Tournament time..... :)

[_Simon_]

Simon, you certainly were thinking all kind of thoughts regarding your kumite experience. There was quite a bit to respond to. Allow me to pick one point.



The symbolic punching through barriers and on being assertive as lessons from the kata. How did you learn or come to understand that lesson?

On the mental element, take a look at this condensed JKA tournament video. I'm not advocating Shotokan or JKA styles per se, I like referring to JKA and Shotokan because they always put it out there so to speak. See the video.
JKA World Championships University of Limerick
3,077 views

I Love Limerick
Published on Aug 21, 2017
I'll pick out certain time stamps where I think important karate dynamics on one display. Tell me what you see.

Time = 0:09. Two female black-belt competitors vigorously collide. Hard to tell whose strike lands 1st. The Swiss though is really in there with power. How would she fare against an aggressive opponent?
Time =0:17 The striking opponent on the left has rocketed his punch into the opponent's face much like your black-belt did. The defender, how does he fare on that punch zooming in? The defender's hands? Is there work to do there?
Time = 0:19-0:20. Team female kata by those darn Japanese. How many motions do they perform within a second? Compared to tournament fighting, how precise are the techniques? Are they just marching like mindless robots, or is their a very high level of intent & self control over their physical moment? Would this prepare one for an aggressor / or just looking pretty?

Time = 0:23. That's you kicking the opponent in next year's tourney. His form is strong, accurate and precise. Again would he be effective against the barrel-inner...?
Time = 0:30. Striking competitor makes lunge in forward stance against side defending opponent. Is this structure represented in kata?
Time = 0:30. Split second later (same second) black-belt female competitors collide. Look at the intensity of the expression on their faces. Are they committed spiritually or just taking it easy? What kind of energy do they convey in their demeanor? What happened we'll never know 'cause it all took place within a split second. Notice how both re-chamber quickly. Any significance to that?
Time = 0:34-0:35. The kata "flip." Is this just some flashy performance art or does the kata competitor display command & control over his body & strength?

Time = 0:37. A fav. Japanese female competitor rushing in (aggressively) with alternating speed punches. Swiss female impressively gives ground, but fights back with counters for every inch. How's that for a defensive model? How does Swiss competitor maintain her composure so well? Other's flinch. She's on it; how to deal with aggression? How do you feel about the Swiss female's answer. Who do you think wins that exchange & why?
Time = 0:39-0:40. There's than darn performance art again. What is the mental demeanor of these contestants. How about No.'s 3 & 4, what do these guys signify?
Time = 0:43. There's that ole reverse punch right on the attackers noggin.' What's that say about an aggressor coming in, maybe with a level change for a take down? How's the defender behaving? Pretty intense if you ask me.

Time = 0:46-0:47. My fav. Aggressor comes in with kizami zuki, spot on, But. Gets smacked with defender's reverse punch counter really good before aggressor's follow on punch can connect and it's power diffused. Lesson there. Boxer's jabbing I say beware.
Time = 0:49. There's those darn Japanese kata females again. What's the significance of the techniques(me?)? Are the technique important to dealing with the bulldozer or is it her assertive mind & body strength?
Time = 0:56. White Female kumite competitor drills that reverse punch in there, then eases back... before Red Female competitor can get it really going. How'd White Female competitor train that;? drills, sparring, kata, kihon? Which? How?
Time = 1:00-1:01. Two male kumite competitors face off, hesitating, then go together with similar reverse punch. What else could have been done instead of sprinting for the striking finish line on GO!

These tournaments represent the finest the organization can muster. Some excel, some come in 2nd, some fall. Together, they set a standard and give purpose to our training objectives.

Aggressive opponents aren't really a problem, that's what I got, even though they're all over. It's the opponent - period - that's the problem. All in less than 1 minute.

P.S. Two more.
Time = 0:10. Bigger, heavier, female kumite aggressor is right in face of smaller defender. What happens?
Time = 0:13. Female kumite aggressor flies in with reverse punch, strikes too soon - hits air. What lesson here for aggressor & defender both?

Cool, some food for thought, cheers. I think some solid sparring drills will be needed to work on the unpredictable and aggressive opponent. See how we go

 

[ShotoNoob]

Cool, some food for thought, cheers. I think some solid sparring drills will be needed to work on the unpredictable and aggressive opponent. See how we go

Well, karate kumite how it is practiced today often looks to these kinds of drills. Which incidentally, I don't do. I jjust posted a sample of the JKA training Shotokan and it's headquarters, however, and they do incorporate what I will refer to as more sport oriented training. And practical too. Here's a sample.
2:32 / 3:41
Kumite Training Turkish female kumite team training
4,752 views

Sport / fitness and arts marteialle sport
Published on Nov 24, 2017

I'm sure Martial Talk posters can fault this kind of training, yet allow me to point out broad 2 benefits.

(1) The competitors are doing rounded conditioning, as opposed to heavy physical strength training. The karate moral is rounded physical fitness which maximizes the total ability for how the body can physically perform.

(2) The are practicing with partner's who also if you think smartly, are also human opponents. OTOH, the partner receiving the technique if you think smartly are also facing human opponents. The driller and partner both are accomplishing a number of principles in execution the drills this way. That is, they are not just physical moves, but multiple karate principles are being executed according to the foundations of the TMA model..

I prefer the traditional 1-steps.

Now should you go back to the Limmerick video, you will see examples of total human potential as TMA can better develop that, expressed in certain of the better competitors. It will be a range, a spectrum of accomplishment. Most karateka struggle to get past the physical - where the boxer shines. Those which express that mental intensity and translate that into perfect whole body technique, that is the dynamic karate striking which can crush a boxer. Or your aggressive, steamroller opponent.

Have fun with that.

 

[_Simon_]

Well, karate kumite how it is practiced today often looks to these kinds of drills. Which incidentally, I don't do. I jjust posted a sample of the JKA training Shotokan and it's headquarters, however, and they do incorporate what I will refer to as more sport oriented training. And practical too. Here's a sample.
2:32 / 3:41
Kumite Training Turkish female kumite team training
4,752 views

Sport / fitness and arts marteialle sport
Published on Nov 24, 2017

I'm sure Martial Talk posters can fault this kind of training, yet allow me to point out broad 2 benefits.

(1) The competitors are doing rounded conditioning, as opposed to heavy physical strength training. The karate moral is rounded physical fitness which maximizes the total ability for how the body can physically perform.

(2) The are practicing with partner's who also if you think smartly, are also human opponents. OTOH, the partner receiving the technique if you think smartly are also facing human opponents. The driller and partner both are accomplishing a number of principles in execution the drills this way. That is, they are not just physical moves, but multiple karate principles are being executed according to the foundations of the TMA model..

I prefer the traditional 1-steps.

Now should you go back to the Limmerick video, you will see examples of total human potential as TMA can better develop that, expressed in certain of the better competitors. It will be a range, a spectrum of accomplishment. Most karateka struggle to get past the physical - where the boxer shines. Those which express that mental intensity and translate that into perfect whole body technique, that is the dynamic karate striking which can crush a boxer. Or your aggressive, steamroller opponent.

Have fun with that.

I think certain drills have their place for sure. Kumite drills that have one person as the aggressor definitely are beneficial. I remember in Kyokushin we did this many years ago, one person just barrelling into you with punches and you have be quick on your feet, use angles and quick footwork to make sure you weren't pushed into the corner of the room. After getting used to it it became more natural how to move and to also move without being in a state of panic.

One-step and three-step sparring have their use too, but also have limitations. I like to glean what I can from each drill.

Even in the video I can see the benefit of those drills to develop certain characteristics and skills.

Am also a fan of developing the body, mind and spirit as a whole, but no harm in doing certain drills which emphasise certain ones . Even depending on your total outlook and intention, tournaments can even be a platform for developing across the board, although of course it has its own limitation. Just being realistic and honest about drills and what you understand or don't understand about drills helps growth immensely I've found too.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I think certain drills have their place for sure. Kumite drills that have one person as the aggressor definitely are beneficial. I remember in Kyokushin we did this many years ago, one person just barrelling into you with punches and you have be quick on your feet, use angles and quick footwork to make sure you weren't pushed into the corner of the room. After getting used to it it became more natural how to move and to also move without being in a state of panic.

One-step and three-step sparring have their use too, but also have limitations. I like to glean what I can from each drill.

Even in the video I can see the benefit of those drills to develop certain characteristics and skills.

Am also a fan of developing the body, mind and spirit as a whole, but no harm in doing certain drills which emphasise certain ones . Even depending on your total outlook and intention, tournaments can even be a platform for developing across the board, although of course it has its own limitation. Just being realistic and honest about drills and what you understand or don't understand about drills helps growth immensely I've found too.

The text I bolded in your post, this is precisely what the kumite competitors do conventionally now. I'll post a follow on video of the Turkey female kumite competitors in the WKF championships.

Keep doing what you are doing. That includes your open mind.

What I will be following, in the near term, is how well you address that flinch reaction. So I look forward to your continuing saga.

 

[ShotoNoob]

. Even depending on your total outlook and intention, tournaments can even be a platform for developing across the board, although of course it has its own limitation. Just being realistic and honest about drills and what you understand or don't understand about drills helps growth immensely I've found too.

Female Team Kumite SPAIN vs TURKEY (3/3). 2014 World Karate Championships. Bronze Medal
21,623 views

World Karate Federation
Published on Dec 31, 2015

Following along on your comment, this is limited contact point fighting, and is bounded & constrained by it's certain rule set. Presumably these competitors are all black-belt level, so well exposed to, well experienced in the traditional karate curriculum.

The Spanish gal is bigger, she has the size & strength advantage. Just like that black-belt competitor who barreled into you. How does the Turkey gal defeat that? With the base goal of the exercise: Perfect technique. That is defined as the faster technique w perfect form. The Spanish gal, championship level sport wise, she is just not @ the Spanish gal's level. That's Lesson One.

Lesson Two is that karate kumite competition is so about perfect technique, that the competitors lapse on the follow up. So we see the hard hitting counters like in the Limerick vid, and the vicious takeouts in the SA Regional Championship vid. The Spanish gal here nearly evens the match by using her size & strength advantage plus good follow on the exchange, to score the takedown / ippon. Very well done.

This is one of the big advantages karate kumite has over MMA the way they are scored, for martial arts I mean. With karate kumite, you can lose the entire match at any instant from one, single mistake. With MMA, we see these competitors battle each other for up to five rounds, binging & banging away, wrestling, rolling all over the place. The martial stakes are set much higher in karate kumite for the mental challenge, which is where it should be.

Finally on the flinch reflex. Look at how disciplined these gals are at maintaining their attention on each other as opponents, and throughout the entire match. Compared to MMA, kumite matches are much shorter. Nonetheless, the level of discipline in how they adjust and change in reponse to the movement of their opponent is comparatively very high relative to MMA. Flinching is at a minimum. Very little.

How did they attain that degree of composure? Good luck with that.

 

[_Simon_]

The text I bolded in your post, this is precisely what the kumite competitors do conventionally now. I'll post a follow on video of the Turkey female kumite competitors in the WKF championships.

Keep doing what you are doing. That includes your open mind.

What I will be following, in the near term, is how well you address that flinch reaction. So I look forward to your continuing saga.

Yeah will work on that, next tournament's probably next year, cheers.

Female Team Kumite SPAIN vs TURKEY (3/3). 2014 World Karate Championships. Bronze Medal
21,623 views

World Karate Federation
Published on Dec 31, 2015

Following along on your comment, this is limited contact point fighting, and is bounded & constrained by it's certain rule set. Presumably these competitors are all black-belt level, so well exposed to, well experienced in the traditional karate curriculum.

The Spanish gal is bigger, she has the size & strength advantage. Just like that black-belt competitor who barreled into you. How does the Turkey gal defeat that? With the base goal of the exercise: Perfect technique. That is defined as the faster technique w perfect form. The Spanish gal, championship level sport wise, she is just not @ the Spanish gal's level. That's Lesson One.

Lesson Two is that karate kumite competition is so about perfect technique, that the competitors lapse on the follow up. So we see the hard hitting counters like in the Limerick vid, and the vicious takeouts in the SA Regional Championship vid. The Spanish gal here nearly evens the match by using her size & strength advantage plus good follow on the exchange, to score the takedown / ippon. Very well done.

This is one of the big advantages karate kumite has over MMA the way they are scored, for martial arts I mean. With karate kumite, you can lose the entire match at any instant from one, single mistake. With MMA, we see these competitors battle each other for up to five rounds, binging & banging away, wrestling, rolling all over the place. The martial stakes are set much higher in karate kumite for the mental challenge, which is where it should be.

Finally on the flinch reflex. Look at how disciplined these gals are at maintaining their attention on each other as opponents, and throughout the entire match. Compared to MMA, kumite matches are much shorter. Nonetheless, the level of discipline in how they adjust and change in reponse to the movement of their opponent is comparatively very high relative to MMA. Flinching is at a minimum. Very little.

How did they attain that degree of composure? Good luck with that.

Cool match, yeah I liked the quickness, technique and footwork from the one from Turkey. And how she maintained her posture and centre.. much to work on! Cheers for posting

 

[_Simon_]

@JR 137!!! How did your Seido tournament go in October if you competed?? I didn't forget, just kept forgetting to ask [emoji14]

 

[JR 137]

Didn’t compete. Withdrew at the last minute due to back pain that got to the point that every time I hit anyone, my entire mid back would spasm up. Turns out I have a bulging disc in my thoracic spine (mid back). Really sucks. Haven’t been on the floor since the beginning of October.

Hopefully I’ll be back right after the new year. I just finished up a heavy dose of oral anti inflammatory meds. Hopefully my orthopedic surgeon friend was wrong and I won’t need an injection. I made an appointment to get it done in the middle of January, but I’m confident I’ll be able to cancel it at this point. Only time will tell.

 

[_Simon_]

Didn’t compete. Withdrew at the last minute due to back pain that got to the point that every time I hit anyone, my entire mid back would spasm up. Turns out I have a bulging disc in my thoracic spine (mid back). Really sucks. Haven’t been on the floor since the beginning of October.

Hopefully I’ll be back right after the new year. I just finished up a heavy dose of oral anti inflammatory meds. Hopefully my orthopedic surgeon friend was wrong and I won’t need an injection. I made an appointment to get it done in the middle of January, but I’m confident I’ll be able to cancel it at this point. Only time will tell.

Ah crap.. sorry to hear mate that's no good. Rest up and get better soon alright

 

[JR 137]

Ah crap.. sorry to hear mate that's no good. Rest up and get better soon alright

It’s all good. I feel about 95%. I honestly thought about going to class Monday night, but I just have this feeling that I’m going to do something stupid and set myself back again.

It’s been bothering me since the first week of September. I ignored it for a while and it just got progressively worse. I tested for 1st kyu the first week of October, and that night was awful pain-wise. Getting hit was fine, but every time I hit someone the whole right side of my back tightened up pretty bad. As the night went on it felt like it was tearing. After that night I figured taking a week or two off would do the trick. 6 weeks of doing nothing with 4 weeks of seeing a chiropractor 3 times a week, and there was honestly zero improvement. I got an MRI and found out I wasn’t just being soft

My friend who’s an orthopedic surgeon told me the only thing that’s going to really help is an injection. I told him I wanted to try some oral anti inflammatories first, so he wrote me a script, saying he doubts they’ll work at that point but might as well try while I’m waiting for the appointment for the injection.

Call me crazy, but I want to exhaust all other options before I have a guy stick me in the spine with a needle under X-Ray guidance. I’m not afraid of that, but I’d like to avoid it if at all possible. I just finished up the pills two days ago, and I honestly think I’m good. But I’m going to give it until after the new year to be on the safe side. If I end up back to where I started, I’ve still got the injection appointment in the middle of January.

But not training really, really sucks.

 

[dvcochran]

Didn’t compete. Withdrew at the last minute due to back pain that got to the point that every time I hit anyone, my entire mid back would spasm up. Turns out I have a bulging disc in my thoracic spine (mid back). Really sucks. Haven’t been on the floor since the beginning of October.

Hopefully I’ll be back right after the new year. I just finished up a heavy dose of oral anti inflammatory meds. Hopefully my orthopedic surgeon friend was wrong and I won’t need an injection. I made an appointment to get it done in the middle of January, but I’m confident I’ll be able to cancel it at this point. Only time will tell.

Sorry to hear this. Best wishes for recovery. I hope you have a good Ortho.
In 1990 I was in a long car chase that ended up with the assailant running off a bridge into a creek. He got out and bolted. I jump off the bridge onto the car (not very high), then off the car into the creek. What I didn't know was that the creek bed was one big slick rock. It was about 2 a.m. so I had my torch in one had and pistol in the other. When I landed on the rock both feet went up and I landed hard on my tailbone. Perp got away but was gut shot a month later. I hobbled around for about two months and finally gave up and seen an Ortho. I had ruptured L4. My Ortho gave me an epidural and with something that looked like a livestock syringe went in and drew fluid off the disc and it slipped back in. Don't know if that is how they still do it but my back gives me very little trouble other than letting me know when I am slouching, which I guess is a good thing.

 

[JR 137]

Sorry to hear this. Best wishes for recovery. I hope you have a good Ortho.
In 1990 I was in a long car chase that ended up with the assailant running off a bridge into a creek. He got out and bolted. I jump off the bridge onto the car (not very high), then off the car into the creek. What I didn't know was that the creek bed was one big slick rock. It was about 2 a.m. so I had my torch in one had and pistol in the other. When I landed on the rock both feet went up and I landed hard on my tailbone. Perp got away but was gut shot a month later. I hobbled around for about two months and finally gave up and seen an Ortho. I had ruptured L4. My Ortho gave me an epidural and with something that looked like a livestock syringe went in and drew fluid off the disc and it slipped back in. Don't know if that is how they still do it but my back gives me very little trouble other than letting me know when I am slouching, which I guess is a good thing.

I don’t think there’s any drawing fluid, but rather a shot of anti-inflammatory and pain drug. My friend is referring me to a colleague who’s a spine specialist. My friend is quite good, and by all accounts his colleague is quite good also. Hopefully I won’t have to get it done, but only time will tell. As of now I don’t think I’ll have to. I’m not canceling the appointment yet, because if I do it could take 4 weeks or so to reschedule. I’ll wait until I’m a week or so away.

 

[_Simon_]

It’s all good. I feel about 95%. I honestly thought about going to class Monday night, but I just have this feeling that I’m going to do something stupid and set myself back again.

It’s been bothering me since the first week of September. I ignored it for a while and it just got progressively worse. I tested for 1st kyu the first week of October, and that night was awful pain-wise. Getting hit was fine, but every time I hit someone the whole right side of my back tightened up pretty bad. As the night went on it felt like it was tearing. After that night I figured taking a week or two off would do the trick. 6 weeks of doing nothing with 4 weeks of seeing a chiropractor 3 times a week, and there was honestly zero improvement. I got an MRI and found out I wasn’t just being soft

My friend who’s an orthopedic surgeon told me the only thing that’s going to really help is an injection. I told him I wanted to try some oral anti inflammatories first, so he wrote me a script, saying he doubts they’ll work at that point but might as well try while I’m waiting for the appointment for the injection.

Call me crazy, but I want to exhaust all other options before I have a guy stick me in the spine with a needle under X-Ray guidance. I’m not afraid of that, but I’d like to avoid it if at all possible. I just finished up the pills two days ago, and I honestly think I’m good. But I’m going to give it until after the new year to be on the safe side. If I end up back to where I started, I’ve still got the injection appointment in the middle of January.

But not training really, really sucks.

Geez that sounds really rough... am glad you've found some relief with the anti-inflammatories. Yeah and good idea to wait until you're all better, nothing worse than pushing yourself too hard and being back at square one again.

And can empathize with the not training... I'm struggling with that too, but am understanding there's no rush, and best to get better first. Be patient with yourself and you'll be back in no time

 

[Yokozuna514]

Didn’t compete. Withdrew at the last minute due to back pain that got to the point that every time I hit anyone, my entire mid back would spasm up. Turns out I have a bulging disc in my thoracic spine (mid back). Really sucks. Haven’t been on the floor since the beginning of October.

Hopefully I’ll be back right after the new year. I just finished up a heavy dose of oral anti inflammatory meds. Hopefully my orthopedic surgeon friend was wrong and I won’t need an injection. I made an appointment to get it done in the middle of January, but I’m confident I’ll be able to cancel it at this point. Only time will tell.

Sorry to hear about the injury but glad to hear you are having it followed by someone. A few months of missed training are a drop in a bucket compared to a lifetime of study but I agree I hate stopping for any reason. Best wishes for a speedy recovery.

 

[CB Jones]

My friend who’s an orthopedic surgeon told me the only thing that’s going to really help is an injection. I told him I wanted to try some oral anti inflammatories first, so he wrote me a script, saying he doubts they’ll work at that point but might as well try while I’m waiting for the appointment for the injection.

Go get the shot.

I tried the same....every time it would start getting better I would tweak it again. After a couple months went and got the shot and just like that I was 100% within a few days

 

[JR 137]

Go get the shot.

I tried the same....every time it would start getting better I would tweak it again. After a couple months went and got the shot and just like that I was 100% within a few days

Yeah, that’s in the back of my mind.

 

[dvcochran]

I don’t think there’s any drawing fluid, but rather a shot of anti-inflammatory and pain drug. My friend is referring me to a colleague who’s a spine specialist. My friend is quite good, and by all accounts his colleague is quite good also. Hopefully I won’t have to get it done, but only time will tell. As of now I don’t think I’ll have to. I’m not canceling the appointment yet, because if I do it could take 4 weeks or so to reschedule. I’ll wait until I’m a week or so away.

I guess I don't remember the details but I do remember laying there on my stomach watching the ultra-sound and seeing that big *** needle go between the bones. I had a shot of happy juice so it was kind of funny watching it at the time.
Hope all goes well. The wait has to be a grind.

 

[Buka]

I don’t think there’s any drawing fluid, but rather a shot of anti-inflammatory and pain drug. My friend is referring me to a colleague who’s a spine specialist. My friend is quite good, and by all accounts his colleague is quite good also. Hopefully I won’t have to get it done, but only time will tell. As of now I don’t think I’ll have to. I’m not canceling the appointment yet, because if I do it could take 4 weeks or so to reschedule. I’ll wait until I’m a week or so away.

All good thoughts to you, JR.

 

[JR 137]

Thanks everyone.

@_Simon_
Sorry for distracting from your thread

 

[_Simon_]

Thanks everyone.

@_Simon_
Sorry for distracting from your thread

No no all good, I did ask!