school uniforms

[Steve]

Try walking into a Military barracks, as a soldier or marine, wearing something other that what is prescribed and see what happens. Same should hold for a Dojo/Dojang in my opinion. You are learning combat, and should be uniform with the rest of the students.

I disagree. I'm not learning to be a soldier, and I certainly didn't reenlist. The faux military culture some schools have is, I believe, completely unnecessary to learning martial arts. There needs to be order, but there are a number of ways to foster order, discipline and respect outside of a boot camp atmosphere.

If you want it, like it or feel as though you need it, great. It works, but to suggest that it's the best way, or the only way, is very narrowminded. Using a military model is simply one way among many good ways to accomplish these things.

 

[dancingalone]

Try walking into a Military barracks, as a soldier or marine, wearing something other that what is prescribed and see what happens. Same should hold for a Dojo/Dojang in my opinion. You are learning combat, and should be uniform with the rest of the students.

Bad analogy. Going to a ma class is a at most a two hour commitment 2-3 times a week for most people. There's no need to build unthinking compliance to orders given by noncom officers, and in fact you're generally PAYING good money to attend class in the first place. It's much more of a commercial type relationship.

 

[Tez3]

Try walking into a Military barracks, as a soldier or marine, wearing something other that what is prescribed and see what happens. Same should hold for a Dojo/Dojang in my opinion. You are learning combat, and should be uniform with the rest of the students.

??? My club is in a military barracks on a military garrison, we have several diferent corps and regiments and trust me no one gets beaten up for wearing different uniforms. Many of our soldiers wear kit they've bought themselves ( thats a whole different thread btw) Our medical services are tri-service and no one beats them up either for wearing different service uniforms. I myself wear a uniform different from the soldiers, no one gives me grief for it.

dancingalone is correct, there is no comparison between being in the miliarty and being a martial arts student.

 

[Twin Fist]

Young Man says lots of crazy things, we have learned to take them in stride and ignore the worst of it....

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

We did get some people wearing mixed uniforms come to class years ago. It was a pleasure to make them pay in free fighting.

I'm sorry, but this sounds very base. It is up to the school owner to regulate what is acceptable on the dojang floor. If he or she lets them onto the floor to train in a dobok of a different color, you as a student have absolutely no right go punishing that student. If your instructor/school owner instructed the students to do this, then he or she is a coward for putting students up to disciplining other students.

Perhaps there is more to the scenario than what you posted. If so, then please clarify. But it sounds like you had new students, which is what 'we did get some people' translates to when I read it, who showed up without all white doboks and were then punished for it in sparring without ever being told why.

Perhaps the most distrubing thing is that you say that making them pay was a pleasure, so much so that you took the time to broadcast it to the entire world on the web. I'm sorry, but that does not present either you or your dojang in anything resembling a positive light. Assuming that this pleasure was had by all who made these newbies pay, it makes you appear like a bunch of schoolyard bullies. It also doesn't speak well of the general atmosphere of your dojang.

This is not a personal attack and I mean no offense: there may have been more to it that what you posted. But that is how your post comes across.

Daniel

 

[CDKJudoka]

Maybe using the military was a bad analogy, but being that you are in a martial arts school, there should be uniformity. Retribution wouldn't be to the extent that YM mentioned, but there would consequences at any of the schools I have attended, be it reprimand, push ups, or not be able to participate in the class.

As for getting beat up walking into the garrison with incorrect uniform, that won't happen here either, but there are repercussions for being a soldier and NOT wearing the proper uniform. UK is different when it comes to garrison attire depending on if you are in a Highland Regiment or otherwise, but in the US Army, the only difference in uniform is what style it is, Class As, Class Bs, etc or what your head gear is, and that is all. We all wore the same when I was enlisted and that continues to this day.

 

[Steve]

Uniformity is a fluid thing. I, for one, have no interest in becoming a drone so that I can learn a martial art. I prefer a much more practical approach in that the uniform should be one that suits the activity.

If everyone is wearing clothing that meets the functional criteria of the activity, that is uniform. In BJJ, that pretty much means durable and clean. BJJ and Judo Gis are designed to stand up to grappling on the mats and as a result, even the student grade BJJ gis tend to be thicker and more sturdy than other styles.

As far as retribution, ultimately, wear what you want at my schools. The only time pushups or whatever are used are when someone's late and they need to warm up. Stepping on the mats without warming up is dangerous.

One last thing on what I think is a slight tangent, when I was in the air force there were individual choices within the uniforms, at least, outside of basic training. In my BDUs, I could choose between two styles of hat, lots of different possible boots, summer or winter weight. I could blouse them differently, roll up the sleeves and/or wear one of several possible coats or jackets. Some guys had their uniforms professionally pressed and starched. I always thought that looked dumb in a work uniform and chose not to.

Within the dress blues, there were short or long sleeve shirts, jackets, coats, different degrees of salad or medals etc. On the job, people didn't all look identical. While we all had to dress according to reg 35-10, there was latitude.

This was almost 20 years ago, so again, things may have changed some, but I doubt it.

 

[CDKJudoka]

I can see your point about not becoming a drone to the system, but in my opinion, uniformity in what one wears shouldn't change who they are. You go onto the mats in a gi, and you are a BJJ practitioner. If you go without, you are still a practitioner, but when you have a lack of uniformity in a training situation, it could become like High School. "My Gi is nicer than yours because I have the money to pay for it and because of that, I am better than you."

Unfortunately most people, in American society at least, think that way and that is something that doesn't have a place in the training hall. In the training hall, we are all students, regardless of rank.

OT-We weren't given that leeway in the Army, we had one cover and one style of LPC (Leather Personal Carriers) in and out of BCT. For example, my garrison gear was BDUs, black combat boots ( jump boots if you were in an Airborne, Ranger, or SF unit), and a Black Beret. If we didn't comply with the regs, you were warned and then issued an Article 15. The only thing that you could have different was your hair, and that couldn't interfere with the wearing of headgear.

 

[IcemanSK]

Uniformity within a school is important to many instructors. Order in uniform can aide in discipline in the class and add structure to an overall program. To ensure that all students under one instructor are "in uniform" can be an important part of class structure & well,...uniformity. To exact "punishment" on a new student or someone coming in from the outside for a visit for not being "in line" is petty at best. A quick discussion of expectations for next time they visit should be sufficient. Respect is a 2-way street. If an instructor expects to receive it from a perspective visitor or new student, that instructor should respect that people enough to believe they didn't mean any disrespect by wearing the "wrong" uniform to class.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Pointing back to the OP's original question, "how is it for you?" It seems that there is enough variance for us to debate the merits of one particular uniform policy over another.

There are some who have very strong feelings on the subject but the bottom line is to abide by the school's policy. If they require pink polka dot doboks, and if you think that it's stupid, just don't train there. If the school has dobok requirements, it has them for a reason. If you think that the policy is silly, ask your master why only a proscribed style and/or color are allowed. They may have what they feel is a very good reason for it. You still may not agree with them, but at least you'll know. It's the owner's school in the end, so if the owner wishes to enforce a dobok policy, that is their choice.

But given the ready availability these days of doboks outside of one's own dojang (there was nobody in my area to buy such things from when I started and the internet didn't exist), such a policy should be disclosed to incoming students. Likewise, before showing up in a cool new dobok with racing stripes and colors other than the school's norm, students need to ask.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

How uniform is too uniform? Those of you who use the v-neck dobaks, do you get upset when a student shows up with one sporting the Adidas stripes? (some adidas dobaks are more discrete than others, I'm not talking about the huge ones across the shoulders)

Or what if you happen to use white Macho crossover gis in your school? Would you reprimand a student for showing up with a white Tokaido or a Shureido because they fit him better or perhaps he just wants to wear a 'better' uniform?

 

[Laurentkd]

In the past, I hadn't though about a martial art uniform correlating with a military uniform (maybe because I have no personal experience with the military). To me it is more like a team uniform. I know everyone is there to train for themselves, but I think a good school also has a team feel, with everyone encouraging and helping others along the way. Therefore, some sort of team unity is a good thing, and a uniform that an individual takes pride in wearing because it designates them as a part of that group is a powerful thing. Tell me if I am wrong, but I think all teams require some sort of uniform... from little league to professional sports, even police officers, boy scouts, and lifeguards, and even school letter jackets. It makes someone easily identifiable as belonging to a specific group. Now, within those organizations different levels of compliance are required. I remember when a baseball player moved from the Red Sox to the Yankees and thus had photos in the paper of him getting his haircut to comply with the uniform rules of the Yankees.
I guess the point of all this is that a uniform is not solely to turn people into drones, but rather gives an individual the opportunity to identify themselves with a certain group, and obviously a group that they are proud to be a part of. I think that can be a very good thing.

 

[IcemanSK]

Likewise, before showing up in a cool new dobok with racing stripes and colors other than the school's norm, students need to ask.

Daniel

That reminds me of a funny (albeit off OP topc). Before I ever started training, I saw a "really cool" red uniform w/ black stripes from Century in a magazine. The top had a velcro closure. I wanted to get it really bad! Two BB's at the school where I trained had a them in black w/ white stripes as demo uniforms. So, that fateful day after I got my BB, I bought one & wore it to my 1st tournament as a new BB!

The time was 1985, & the "Olympic Spirit" was strong amongst us WTF-style folks...and this was NOT an open tournament! Needeless to say, I stuck out like a sore thumb. I wore a proper black v-neck for poomsae, but after, I strolled out wearing this badboy. That's right, all eyes on me!:uhyeah:

The Koreans were a buzz & not happy. My Korean master not happy to say the least. Yet, it had an odd affect on my competition. The 1st two guys I fought were indimidated. They figured I was "somebody" or at least had a lot of nerve to wear a red uniform to this tournament. They were 17 or 18-ish (like me). I beat them by just being agressive as they thought I might be. I then fought a Korean friend of my who smirked at me & said, "nice uniform" & proceeded to make short work of me. (He would have beaten me the same way had I worn a black v-neck).

I never wore that uniform for a closed TKD tournament again. I did wear it to a few open tournaments later, however.

Just an analogy to show it's appropriate to find out what's fashionable in Rome before you go.

 

[CDKJudoka]

Only time Sabumnim gets miffed with an Adidas uniform, the one with the stripes, is if it were worn by someone who is NOT a 4th Dan and above. You can wear whatever Dobak you want, as long as it is all white for the gups, and white with black collar for the Dans. For the most part, we all wear Dynamics, but he have a few Nike and a few Adidas in there as well. I have two separate dobaks I use, one Y neck ( a Tokaido that I got for Christmas) and the other a V neck. Both are white with black collars.

I did ask Sabumnim if I could wear the Tokaido prior to coming in with it, and all he asked what that I have the school patch put on, and the black added to the collar.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

One comment regarding military correltions between MA schools an the military:

Unless the school can provide authentic military training, the whole paramilitary format that some schools adopt should be dispensed with. I know that there is an element of people who want their school to be just like the military. Funny how most of those guys never were in the military.

I wasn't in the military. I don't pretend that my classes are as tough as the army. I don't pretend to offer militaristic discipline. If you want that, there are people who offer authentic military training and boot camp.

If your background is military and you want your classes that way, then build your business around that clientelle and make sure that they all know that from the moment they hit the mat until the moment they leave, they're your property and make them sign all of the appropriate waiviers.

But otherwise, the school should be just a school and the doboks should be appropriate to both the style and what the owner feels is appropriate.

Daniel

 

[Steve]

In the past, I hadn't though about a martial art uniform correlating with a military uniform (maybe because I have no personal experience with the military). To me it is more like a team uniform. I know everyone is there to train for themselves, but I think a good school also has a team feel, with everyone encouraging and helping others along the way. Therefore, some sort of team unity is a good thing, and a uniform that an individual takes pride in wearing because it designates them as a part of that group is a powerful thing. Tell me if I am wrong, but I think all teams require some sort of uniform... from little league to professional sports, even police officers, boy scouts, and lifeguards, and even school letter jackets. It makes someone easily identifiable as belonging to a specific group. Now, within those organizations different levels of compliance are required. I remember when a baseball player moved from the Red Sox to the Yankees and thus had photos in the paper of him getting his haircut to comply with the uniform rules of the Yankees.
I guess the point of all this is that a uniform is not solely to turn people into drones, but rather gives an individual the opportunity to identify themselves with a certain group, and obviously a group that they are proud to be a part of. I think that can be a very good thing.

First, the bolded part is, I think, important.

Second, I think a distinction between training and competition can be drawn. If you're competing, some sort of team affiliation is needed. We use patches, usually on the back of the gi, but I agree with your point. In training, however, everyone there is on the same "team". I guess for me, the attitudes and actions of the people at the school are far more meaningful to me than something as superficial as the clothes they're wearing. There is also a difference between being paid to wear a uniform and PAYING someone else for a service. If I work at McDs, I'll wear that uniform. I'm being paid to do so. Jason Giambi is no exception.

I want to be clear that I'm speaking purely on a philosophical level. I agree 100% that if you choose to join a school, you are choosing to follow the school's rules. Everything I'm saying is simply my own opinion and has definitely affected my choices in school. If I chose to join a school that wears... what was it? A pink dobok? I would do so without a problem. As others have said, it's a "when in Rome" situation.

 

[Tez3]

Ours isn't a school, it's a club with a club atmosphere where we are all members so uniformity isn't an issue.
Dark Phoenix, I'm not sure what Highland regiments have to do with anything on a garrison tbh. In the British Army you can get several types of boot plus you can buy boots yourself and wear them, the same with a lot of kit, jackets, waterproofs etc. Basically the only time you will find uniformity is when theres a parade. At the moment we have people walking around in desert combats, normal combats, barrack dress and working dress, plus a lot of them are in track suits. There's no loss of discipline.
I think uniforms are fine, no problem whatsoever unless it gets to the point where it turns into a control and ego thing by the instructor/s. I also have issues when the instructors or owners also insist you wear what they sell at extortionate prices. Selling at reasonable prices is fine imo.

 

[CDKJudoka]

.
I think uniforms are fine, no problem whatsoever unless it gets to the point where it turns into a control and ego thing by the instructor/s. I also have issues when the instructors or owners also insist you wear what they sell at extortionate prices. Selling at reasonable prices is fine imo.

That I can understand. Our dojang doesn't force us to purchase anything from them aside from sparring gear, which they attribute to insurance. I do because it's cheaper than any of the other retailers in the area.

And I should have joined the British military then. I am a British citizen after all.

 

[Tez3]

That I can understand. Our dojang doesn't force us to purchase anything from them aside from sparring gear, which they attribute to insurance. I do because it's cheaper than any of the other retailers in the area.

And I should have joined the British military then. I am a British citizen after all.

http://www.armyjobs.mod.uk/Pages/HomePage.aspx

Btw for any one interested in getting fit or fitter there's a free fitness programme on there.

I think some peoples ideas on uniforms are verging on being control freakish. A uniform should primarily be for safety and ease of wear. The team element is useful and does encourage people in feeling part of an association or school. What it shouldn't be is reason for people to beat up on others, there are no bad students,only bad instructors.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=IUcaM_0ztbM
going for nearly 400 years and still the best!!

 

[Laurentkd]

First, the bolded part is, I think, important.

Second, I think a distinction between training and competition can be drawn. If you're competing, some sort of team affiliation is needed. We use patches, usually on the back of the gi, but I agree with your point. In training, however, everyone there is on the same "team". I guess for me, the attitudes and actions of the people at the school are far more meaningful to me than something as superficial as the clothes they're wearing. There is also a difference between being paid to wear a uniform and PAYING someone else for a service. If I work at McDs, I'll wear that uniform. I'm being paid to do so. Jason Giambi is no exception.

I want to be clear that I'm speaking purely on a philosophical level. I agree 100% that if you choose to join a school, you are choosing to follow the school's rules. Everything I'm saying is simply my own opinion and has definitely affected my choices in school. If I chose to join a school that wears... what was it? A pink dobok? I would do so without a problem. As others have said, it's a "when in Rome" situation.

I agree with you, especially the bolded point. But, I think it is important for instructors to remember that a lot (not all, but a lot) of people who join the martial arts do so because maybe they haven't quite found their "thing" yet. I get lots of kids that have low self-confidence, who have never been a part of a sports team that didn't exclude them, or who just have a hard time being social, and probably just as many adults. I think something like a TANGIBLE sign of belonging can be very important to a lot of individuals. It gives them something to hold on to, until they understand and internalize the ideas that you have made in your post.