TRADITION AND KARATE

[hoshin1600]

All of Shorin ryu is conspicuously missing from your list.

i mentioned Matumura Sokon. you would have to be more specific the term Shorin-ryu is used in many ways by multiple systems

 

[hoshin1600]

I think that your definition is fine but for me I would add a level of historic precedent, I.e, give it a few generations before you call it a tradition. Without the time requirement it's just a fad.

I think a tradition has to be something that survives periods of change and upheaval before it earns the weight of that word.

i think i already addressed this in a prior post but this is where i feel we are in disagreement. if you want to term karate as modern i am fine with that but there is no karate before these "modern times" so is there really no such thing as traditional karate?
if we agree on the passing from generation to generation, then as an example there are 7 teacher to student generations from Kanbun Uechi to myself. that seems like it should qualify as a tradition to me.

 

[DaveB]

And you say I'm misleading?

To-te is karate they are different pronunciations of the same words.

I can't remember my dates but karate is at least a generation older than Matsumura, who is only the founder of one ryu that is definitely an exception (in most ways, not all) to my comment. One person rumoured to have taught Matsumura was known as Karate Sakugawa, because he was good at karate, which clearly existed.

Miyagi changed what his teacher taught him and gave it a new name.

Nothing you've written invalidates any of my arguments and by my reading you are even more misleading and confused than I am.

Perhaps Uechi does qualify as a tradition, as I said, there are undoubtedly exceptions. On the other hand are all Uechi schools teaching as Kanbun taught? Either way I was speaking generally, not personally. You can call what you do whatever you like.

As I said, I believe in embracing the fact that change is the only constant.

 

[Dirty Dog]

In every case, the people teaching are teaching what they believe in - and are doing so in the best way they know. .

Here's the problem with absolutes. This statement can he refuted simply by saying
Ashida Kim.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Tradition:

1. the handing down of statements, beliefs, legends, customs, information, etc., from generation to generation, especially by word of mouth or by practice: a story that has come down to us by popular tradition.
2. something that is handed down: the traditions of the Eskimos.
3. a long-established or inherited way of thinking or acting: The rebellious students wanted to break with tradition.
4. a continuing pattern of culture beliefs or practices.
5. a customary or characteristic method or manner: The winner took a victory lap in the usual track tradition.

Traditional:

1. of or relating to tradition.
2. handed down by tradition.
3. in accordance with tradition.
4. of, relating to, or characteristic of the older styles of jazz, especially New Orleans style, Chicago style, Kansas City style, and Dixieland. Compare mainstream (def 4).

 

[hoshin1600]

My apologies I do think I put the word "tode" in place of what I ment "ti" in one sentence. But like I said the wording chinese vs empty is for another thread but the point was that earlier ti is separate from karate.

You are are correct about Sakugawa. I belive historically he was the first to be mentioned to practice "chinese hand" but we do not know if what he knew was a complete system or just a kata. Either way it would have been passed down to Matsumura which is where I made my starting point for the karate he passed on.

 

[TimoS]

You are are correct about Sakugawa. I belive historically he was the first to be mentioned to practice "chinese hand" but we do not know if what he knew was a complete system or just a kata.

Which is one of the reasons I personally have a hard time accepting any lineage that goes beyond him. After all, we don't know for certain that Sakugawa taught Matsumura. He probably did, but nobody knows what exactly he taught. Our karate has two kata from Matsumura, but we don't really know who taught those to Matsumura.

 

[Seizan]

Apart from strict (and restrictive) dictionary definitions, in our style the term "traditional" means basically "that which is commonly accepted as...". So "traditional UechiRyu" has 8 kata beginning with Sanchin, plus some conditioning drills, some bunkai, and sparring. Please note that five of the "traditional" kata were not finalized by Uechi Kanei Sensei until the early 1960's (maybe as early as the late 1950's). My group practices the "traditional" forms plus a few "non-traditional" forms consisting of techniques taught by the Founder, but not seen in the other forms.

Interesting -- we have "non-traditional" forms that were created to preserve old-style techniques that no longer exist in the modified "traditional" version of UechiRyu...

"Traditional TKD" is that which is accepted by the general TKD population as representative of TKD . "Traditional GojuRyu" is that which is commonly taught and understood to be GojuRyu by the general population of GojuRyu practitioners.

Sometimes a dictionary definition does not quite equate with the cultural application for a term.

Purely a Zankyokai point of view, and not intended to change or direct anyone's practice or understanding provided by teachers in other systems or styles.

Best,

Seizan

 

[Zero]

It should also serve as warning to avoid doing stuff just because it's traditional, if it's not moving us towards our goals.

Unless your goal is studying in a traditional martial art or continuing in the teachings of a family lineage or the generation(s) before you.

 

[DaveB]

[But TE="Zero, post: 1717858, member: 11161"]Unless your goal is studying in a traditional martial art or continuing in the teachings of a family lineage or the generation(s) before you.[/QUOTE]

But since we often allow the labelling of any new idea as traditional if it comes from someone with a high enough rank, we can end up doing something as traditional that really isn't. The whole of Shotokan is evidence of this. Three 'k' Karate, Nakayama's idea of kime, long stances; none were trraditional, but they were was sold as such around

 

[Zero]

But since we often allow the labelling of any new idea as traditional if it comes from someone with a high enough rank, we can end up doing something as traditional that really isn't. The whole of Shotokan is evidence of this. Three 'k' Karate, Nakayama's idea of kime, long stances; none were trraditional, but they were was sold as such around

You mean to say I spent all those years sweating in horse stance for no real reason?! I was duped!!

 

[DaveB]

Yes and no.

The "why?" of what you learned was probably manufactured, but the exercise and technique itself was sound.