Touched by an Angel?

[grumpywolfman]

Witnesses say he appeared at the scene of a Missouri car accident Sunday, anointed and prayed with the teenage victim and then vanished without a trace.

"Officials are still scratching their heads over the priest, who they say appeared out of nowhere. Perhaps more mysteriously, the local fire chief said he does not appear in any of 80 photos from the accident scene...We're looking for the priest and so far, no one has seen him. Whether it was a priest as an angel or an actual angel, he was an angel to all..."

Read the article at: foxnews

 

[Sukerkin]

:checks to see that it is indeed the 21st Century:

I am sorry, Grumpy, I know your belief is sincere but my disbelief is equally strong; stronger still is my sorrow that we as a species are still cleaving to this dangerous mythos of a Creator Deity.

If this is intended to spark a serious theological discussion, then all well and good, otherwise I don't feel that it is appropriate material to be presenting as 'fact' what is tantamount to the same thing as a UFO/alien/crop-circle sighting.

 

[billc]

Except for all the emergency personnel who actually interacted with the priest, who they all noted and said the prayer with...

I heard the account on a radio show...they couldn't get the metal of the car apart to free the woman. None of their tools were up to the job. She started praying out loud and some of the workers joined her...and the Priest appeared, he said a short prayer in front of all of these people, and told them that their tools would now work to free her...and another department...with better tools arrived on the scene...and he was gone...

One wonders how these things work...who was actually supposed to be impacted by the event...and how it will affect the wider world...

One of the news reporters on the radio station chastised the skeptical Richard Roeper by relaying that at the scene of the Twin Towers on 9/11 there were reports of mystery rescuers who appeared in places they shouldn't have been able to get to...helped the victims trapped...and then disappeared...

The event with the mysterious Priest...

http://hotair.com/archives/2013/08/08/the-freaky-triple-deaky-mystery-priest-miracle-post/

Reed’s team and emergency workers from several other jurisdictions tried for at least 45 minutes to remove the twisted metal from around Lentz. Various pieces of equipment broke and the team was running out of choices. A helicopter waited to carry Lentz to the nearest trauma center. Though Lentz appeared calm, talking about her church and her studies toward a dentistry degree, her vital signs were beginning to fail, Reed said…
That’s when Lentz asked if someone would pray with her and a voice said, “I will.”
The silver-haired priest in his 50s or 60s in black pants, black shirt and black collar with visible white insert stepped forward from nowhere. It struck Reed as odd because the street was blocked off 2 miles from the scene and no one from the nearby communities recognized him…
Everything happened quickly after that. Twenty emergency workers pulled together and sat the car upright, Churchill Lentz said. Katie Lentz’s vital signs improved and a rescue team from a neighboring community suddenly appeared with fresh equipment and tools. Lentz was removed and rushed to the hospital.
​

When they went to thank the priest, he was gone as mysteriously as he’d arrived — and according to Reed, among 69 photographs taken at the scene during the rescue, the priest doesn’t appear in a single one. Dude?
More from KHQA:

“He came up and approached the patient, and offered a prayer,” Reed said. “It was a Catholic priest who had anointing oil with him. A sense of calmness came over her, and it did us as well. I can’t be for certain how it was said, but myself and another firefighter, we very plainly heard that we should remain calm, that our tools would now work and that we would get her out of that vehicle.”
The Hannibal Fire Department showed up right after that prayer with fresh equipment and was able to finish the extrication. After getting Katie safely into the Air Evac helicopter, at least a dozen of the rescue workers turned around to thank the priest who was no where in sight. The highway had been blocked for a quarter of a mile during the hour and a half rescue, leaving no bystanders and no parked cars nearby. Lentz’ family and friends are amazed by the story.

​

And the big question for the Priest...

Imagine if you’re the mystery priest watching the buzz of excitement and wonderment from people who want to believe an angel was responsible. Do you come forward, or do you lie low to encourage it?

 

[Ken Morgan]

So much I really want to say.....
I guess it's a good thing the accident victim wasn't a choir boy....
So God does something about this, but lets that little two year old boy die of cancer?

 

[billc]

He does what he does...he tends to have a much larger view of the entire world than we do...we won't know why he does what he does until we die and can possibly ask him...if one believes in an after life, where there is no pain, or suffering for the innocent, for what we think may be eternity...hmmmm...

Here is a question which has probably been debated before...but what if our current existence on Earth is actually what we would call Hell...I mean...could a better place for punishment have been created by anyone?

Where the evil seem to succeed and the innocent have to struggle, often with great suffering and pain to defeat it...where that which is good for you is hard...and that which is bad for you is easy...

So God does something about this, but lets that little two year old boy die of cancer?

And other two year old boys are saved from cancer as well...everyday...and others are saved as well...and lost as well...

 

[billc]

Here is another thing, It is sometimes said we are created in God's image...so I find this saying somewhat odd...the one that goes "While Man makes plans, God laughs," or something to that effect. Now think of this saying as a parent of a child. Let's say you have a son or daughter and they have big dreams of doing something in their life. Let's say your son has the dream of playing in the NBA, loves Michael Jordan and practices at his little playschool basketball net all day long...and you as his parent realize, that because of his size, and you can tell he will never grow much past a certain height...that he will never play in the NBA and maybe not even in High School...as a parent...do you laugh as your child makes his plans...?

And this...as a believer in God...I don't have all if any of the answers to why things are the way they are...the same as everyone else, even atheists. All I know is that because I believe I am a little, I repeat, a little, happier about life. There is possibly something at the other end that may be promised if I am a good person and treat others as well as I can as a flawed human. Now an atheist...there is nothing at the end of this long suffering life...that is probably why they tend to be crabby a lot of the time...and why certain ones do some really unpleasant things...

Now...if I am wrong...I have spent life a little happier, and been nice to people I probably wouldn't have been nice to...if not done worse to, and I may do more things that are good than bad...or not. If I am wrong, when I die there will simply be nothing...I will cease to exist...so really, no net loss. In a way that might just be peaceful... I won't realize I was wrong and it won't matter. For an atheist...they will endure this world and suffer the whole time knowing that when their suffering is done...they also won't exist...they will have just been a little less happy the whole time they were alive?

Comments please...

 

[arnisador]

 

[Tgace]

:checks to see that it is indeed the 21st Century:

I am sorry, Grumpy, I know your belief is sincere but my disbelief is equally strong; stronger still is my sorrow that we as a species are still cleaving to this dangerous mythos of a Creator Deity.

If this is intended to spark a serious theological discussion, then all well and good, otherwise I don't feel that it is appropriate material to be presenting as 'fact' what is tantamount to the same thing as a UFO/alien/crop-circle sighting.

For all the "you are welcome to your beliefs" platitudes people like to spout they cant seem to resist their little roll eyes or their comments about how my beliefs are dangerous.

"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me." -Matthew 5:11

Of course the threat for modern Christians is no longer being fed to lions...but the embarrassment of belittling by our fellows.

I don't know what happened here...most likely a passing clergyman stopped to give aid. Photos don't catch everything at a scene and in the chaos of an accident people can come and go unnoticed quite easily.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

 

[Tgace]

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3725992

Father JamesMartin, a Jesuit priest and author ofMy Life withthe Saints, has a different theory.

"Most likely the priest will be identified, and people will be able to thank him," he told TheHuffington Post in an emailed message Thursday. "If he's not found, that may mean he wants to remain anonymous. Could it have been an angel? There are similar 'angelic' stories in the livesof the saints, when a figure inexplicably appears and cannot be located afterwards. There are angels, of course, but we tend to ascribe to angels anonymous acts that we find incredibly loving -- when in fact human beings do incredibly loving things in hidden ways every day."

People need to realize that many "believers" simply differentiate the "facts" of existence from the meaning of existence.


Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

 

[Sukerkin]

For all the "you are welcome to your beliefs" platitudes people like to spout they cant seem to resist their little roll eyes or their comments about how my beliefs are dangerous.

I'm fine as long as those with religious inclinations keep their thoughts and feelings to themselves. Leave me unmolested by them and I'll say nothing about your notions of creation.

Even here in the limited scope of these fora, you must see that? When do I comment on the (what is to me) insanity that is religion unless someone brings it up first? To be clear, sensitive as some of you may be about the subject, I find the whole concept an insult to our species and offensive in the extreme (and I don't care what religious flavour you are, I hold you all in the same light (tho' some faiths tend more to the Nutty end of the spectrum)).

Be satisfied that I am happy to leave you be on the subject, comfortable in your feelings on the matter - especially now, for as you can imagine my feelings about 'the religious' and their 'loving' god run very hot.

None of this means I think any the less of you (those that I speak with here) as people; indeed I hold some of you in high esteem. In just the same way as I am quite at peace with talking to those here of any political stripe (unless politics is the sole core of their being, for zealotry of any kind brings out my anti-bully intolerance) so it is with the religiously committed. At a personal level, I was touched and thankful for the good wishes and kind words that I received here from those of you of faith when my wife was ill and then passed away (I'm not one of those who will get all huffy if someone religious says they will pray for me, for you are showing your human concern in the way best known to you). I also got the same from the non-religious and the strongly anti-religious ... because good people are still good in their hearts even if I disagree with some of what they hold to be true.

So, back to my initial position. As with double-glazing salesman, who I am fine with as long as they don't knock on my door, just don't intrude proselytising (veiled or otherwise) into my life and I'll be quiet as a mouse on the matter of the non-existence of gods.

EDIT: Re-reading this, it sounds rather more confrontational than I wish it to. The feelings that I express are genuine and I don't want to just delete them, so please read them with a gentler tone than the words might 'sound' like on the surface.

 

[arnisador]

For all the "you are welcome to your beliefs" platitudes people like to spout they cant seem to resist their little roll eyes or their comments about how my beliefs are dangerous.

Well, religion has certainly caused a lot of problems. Witches are still being burnt by Christians in Africa to take just one example (and one religion). Yes, religious beliefs can be and have been very dangerous. Your people persecuted my people (scientists) quite heavily over the centuries--torture, death, shunning. You can ignore the parts of the Bible about owning slaves, killing your enemies except for the young girls, and so on and get a great philosophy out of the Golden Rule, turn the other cheek, etc. That's great--I'm all for that. But even if that's what you've excerpted from the larger religion of Christianity it does change the fundamentally hate-filled message of You will burn in Hell if you don't obey me.

"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me." -Matthew 5:11

Great idea for inculcating a cult-like mentality--claim that even when people say you're wrong it actually means you're right. When you're right you're right and when you're wrong you're right. Winning!

People can believe what they like. But religion is trying to force itself into laws and policy--on abortion, stem cell research, marriage equality, creationism, etc.--in too many places to ignore.

 

[billc]

You will burn in Hell if you don't obey me.

Yes, not killing your neighbor, not stealing, not taking your neighbors wife, not worshiping false gods who call for human sacrifice, not lying about your neighbor...yeah...those are real burdens for us to follow...

But religion is trying to force itself into laws and policy--on abortion, stem cell research, marriage equality, creationism, etc.--in too many places to ignore.

global warming and environmentalism as religion infiltrating public policy, killing unborn children because they are inconvenient, wanting to uphold traditional marriage as a valuable asset to society, using federal dollars for medical research for stem cell practices that don't work and get in the way of stem cell research that actually works all for the purpose of keeping killing inconvenient babies legal, as for creationism...as one theory...as good as the others...

Yeah, the non-religious have their problems as well...ask the 100 million victims of the atheists in the 20 century...after all, they were following science as well...

Great idea for inculcating a cult-like mentality

Have you looked at the public education system lately...talk about inculcating a cult like mentality...or a college campus in the liberal arts college...you won't find religion there but some of the craziness is...well...crazy...

Witches are still being burnt by Christians in Africa

Witches would be burning in Africa regardless of the religion...once they enter the modern era I have a feeling the witch burning will decrease...nothing like the mass murder of 100 million by those who believed in socialism...is it? And people actually still defend the ones who did that in Russia and China...and march in parades under the communist title...all without shame...or embarrassment...

 

[Sukerkin]

Is that the awesome sound of cherry picking and re-interpretation of events to fit a fixed world view I can hear :chuckles:?

Until such things can be properly debated rationally then I fear we are stuck with the status quo for a while yet - given the central plank of religious doctrine is to believe without proof then the whole thing is on a losing wicket as far as I am concerned. Far to much emotional rhetoric and charismatic-cultism for my ever to be comfortable with organisations having such doctrines getting their hands near the reins of power ever again.

Now I have said my piece, followed my conscience in not allowing such 'secret preaching of unfalsifiable ideas' to go unchallenged and shall go and watch We Were Soldiers ... a fabulous war movie about an inspiring leader who, ironically enough, happened to be a very religious man :lol:.

 

[aedrasteia]

And this...as a believer in God...I don't have all if any of the answers to why things are the way they are...the same as everyone else, even atheists. All I know is that because I believe I am a little, I repeat, a little, happier about life. There is possibly something at the other end that may be promised if I am a good person and treat others as well as I can as a flawed human. Now an atheist...there is nothing at the end of this long suffering life...that is probably why they tend to be crabby a lot of the time...and why certain ones do some really unpleasant things...

Now...if I am wrong...I have spent life a little happier, and been nice to people I probably wouldn't have been nice to...if not done worse to, and I may do more things that are good than bad...or not. If I am wrong, when I die there will simply be nothing...I will cease to exist...so really, no net loss. In a way that might just be peaceful... I won't realize I was wrong and it won't matter. For an atheist...they will endure this world and suffer the whole time knowing that when their suffering is done...they also won't exist...they will have just been a little less happy the whole time they were alive?

Comments please...

Interesting.

Billc offers A recapitulation/variation on 'Pascal's Wager'
(Blaise Pascal 1623 - 1662)
Wikipedia on Pascal and Jansenism (Christian theology) are not too bad.

Someone/something offered direct comfort and care for a threatened and frightened human
person.

_That_ response, whatever its source, is what holds my attention.

 

[billc]

At least with the witch burners in Africa...you can blame that on a primitive culture and a primitive understanding of religion...how do you explain the socialists, who didn't believe in God and were hostile to religion, but were modern men and women, educated in the most advanced Countries in the world...who killed millions, in modern nation states of the time...? So yes, religion has a history...long ago, of bad acts...they were done by humans after all, but socialism...which is supposed to be more sophisticated than the "superstition," of religion, and based in science...killed millions not more than 70 years ago...which is more problematic? Considering there are those who still want a big powerful government...kind of like the ones that went bad in the 1930's, 40's, 50' and 60's...

The secularists have a bit more explaining to do before they can cast their blame on religion for modern atrocities...

 

[elder999]

Witnesses say he appeared at the scene of a Missouri car accident Sunday, anointed and prayed with the teenage victim and then vanished without a trace.

"Officials are still scratching their heads over the priest, who they say appeared out of nowhere. Perhaps more mysteriously, the local fire chief said he does not appear in any of 80 photos from the accident scene...We're looking for the priest and so far, no one has seen him. Whether it was a priest as an angel or an actual angel, he was an angel to all..."

Read the article at: foxnews

"Whether he was a priest or an actual angel, he was an angel to all."

What remarkable treacle.

Seriously, an angel? The ones that God sends to destroy entire cities, that fight demons? The ones that-even when sent with "good tidings"-have to tell those they don't intend to destroy, "Be not afraid?" because they are so terrible and awesome to behold?

Or just a priest or minister-doing what, well, priests do?, and it being followed with a positive outcome that might have occurred without the priest?

Or, yeah, sure, "an angel."

The inexplicable-or apparently inexplicable-has always occurred, from time to time, throughout history.

What you believe in each instance, is really up to you.

Looking at it scientifically (facts, Sukerkin) what do we know?

There was an accident.

The emergency responders were unsuccessful in rescuing the victim, whose condition was worsening

She prayed, and asked them to pray with her.

Some of them did.

Someone showed up dressed as a priest, and prayed as well.

The rescuers say that the someone dressed as a priest said that their equipment would work.

Another company showed up with equipment that did work, and the accident victim was saved.

The someone dressed as a priest could not be found.

Those are the facts as presented-we can come up with all sorts of conjecture about what they mean-or derive meaning, or belief from them-but, as is the nature of faith or belief, we cannot know-indeed, some believers would say that we aren't meant to-that, to answer Bill's questions about "who was actually impacted by the event," and its implications (good questions, btw, Bill) we'll likely never know.

As for the priest, probably just a simple priest or minister-doing, as I said, what they do-and maybe he'll come forward, and maybe he won't. Maybe he'll be found-it's hard to believe that in this Internet age, someone under such circumstances could remain hidden for long: if he's actually a local minister or priest, the press will track him down by going from one church to the next, until they're out of state if they have to, just to prove that he wasn't an angel.

And if he was, well, what of it? If it didn't happen to you, it really shouldn't matter much to you, before this descends into an "evils of atheism/religion" discussion.

You can not disprove the existence of Sasquatch. If a person has seen-as thousands have- what they think to have been a Bigfoot (even if it was just a big smelly bear) you're not going to convince that person that they didn't.

You cannot disprove the existence of UFOs. If a person has seen-as thousands have-what they think to have been an "alien spacecraft" (even if it was just a bolide, or swamp gas, or a weather balloon) you're not going to convince that person that they didn't.

Likewise in this incident-for those who were there, anyway-and, just as an the case of UFOs and Sasquatch, thousands will believe whatever they chose to.

In the end, as the priest proves to be more and more elusive, and the facts around the case become more clear (the road was blocked 1/4 mile away, and it's a part of Missouri that's relatively flat and open-it sounds like the "priest" just "disappeared.) it's worth discussing possible explanations, and not at all worth discussing how positively awful those who believe another explanation are, simply because it doesn't agree with what you choose to believe-that is, after all, the path that leads to war and genocide, whichever side of the equation you're on.....

 

[Tgace]

And exactly how was subject of the original post "molesting" anyone? People at an accident scene report an unknown clergyman assisted at the scene. Whats the big religious harm in this particular instance??

Plus I find the whole idea of forum threads "molesting" someone with religious beliefs (bluntly) foolish. Here's a hint DON'T READ THEM. Commenting on them is more about the posters need to complain or comment on other peoples beliefs. Threads are NOT like someone proselytizing at your door. Threads are like YOU walking up to a conversation and inserting YOUR opinion. Which is fine and dandy but at least have some consistency between your words (Im fine with believers) and your deeds (having a need to comment negatively on any religious topic you can find).

The whole "you are welcome to your beliefs just don't express them" thing is kind of disturbing as well.

...that's my opinion on the subject.

 

[arnisador]

People at an accident scene report an unknown clergyman assisted at the scene. Whats the big religious harm in this particular instance??

The (small) harm is encouraging people to believe that they will be saved by prayer and angels rather than technology and emergency personnel in a car accident.

 

[Sukerkin]

TG, I like the analogy with which you state your position on my responses to religious threads (assuming you were directly addressing just me and not a wider audience?). To me, you see, whenever I read this screen, I am conversing with guests in my house and that means that I don't have to put up with things that I find offensive, even from people that I otherwise like and respect. Not reading the threads is not an acceptable answer any more than I can ignore someone talking in my earshot about something I find distasteful at a fundamental level.

You will likely think I don't have the right not to be offended - I disagree with you; not having to supinely submit to being offended is a basic human right in my book (it may be a cultural difference between us?). I know that cuts both ways, which is why I say that I am perfectly happy for you to believe what you want, just don't air views you know I find deeply offensive in my presence. If you do, unless it is an academic exploration of themes and concepts, then I will react. I don't see how that isn't coming across as consistent to you and I can't think of a simpler way to put across what I mean.

On matters of politics, I have over the years gotten to a point where I accede that I can do nothing to change peoples minds when those minds are made up. On matters of religion, however, I find the subject so repugnant that I have not yet reached a level of ennui where I can stay silent when it is raised. Maybe one year I can, when my conscience has withered through exposure to the evil of man to the point that I no longer care what has been done in the name of gods and I will stay quiet.

I don't think you understand just how deep my stance is on this - I don't just argue or point the wiggly-finger-of-lie-popping at religious threads because I want to have an argument or I take pleasure in upsetting people. I genuinely hold organised religion (and that is a distinction I am tired of having to make to those here who are otherwise my friends) to be the greatest evil humanity has spawned. It has caused more death, torture, hate and degradation than anything else and has held us back as a species for about two thousand years now. If you were to ask me what is the one thing that I hold the most strong negative opinion of, it would be religion by a huge margin.

On a personal level, by the lights and tenets that most of the Christian religious organisations follow and hold to be true, your loving god killed my wife; you can imagine how angry I would be and what I'd have to say to the fellow if he really existed and how little truck I would have with your defending him.

So the fact that I usually say nothing and am actually bothering to try and explain my position to you is something I'd like a little credit for .

As noted I have said my piece and have only responded again because I was directly addressed, so, for the sake of everyone's peace, I shall leave this thread alone now.

 

[Tgace]

The (small) harm is encouraging people to believe that they will be saved by prayer and angels rather than technology and emergency personnel in a car accident.

Ridiculous assertion. Did the EMS personnel at any time lay down their tools and let "god" get her out? Did the victim tell the EMS personnel to stop?

So if I get shot tomorrow and I pray does that mean I don't think the doctors will need to work on me?