P
ProfessorKenpo
Guest
Thanks
Have a great Kenpo day
Clyde
To Clyde
- Thread starter Jagdish
- Start date
Thanks
Have a great Kenpo day
Clyde
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2002
- Messages
- 8,069
- Reaction score
- 25
Bear in mind, Bruce Lee and Mr. parker spent a signifigant amount of time together, with Mr. Lee oftern staying in Mr. Parker's home. There are bound to be commonalities.
P
ProfessorKenpo
Guest
I know exactly what I heard, and from who, and I do teach the AK curriculum, and have for many years. I don't know why he made the comment he did, but he is well known in the original nucleus of JKD and studied directly with Bruce. I would suggest a little more research on your part before making any statements.
Have a great Kenpo day
Clyde
satans.barber
Master Black Belt
Sooooo, if Bruce Lee and SGM Parker were to have fought, who do you think would have won and why (anyone)? Hmm, maybe this is another thread...
Ian.
(go on, indulge me, I love Celebrity Death Matches...!
)
Originally posted by satans.barber
Sooooo, if Bruce Lee and SGM Parker were to have fought, who do you think would have won and why (anyone)? Hmm, maybe this is another thread...
Ian.
(go on, indulge me, I love Celebrity Death Matches...!
satans.barber:
This question was addressed in Memories of Ed Parker by a 3rd party. If the mods move this thread or you start a new one I'll post a reply there.
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2002
- Messages
- 8,069
- Reaction score
- 25
Doug is correct, if you wish to pursue this thought process, please start a new thread, preferably in the Locker Room.Originally posted by satans.barber
Sooooo, if Bruce Lee and SGM Parker were to have fought, who do you think would have won and why (anyone)? Hmm, maybe this is another thread...
Ian.
(go on, indulge me, I love Celebrity Death Matches...!
- Thread Starter
- #27
DOC:
What about BIL GEE,Straight Blast, etc.
I think there is physical techinques in JKD and actual framework and Structure but it was not weel taught.
Bruce used to say "Why should anyone to beat me?" :wink2:
HMMMM: Very chinese thinking!
Yours ,
Jagdish
Doc
Senior Master
I'm really sorry sir, but I never seem to understand what it is you're trying to say. Sorry. Perhaps someone else can answer you.
Doc
Senior Master
Originally posted by Michael Billings
Interesting post! I understand and agree with your "definitions" and conceptual framework, but I did not quite get the:
Any System's Instructors make their "own worst ... and own best teachers." How could it be otherwise?
-MB
Well of course youre right, but I come from an era where there were good teachers, better teachers, and great teachers. There were really no bad teachers because of what was required to actually become a teacher and the non-commercial nature of the arts available at the time.
Instructors were purists who only took students they wanted and taught for the love of the art, and usually had another business or job. My first teacher did acupuncture and herbal medicine. Tom Naguchi from Shotokan delivered milk for the LA School District. Sea Oh Choi in 64 opened the first Hapkido School in the US but sold real estate during the day. All schools were dark during the day and only opened when the instructor got off work.
The Tracys had a tremendous breakthrough and hand in creating an industry when they created the commercial martial art school and ushered in the professional martial arts teacher. As such, Kenpo as most know it, was conceived to be a commercial vehicle specifically designed to impart limited personal survival skills and knowledge.
The majority of those few who move through the ranks to black, remain at that commercial level of knowledge with rare exception because of even rarer good teachers. It is also why some of these same instructors are so vehement in defending their position, only to in some cases quietly later seek outside study to improve their knowledge and skills not covered in their study. Many even change arts taking their kenpo ranks with them. I don't think anyone would argue with the fact that kenpo has waaay too many 5ths and up (master) ranks due to the commercial nature of the vehicle.
Doc
Senior Master
Although some misunderstand what I mean when I say "motion," it is not to be confused with "movement." All physical activities "move." It is "how" that movement is imparted and taught. Most in American Kenpo use Ed Parker's "motion concept" as a base of their instruction as he dictated. That concept was created specifically to ficillitate flexibility for instructors and students alike, the majority of which he saw rarely. The art was intentionally conceptual in nature for that reason. Specifics require specific instruction overseen by a knowledgeabe source on a regular basis, and constant correction.
Sublevel Four Kenpo is my interpretation as taught to me by Ed Parker. To use a sports analogy, it is more like professional football, basketball, or any high level physical activity. That is it is anatomically based.
A football coach will teach you the one way to attack the blocking sled based on known body mechanics and proper movement. In professional sports results are important, but maximum results are everything. Whatever the activity coaches over the years have determined and proven the one way to optimize physical skills for maximum results, with no room for artistic personal preference. You come out of the blocks because we already know the best way to do it, now you have to learn it. This is teaching from an "anatomical efficient" perspective and strict human anatomy dictates all movement. SubLevel Four is "anatomically based' and is easily demonstrated. An articel on the subject was presented to MartialTalk. If they do ot use it I will post it here.
Wes Idol
Green Belt
Ian,
People who were there, Mike Pick being one of them, recalled Parker moving Lee around with ease. In fact, there is a sweep at the end of one of our Brown Belt Techniques that Parker used on Lee....from what has been shared with me, it was a nasty fall.
Respectfully,
WI, HI
UKS
- Thread Starter
- #33
Sir:
I beg your pardon if i did not express myself clearly. Actually i made a double post and i think you only red the last one.
What i was trying to say is that your are asserting that there are no techiques per se in JKD. However, there are like the bil gee, straight blast, pak sao, lopsao,etc.
Interpretation comes when some things have been left out, which happened in JKD. It is the result of the traditional chinese mentality Bruce Lee had. He's attitude was "Why should i teach someone to beat me?"
The fact is that there are only few ways of doing things right and trying to interpret could lead to wrong ways and results.
I hope this time is clear, and sorry again.
I must add that i really appreciate and enjoy your opinions & posts.
Yours,
Jagdish:asian:
C
CoolKempoDude
Guest
have 3 questions for you
1-Did somebody tell you about Bruce lee's staying in Parker's house or you DID actually WITNESS this happened?
2-If somebody stay in your house and it doesn't matter if they study american kenpo or another style, they will *move* like you ?????
3- "There are bound to be commonalities". Can you tell me the "commonalities" which JKD and AK SHARE???
thank you
C
CoolKempoDude
Guest
have a few comments
1- I can't really tell whether you teach the AK curriculum or not. I guess you ONLY know that. No implication
2-If *he* is well known in JKD and studied with Bruce Lee, i'm not really suprised because Bruce Lee had many students while he still was alive
3-I'm really suprised when he told you about your JKD teaching. Perhaps, he didn't know that he was in AK session NOT JKD session ?????
4- it is certainly beyond my understand when he made such comment during an AK session. It is like he orders a cheese burger with COKE in DMV office ????
Perhaps, somebody tells *him* to order a cheese burger at Macdonal or fast food restaurant NOT DMV office? OR he sees the sign "you can place your cheese burger with COKE at DMV office. We don't cook it until you order it" in DMV office
No bad feeling
C
CoolKempoDude
Guest
please let me know what you FIND out too because i want to know what my IP address is. Thank you
kenpo_cory
Purple Belt
I have an old article that you wrote, hope you don't mind that I posted it. I got this from my instructor who used it once upon a time in his online martial arts magazine.
Kenpo Sub-Level Four
By Ron Chapél, Ph.D.
To start off let me assume because this is a selective media, most of you have a fair working knowledge of the martial arts. Unfortunately, few have a significant handle on the nature and substance of "American Kenpo." So let me digress for just a moment and share with you a fairly definitive description of the "parent" of all American Kenpo.
Ed Parker's American Kenpo is not a style of the martial arts. It is a system of learning that has a codified curriculum of time and order specific material and constituent concepts, principles, and vocabulary designed to acquaint or provide you with a base of knowledge to ultimately allow you to create your own style.
Mr. Parker's system is a ninety-five percent conceptual product of the mind of Ed Parker and is only superficially related to his previous training under Professor Kwai Sun Chow. This distinction is important because it removes those who have never studied directly with Ed Parker to a position that would make any rational criticism of his art at best superficial and uninformed. This fact also holds true for some who have studied with Mr. Parker.
Indeed, if one has read and understood all of Mr. Parker's books they would only have scratched the surface of the depth of this man's thought process. In fact, most who studied with him were taught what I choose to call the "commercial system." This "commercial" system was and is in itself rather extensive and extremely demanding on its practitioners both physically and intellectually.
Before you kenpo practitioners gather a lynch mob, consider this within its historical context. It is historically accepted that all martial arts spring from the Chinese Arts. The Chinese Arts were all inclusive encompassing all manner of striking, grappling, breathing, healing, religion, exercise, and more.
As the arts spread throughout the world, different countries attempted to claim the arts as their own for various nationalistic reasons. As this occurred these entities seemed to choose one or two particular aspect of the Chinese Arts they wanted to specialize in performing.
The Koreans chose the more dramatic and spectacular kicking and minored in joint locks. The Okinawan's expressed an interest in Chinese deep breathing techniques and to a lesser extent, nerve strikes. As the migration continued a different phenomenon started to take place. The host countries in exporting their already limited art forms chose to water them down again to mass consumption "sport arts" and of course for secrecy. Jiu-Jitsu became the sport Judo. The Okinawan's nerve strike system became "sport art" Japanese shotokan. Countries even created sport arts within their own borders. From Hapkido and Tang Soo Do comes Tae Kwon Do. So you see my case for a watered down "commercial" Ed Parker System for mass appeal can be easily made.
This is not a criticism. I personally believe that the best of Ed Parker's System does not lend itself well to the commercial market. Other more abstract, superficial, "jump high - punch hard" styles are indeed made for the commercial market, and their success is not surprising. Limited intellect, maximum sweat. What could be easier ? Anyone who has read Mr. Parker's latest books would recognize immediately how much the possession of a college education would enhance ones ability to grasp some very intellectually demanding material. And just think, this is the superficial art !
One of the unique things about Ed Parker's American Kenpo is its advocacy of the principle of TAILORING. Tailoring has allowed thousands of kenpoists throughout the world to interpret and practice this innovative system without fear of invalidation by anyone. However, this also brought the system in most instances down to its lowest common denominator. This practice allowed the art to be taught and allowed practitioners to train at whatever level they were capable of, or chose to study. Mr. Parker felt everyone should be graded on the basis of his ability and educational background. This is what accounts for the wide disparity in kenpo practitioner's skill and knowledge.
Mr. Parker felt that physical principles and sound concepts of motion form your basic knowledge and that any exploration that uses these guidelines couldn't be wrong. He encouraged all of his students to study his system and its principles, to interpret them, that is, TAILOR them and create their own style.
From this perspective, there is no absolute "right" way to perform kenpo. Granted there are errors in kenpo, but these are errors of physics and body mechanics. They are not errors because some higher authority declares them to be errors. Indeed one of Mr. Parker's greatest contributions to the martial arts and to learning was to liberate the martial arts from the age of superstition and heresy. With Mr. Parker, anything was valid if it conformed to sound physical principles.
But Mr. Parker limited most of his teaching to "superficial commercial" material. Remember, these are my words, and understand I'm speaking as someone who along with Ed Parker Jr. was exposed to the "higher" level of Mr. Parker's art. Ed Parker's System, even on a superficial commercial level is devastating, complex, and extremely demanding. The martial arts community short of seeing the Master in his physical intellectual equinox has rarely seen Mr. Parker's higher level of kenpo. Many of us as students of Mr. Parker have definitely felt the higher levels of kenpo. But most could not duplicate Mr. Parker's results because Mr. Parker kept a tremendous amount of knowledge to himself.
Sub-Level FOUR©, What is it ?
Sub-Level 4© derives its name from the 4 distances in combat outlined in Ed Parker's Infinite Insights Textbooks. Knowledgeable individuals will immediately recognize Distance 4 is CONTACT MANIPULATION. (Distance 1 -- out of range; Distance 2 -- within range; Distance 3 -- contact penetration; Distance 4 contact manipulation). Nevertheless, the skilled kenpoist can enhance his prowess by learning a sub category of Distance 4 (hence the term sub-level 4©). This sub category is CONTROL MANIPULATION or SUB-LEVEL FOUR©.
Sub-Level 4© (Control Manipulation) is a series of finite principles working in consort with each other to produce what Mr. Parker called, "The ultimate aim of the advanced kenpo practitioner...To so completely dominate your opponent as to significantly control his bodily actions, over and above his control and while doing so, have complete mastery of the level of destruction of the circumstance." Although Mr. Parker rarely spoke publicly in any detail about the use of control releases, locks, or nerve activation's, these are an integral part of his system .
To validate this relationship I suggest you examine Volume # 3 of Ed Parker's Infinite Insights. At the end of chapter 2 on page 4 you'll find the organizational chart of the basics of the system broken down into 5 basic categories. The fifth and least known is Specialized Moves and Methods. On page # 174 is the categorical breakdown of Specialized Moves within Specialized Moves. You'll notice among the listings are joint locks, twist, throws, and others.
I think it is important to elaborate briefly on the sub category "other" that was referred to above. These techniques refer to the nervous system disruption activation's that Mr. Parker rarely discussed. To reach these levels of execution, the techniques must be brought back to a specific sequential methodology with subsequent constituent principles and concepts that will ultimately allow the practitioner to transcend into the advanced level of American Kenpo. Interestingly enough, when the self defense techniques are executed under the previously described guidelines, the nerve activation's to knowledgeable people are quite evident. However, method of execution, timing, and circumstance play a major role in nerve and pressure point activation's, and just "knowing" the technique is not enough.
Sub-Level 4© integrates Cavity Presses and activation's commonly referred to as "nerve strikes." To verify Mr. Parker's practice of nervous system disruptions, examine archive pictures of Mr. Parker performing any technique that requires grabbing of the limbs, and you will notice his use of his finger tips to activate heart, lung, and other nerves on the associated meridians. He almost never explained these actions.
Overall, Kenpo practitioners who study the Sub-Level 4© material will be challenged. Even though there may be many "tailored" ways to perform a base kenpo technique, and even though those techniques are not wrong, they may not allow for a successful application of Sub-Level 4©. In order to achieve Sub-Level 4© mastery, the kenpo practitioner must master the particular sequential flow for the technique outlined in the Phase One manuals. All of these things can be executed within the sequential flow of the technique, or can be removed from the base and executed singularly and independent of other movements. It literally allows many more options within the technique sequence and moves the practitioner from "Contact Manipulation" to the supreme level of "Control Manipulation."
Ed Parker Jr. and I are the only ones to have worked on and studied this material for many years under the tutelage of Ed Parker, Sr. and have continued after his death. This and subsequent writings are dedicated to the spirit of continuous learning and questioning that Mr. Parker gave to all of us in Kenpo, and in no way is meant to demean or suggest that someone else's interpretations of kenpo is wrong.
In part two we'll discuss the Sub-Level FOUR© Jiu-Jitsu connection, delve into a little Chin-Na and explore some basic vocabulary, as well as breakdown some techniques.
Your Brother in Kenpo and the Arts,
Ron Chapél
Executive Director,
Ed Parker Institute Los Angeles: 213-506-1027 or 213-935-7853
satans.barber
Master Black Belt
Under XP or 2k:
start -> run -> 'cmd' -> 'ipconfig'
Ian.
J
jeffkyle
Guest
satans.barber
Master Black Belt
If you're sat at your gateway, yes, else, no.
Ian.
Similar threads
Latest Discussions
-
-
-
-
-
Aging, health issues and Martial Arts. - Martial Journal- Latest: Kung Fu Wang