Too early to cross train?

[luckiest]

Hello, I have read a bunch of threads on cross-training and the overall opinion seems to be "it depends", so I thought I'd see if anyone has any answers specific to my situation. Basically, the short version is I am looking for something more self-defency to supplement my sport martial art.

I am currently learning WTF tae kwon do and have been for a year - just went along with a friend and didn't really realise the WTF/ITF differences or anything. I previously did ITF tae kwon do for two years as a child (so a few years ago!) but I gave up at a reasonably high level because my family moved far away and nobody was willing to drive me, and I lazed out of it instead of pushing to figure out alternatives. I regret that a lot. I enjoyed my trials with my friend's club and decided to join, with the determination that this time I wouldn't quit.

From the trial I couldn't tell how sporty things were, I convinced myself it was all right, the instructors are all very good and the black belts have amazing technique and so much power and strength. I do feel like I am learning and being well-taught. However, they only do points sparring, and only at higher levels, and only do little memorised one-step defence routines, so I've basically done no fighting at all. I enjoy patterns but I don't think they are particularly functional.

I'm desperate to get better at defending myself if necessary, but at the same time I don't want to be a quitter again and leave WTF, so I'm considering taking up another martial art. The first one I'm thinking of is krav maga because apparently it focuses on real defence situations and is quite different to tae kwon do so I won't get confused. I would also like to learn capoeira, though that seems less functional, and maybe hapkido or jujitsu. (I also did judo for a brief period and found it quite different to tae kwon do. I went to a hapkido trial recently, without telling them I do tae kwon do, and while I had good strength and fitness, they had a lot to correct in my punches to make them hapkido-style, so I might get confused.)

Do you think one year (plus two years as a child) is okay for cross-training, if it's something quite different? If so, which different one should I pick? Or would I be better off quitting WTF and trying something completely new?

 

[Cyriacus]

If You really want to Cross-Train, the most pertinent thing is to have an established Base, first.
Enough said, really.

When You are at least comfortable with using what You have already learnt, then You can consider it. Until then, trying to learn too many things without being semi-proficient in at least one, will be harmful to getting actually good at a given one.
So, get good at what You already do. Then add to it.

I will admit a slight bias, in that I am against Cross Training. But, I dont expect others to share that view; My Advice is not biased

 

[ETinCYQX]

Also it's very possible your instructor has a good understanding of grappling and self defense moves. In NL where I teach we have an advanced curriculum above black belt that holds a lot of arm locks, throws, take downs, bone breaks etc. if I had a student express that desire to me I'd happily get into more applied self defense with him or her. The ten one steps we teach in NL is to lay the foundation for self defense.

 

[luckiest]

Unfortunately even at the senior levels when I have spoken to people and watched classes they don't do much grappling or sparring, hence my thought to move elsewhere.

I'm not really proficient in tae kwon do which is what I'm worried about, but three years isn't too short a time, in the sense a lot of the techniques seem second nature - probably because I was a child the first time.

I don't want to wait and get attacked in a couple of years and wish I'd started anything else sooner (then again, no proof it will help). I have been attacked once hence my focus on self-defence rather than a sport.

 

[jks9199]

It sounds like you need to find a school that offers you what you're after, rather than cross training, unless there are other things about this school that you really like or are locked hard into a contract. Now you know what to look for, and what to ask about.

 

[luckiest]

I have considered that, but I think my dilemma is I don't want to quit again. I really want to keep at something for longer and get better at it, I feel like I made a commitment and I should stick with it. Unfortunately I made that mental promise to myself before realising everything about the school and what I was after! I do enjoy it and it is a good school but it is very sport-focused.

I don't know if quitting for that reason is okay or if it's just making excuses. I really want to be better this time, but I don't feel I'm adequately learning to defend myself. Hence why I'm coming up with the cross-training idea. I don't know if it's worse to quit or worse to do two!

 

[ETinCYQX]

None of my students train the grappling techniques I mentioned, but I do when I visit my instructor's dojang.

Take the time to dissect the one step self defense moves, train them with a friend, practice them and see if you can figure out what makes them work. More often than not that's how you get the most out of one step scenarios like that.

Train and practice in your street clothes. Can you front kick a tall guy in the stomach with your everyday pants and shoes on? What about roundhouse kicks to the thigh? Easy enough? Good striking skills are great for self defense.

I would encourage a high level of understanding of Taekwondo before you cross train but at bare minimum, make sure you aren't stumbling through stances and your strikes are fluid and almost second nature. I train Judo in connection with Taekwondo as well as the HapKiDo style self defense our school offers. I was a high ranking tkd color belt when I started Judo.

 

[ballen0351]

Its not really quiting if you now have a better idea as to what you want. Its making an educated decision to move to something new thats better suited to you. I see no benefit in learning point style system if you never have a desire to spar. If you really like your school i suggest express your concerns with your teacher see if they have a soultion and if not move on. No harm no foul.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

Instead of cross-training, find a SD oriented TKD school. TKD self-defense applications are quite pragmatic and include, elbows, knees, takedowns, limb destruction, foot stomps, and a healthy reminder that while it's useful to be able to kick someone in the head it's not usually the best option. No matter what MA you take, take an actual self-defense course. It's not cross training, more of an outside perspective from people with real experience defending themselves. You need to learn situational awareness, de-escalating conflict and how to handle the adrenaline dump. Increasing your fitness level with supplementary workouts will also improve your chances of surviving an altercation. Hard sparring is good for getting used to taking hits and gives you a better impression of the effort it takes to keep a clear head under stress.

 

[jks9199]

I have considered that, but I think my dilemma is I don't want to quit again. I really want to keep at something for longer and get better at it, I feel like I made a commitment and I should stick with it. Unfortunately I made that mental promise to myself before realising everything about the school and what I was after! I do enjoy it and it is a good school but it is very sport-focused.

I don't know if quitting for that reason is okay or if it's just making excuses. I really want to be better this time, but I don't feel I'm adequately learning to defend myself. Hence why I'm coming up with the cross-training idea. I don't know if it's worse to quit or worse to do two!

Changing schools to find one that meets your needs and desires isn't quitting any more than going to a Chinese restaurant instead of an Italian restaurant is quitting eating.

 

[Madcity]

Hi Luckiest,

I asked an instructor at our academy about this same topic. I am currently learning MMA which I really enjoy because it is very self-defense focused. The Muay Thai moves we learn are very brutal (although we practice them safely), and I see BJJ as being a great thing to know since most non-MA fights I have witnessed end up on the ground.

Funny enough my curiosity about the subject related more to missing the “structured” aspects of a style like Tae Kwon Do because the school I started at years ago was focused on Tae Kwon Do / Freestyle Karate. While it did feel more like “sport” training at times, the exercises and skills we practiced had a big impact on my understanding of body mechanics and proper form & balance.

My current school focuses on different aspects and we do not really do many forms (katas) which I enjoyed at my original school because they were easy to practice on my own, without the need for additional equipment. At IMMA we practice sparring (non-sport) & grappeling, but once again this is something that is very hard to practice when you are not in class with partners. (My wife tends to shy away from volunteering to help me practice MMA for some reason

I just wanted to offer a different perspective on your situation since I have explored the option of cross training in Tae Kwon Do / Karate as a secondary martial art because this was my original style and I miss certain aspects of it. (Financially this is not an option at the moment though.) I also feel this would be beneficial for me because it would build on things I already know and force me to be more productive on nights I do not have MMA classes.

The instructor I asked about this had a great suggestion and mentioned that “workshops” are a great way to incorporate additional training if things like time, money, distance, commitment, etc are considerations/limitations about the type of cross training you would like to do.

I understand your feelings on this, but from the opposite side of the fence. I think everything has its place and that the solid technical foundation you are building now will probably lend itself well to any self defense training/styles you pursue in the future. But in the end I would say do what makes you happy. As with any art, the artist is his own harshest critic.

(Sorry for the rant, I have been putting a lot of thought into this same topic for myself.)

 

[oftheherd1]

Why are you worried about quiting if you are not, but rather moving to a different level (that is, new or different art)?

Find a style of MA you like, and go for it. There are people who say they train in lower belts of more than one style and it is OK for them. I'm happy for them. It may not work for everyone. In Korea, training in another MA isn't usually encouraged until one has acheived 3rd Dan in their primary art.

I don't encourage cross training, but some people seem to think it is good for them. As I said, find an art you like and have fun in it.

You mentioned different punching styles in the Hapkido you went to a trial class in. That would be a problem, but I am interested in what that was. Can you explain a little more about that?

 

[Instructor]

Why are you worried about quiting if you are not, but rather moving to a different level (that is, new or different art)?

Find a style of MA you like, and go for it. There are people who say they train in lower belts of more than one style and it is OK for them. I'm happy for them. It may not work for everyone. In Korea, training in another MA isn't usually encouraged until one has acheived 3rd Dan in their primary art.

I don't encourage cross training, but some people seem to think it is good for them. As I said, find an art you like and have fun in it.

You mentioned different punching styles in the Hapkido you went to a trial class in. That would be a problem, but I am interested in what that was. Can you explain a little more about that?

I am interested as well. To my knowledge Hapkido punching is very similer to Tae Kwon Do Punching. I mean real punching, not 'tapping' like in competitive sparring.

 

[luckiest]

The punching styles were a bit different because the hapkido guys moved their body with it and bent the opposite leg forwards and down. In tkd we mostly stand still, twist our hips and body but keep our feet planted. It's hard for me to explain, but when I did the hapkido trial I didn't mention doing tkd and the instructor corrected my leg and the way I was facing (both of which would have been ok in tkd) but didn't correct my friend, who has no martial arts experience. Maybe the style is the same and I just did it wrong, which suggests I might not be ready to cross-train - I'd be interested to hear from anyone who has done both and might know what I'm explaining.

I have another hapkido trial coming up so I'll see what happens there. Maybe if I find a school more suited I'll switch, but will probably have a cross-over period. There aren't any other tkd schools I'd be interested in nearby to be honest.

 

[Zenjael]

I would say as long as you can differentiate between styles, you are ready to branch out.

 

[MJS]

Hello, I have read a bunch of threads on cross-training and the overall opinion seems to be "it depends", so I thought I'd see if anyone has any answers specific to my situation. Basically, the short version is I am looking for something more self-defency to supplement my sport martial art.

I am currently learning WTF tae kwon do and have been for a year - just went along with a friend and didn't really realise the WTF/ITF differences or anything. I previously did ITF tae kwon do for two years as a child (so a few years ago!) but I gave up at a reasonably high level because my family moved far away and nobody was willing to drive me, and I lazed out of it instead of pushing to figure out alternatives. I regret that a lot. I enjoyed my trials with my friend's club and decided to join, with the determination that this time I wouldn't quit.

From the trial I couldn't tell how sporty things were, I convinced myself it was all right, the instructors are all very good and the black belts have amazing technique and so much power and strength. I do feel like I am learning and being well-taught. However, they only do points sparring, and only at higher levels, and only do little memorised one-step defence routines, so I've basically done no fighting at all. I enjoy patterns but I don't think they are particularly functional.

I'm desperate to get better at defending myself if necessary, but at the same time I don't want to be a quitter again and leave WTF, so I'm considering taking up another martial art. The first one I'm thinking of is krav maga because apparently it focuses on real defence situations and is quite different to tae kwon do so I won't get confused. I would also like to learn capoeira, though that seems less functional, and maybe hapkido or jujitsu. (I also did judo for a brief period and found it quite different to tae kwon do. I went to a hapkido trial recently, without telling them I do tae kwon do, and while I had good strength and fitness, they had a lot to correct in my punches to make them hapkido-style, so I might get confused.)

Do you think one year (plus two years as a child) is okay for cross-training, if it's something quite different? If so, which different one should I pick? Or would I be better off quitting WTF and trying something completely new?

One thing that you don't want to be, is a jack of all trades, master of none. There're some people around, that're like that. They jump from 1 art to the next, spending very short amounts of time, really not learning anything, then act as if they know what they're talking about, when in reality, they know nothing.

My suggestion would be to wait until you have a solid understanding of your base art, and then, take a look at something else. But IMO, you dont want to be doing 5 things at the same time, even if they're different. I find myself, seeing a bunch of different things, and having a desire to do them all, but I also understand that its just not practical.

Take your time. Sounds like you are really into training, which is certainly a good thing, but I wouldn't take on too much at once.

 

[gardawamtu1]

I agree with MJS for the most part. When I started training in Kenpo several years ago, I spent three years only in that art with a little bit of Kali at seminars.

After going to a couple of other schools after it closed, I found an academy that teaches several arts or styles: Wing Chun, JKD, Kali, BJJ, Muay Thai, and Silat. At first we focused on JKD and Kali, but since JKD has a "best of all styles" philosophy, we found that a little training In the other arts really helped certain aspects of JKD. We are now training in pretty much everything but Silat, but it works out fine because the instructors often relate the arts/concepts to one another. In Kali, for instance, we hear "this is like what we do in Wing Chun." in JKD, the instructors might point out the differences between pendulum round kick and a muay Thai round kick.

Overall I've found the advantages of cross-training to be:
1. Variety that keeps us interested.
2. Use of different muscle groups and mindsets that help vary our physical training. If we had a hard Muay Thai workout on Monday, for example, a lighter Kali workout is a nice change of pace.
3. The ability to see the strengths and weaknesses of different arts for training at different ranges and for different body types.
4. Our instructors' knowledge of different arts helps them explain new concepts using analogies from other arts. I.e., when our Sifu describes a concept in Wing Chun using principles or examples from Kali, it clicks because Kali seems to come more naturally to my wife and I.
5. With our hectic schedules it is easier to find a class to attend.
6. We can appreciate the different arts when we see them in competition or the media. We actually know what's going on when watching an MMA fight or a Muay Thai fight,for example.

Disadvantages:
1. We don't advance in one particular art as quickly (but we are not in it to advance in rank or become instructors)
2. If we had not trained in some things alone before, we might not have been able to get the same mind-body connection had we trained in several things at once right off the bat, especially since neither my wife nor I were athletes growing up.
3. We want to be there all the time (ok, well that could be an advantage, too).
4. Some things can become confusing--especially stance differences in JKD and MUay Thai.

 

[K-man]

I would say as long as you can differentiate between styles, you are ready to branch out.

Alex, there is an enormous amount of good information in the above posts. Yours is the first that contrary to the advice given and IMHO is just not right. In fact, from your posts elsewhere it would appear that the reason for your lack of understanding is that you have this strange idea that you can learn a style quickly and move on.

I happen to think cross training is very valuable but it should be complementary. Karate and Kung Fu do not go particularly well together, BJJ and Karate do. I train Aikido and Karate and find the combination great for a karateka. If I was training aikido as my primary style, karate would actually hinder my progress in aikido.

luckiest, it seems that you have found some shortcomings in the TKD you are currently training. It may be time to change and the Hapkido you are looking at sounds good to me. You will find your previous training useful in any new style so don't think of it as quitting. But, I think you have to make a choice. At this time I would suggest one or the other, not both. Once you have a really good grounding in one style, then look for cross training to make your main style even more effective. .:asian:

 

[Zenjael]

Thank you K-man, but the ability to differentiate between WTF style kicks and ITF are not difficult. He'd be making the same transition I did from WTF to ITF. I was able to learn both systems at the age of 14, and perform both separately, on command, I believe this individual can do the same. Now, if he were transitioning from say WTF tkd to hapkido, I might ask further his background. The fact he can tell you he does a 'style' of TKD alone, at least in this area, warrants some attention and worth on his part as a practitioner of the korean kicking style. You would be amazed how many do not even know which style, in WTF they are using, save Moo Duk Kwan, and Chung Do Kwan, and so forth.

 

[MJS]

Hmm...IMO, if someone is going to cross train, I view that as a different art altogether. In other words, if you're already doing 1 style of TKD, why go to another? IMO, it'd make more sense to train in another art that complements your base. IE: Kenpo and BJJ. You have a stand up art, which deals with weapons, grabs, kicks, etc, and a ground based art. To train in Parker Kenpo and then cross train in Tracy Kenpo...well, it doesnt make sense.