. Otherwise we'd still be doing the Shotokan forms. We'd still be doing Tae Kyon for that matter.
Philosophically, it is important to have a core set of beliefs that you do not deviate from to help you get through life. After that you can make choices.
It is the same for me with, say, uniforms. I choose white uniforms for my students to remind them that Tae Kwon Do is not about ego, flash, and looking cool. When you have 20 students all wearing white, all are the same. Doctor, lawyer, teacher, millionaire, it doesn't matter. Noone is trying to outdo each other in the fashion department. And some student with limited means doesn't have to worry about paying $100 for the fancy red or black uniform because the guy next to him has one.
I also understand not everyone does it this way. This is our organization's way.