TN Cop needs to see drivers license.

[Bob Hubbard]

Activist group are doing air quality monitoring. Within minutes of arrival, TN cops arrive and begin investigating things.
Not interested in that, it's the nature of the cigar cop's actions that concern me.
Another cop on the scene states that they (the activists) did nothing wrong.

Tennessee cop needs to see his drivers license, "Now".
Catch 1 - He's not driving.
Catch 2 - He supplied the cop with a US passport with photo.

Timeline : 2:00 - 3:45

At 3:45 the "cop" then assaults the person by reaching out and covering the camera with his hand, without warning.

[yt]frr-e8C5k6Y[/yt]

This is of course heavily edited footage, so I'm taking it with a bit of salt.

Concerns:
1- Isn't a valid US Passport valid ID?
2- Shouldn't law enforcement know this, and be familiar with them?
3- IF I'm not driving a vehicle, why should I give you a photo ID, much less a drivers license?
4- If I hand you a Federal ID, isn't that sufficient?
5- Since it is legal to photograph and video cops as long as the act is not interfering with the officers performance of his duty, was the grab of the camera correct?

Reading links on the groups website they appear to have had several run ins with the local cops, who it sounds like are paid by the company refusing to do cleanup work, not by public funds. I may be wrong on that part.

 

[Xinglu]

Concerns:
1- Isn't a valid US Passport valid ID?
2- Shouldn't law enforcement know this, and be familiar with them?
3- IF I'm not driving a vehicle, why should I give you a photo ID, much less a drivers license?
4- If I hand you a Federal ID, isn't that sufficient?
5- Since it is legal to photograph and video cops as long as the act is not interfering with the officers performance of his duty, was the grab of the camera correct?

1. It is my understand that it is a valid form of ID.
2. Yes.
3. Showing ID can be a reasonable request for an officer doing an investigation. However, refusing one form of valid ID and demanding a DL when you are not driving does seem out of sorts to me.
4. One would think so.
5. I really don't think the grabbing of the camera was appropriate.

 

[Archangel M]

While the passport would have been enough for me, why be such a dick about showing the DL? He said he had one. Apparently he just wanted to be a dick. Or he was hoping to get a cop riled up so he could catch it on camera.

I wouldn't have made such a scene if I were there I must admit. Unless I didn't think the passport was authentic or had been altered. Ask one of the other people there what the guy's name was and see if it matches. Run his name to see if he has a license. There are usually ways to verify the ID if you make the effort.

That nasally whiny voice thing though...whats up with that? For some reason that always irritates me too.

 

[Archangel M]

From my point of view:

-This guy just handed me a passport. Hmmm. OK that's unusual, Ive only had that happen 4-5 times in my career.

-The guy says he has a drivers license on him.

-He refuses to let me see the license. WTF? He had no problem giving me this passport. Is this passport fake? Does his DL not match? Whats the big deal about letting me see the passport but NOT the license?

While I would definitely do some digging on this guys identification I really don't have cause to FORCE him to give up that license yet. But my radar is going off.

Another thing people have to consider. The video states that they were on the property owners land with his permission. That's all well and good, but AT THE TIME what did the police have? You don't typically get dispatched to "respond to the property owners residence and harass the people there". What were they dispatched to? What was the info they had to go on at the time?

 

[jks9199]

While the passport would have been enough for me, why be such a dick about showing the DL? He said he had one. Apparently he just wanted to be a dick. Or he was hoping to get a cop riled up so he could catch it on camera.

I wouldn't have made such a scene if I were there I must admit. Unless I didn't think the passport was authentic or had been altered. Ask one of the other people there what the guy's name was and see if it matches. Run his name to see if he has a license. There are usually ways to verify the ID if you make the effort.

That nasally whiny voice thing though...whats up with that? For some reason that always irritates me too.

The guy wanted to get a reaction and response. But... a passport isn't automatically valid; it could be expired, the photo could be so old that it's worthless as ID (should someone accept the passport obtained for me when I was an infant as valid ID for me today, multiple decades later?) or just not a close enough match for the cop... Or it's just a lot easier to run a DL query than name/DOB. Passports don't include all the same information as a driver's license, and I'll often ask for them simply because I can copy the address down... saving several minutes of "OK, and how do you spell that?"

I don't know why the deputy was insisting on a driver's license. But there were two involved in the tango... What was the issue with not providing the driver's license?

 

[jks9199]

From my point of view:

-This guy just handed me a passport. Hmmm. OK that's unusual, Ive only had that happen 4-5 times in my career.

-The guy says he has a drivers license on him.

-He refuses to let me see the license. WTF? He had no problem giving me this passport. Is this passport fake? Does his DL not match? Whats the big deal about letting me see the passport but NOT the license?

While I would definitely do some digging on this guys identification I really don't have cause to FORCE him to give up that license yet. But my radar is going off.

Another thing people have to consider. The video states that they were on the property owners land with his permission. That's all well and good, but AT THE TIME what did the police have? You don't typically get dispatched to "respond to the property owners residence and harass the people there". What were they dispatched to? What was the info they had to go on at the time?

Well, I've received them more often than that... though it's probably a function of where I live & work. But it's not routine for a US citizen within the US to be carrying their passport. Generally, when it's what they present, there's a reason they don't want me to see the driver's license... The guy certainly wouldn't have left as long as I had grounds to hold him until I figured out what was up...

 

[Ken Morgan]

In all dealings with the police, (or anyone in authority), you can give them only the minimum cooperation and be indifferent to them as people, in essence being a turd, (its not illegal and you are within your rights), but it sets off their radar and a 10 minute dealing suddenly becomes an hour long hassle for everyone.

Or you can make it easy on everyone and do as is requested, even though yes you do not have to, but you’re done in 10 minutes.

Believe me, my libertarian views scream at giving government representatives too much information, but my time is valuable to me!

When I deal with the police, the border guys, even the lady at the ministry of transportation I try to chat, be friendly, because these guys have families, and are just doing a job. They deal mostly with the people most of us don’t ever want to deal with, for that alone they deserve our respect.

The guys in the video were the type who just wanted to show the evil, fascist cops on camera and brag in their blogs and to their buddies later at the bar how they stood up to the man.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

My question is this, if I have a drivers license on me, when am I -required- to present that to LEO, and when is is simply convenient? Obviously if I'm operating a vehicle on a public road I have to. But if I'm driving a car on private property neither I nor the vehicle need a license.

Also, if I don't have a government issued photo ID (and some people don't) then what do you do?

Can I See Some ID?
During a street encounter, police may request to see your ID. While there are no state laws requiring citizens to carry ID of any kind, many states require you to identify yourself if police have reasonable suspicion to believe you're you're involved in criminal activity.
But how would you know if an officer asking you do identify yourself has reasonable suspicion? Remember, police need reasonable suspicion to detain you. One way to tell if they have reasonable suspicion is to determine if you're free to go. You may do this by asking "Officer, are you detaining me, or am I free to go?" Repeat, if necessary.
If the officer says you’re free to go, leave immediately and refrain from answering any additional questions.
If you're detained, you'll have to decide whether withholding your identity is worth the possibility of arrest or a prolonged detention. For example, in cases of mistaken identity, revealing who you are might help to resolve the situation quickly. Knowing your state's laws can help you make the best choice.
(See "When do I have to show police ID?")

When do I have to show police my ID?

Submitted by Steve Silverman on Sun, 02/22/2009 - 20:11 This is a tricky issue. As a general principle, citizens who are minding their own business are not obligated to "show their papers" to police. In fact, there is no law requiring citizens to carry identification of any kind.
Nonetheless, carrying an ID is generally required if you’re driving a vehicle or a passenger on a commercial airline. These requirements have been upheld on the premise that individuals who prefer not to carry ID can choose not to drive or fly.

http://flexyourrights.org/faq/When_do_I_have_to_show_ID

Answerbag has some interesting replies. Most are wrong.
http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/389764

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread305175/pg1 also has various interesting comments, and cites some USSC cases.


Now all that said, if a cop asked me for ID in a situation that I felt was optional, and IF (big conditional here) I felt I could do this without ending up sparkly, spitting chicklets or getting something dislocated, I would ask why he needed to see it and if he knew the specific law that mandated I show it. I would of course ask in a conversational and not confrontational manner. I'd also probably comply as 5 minutes to show vs 24 hrs in the slammer, well, y'all know I have withdrawal issues being offline that long.

I have when I encountered cops in public asked them somewhat weird questions. 2 cases in point were "where can I shoot outdoor nudes and not cause a problem" and "who has the right of way, a cop, a fire truck or an ambulance". I also usually hand them a MartialTalk business card and point them here.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Also, Border crossings and Air travel run under different rules, and it's been ruled that those cops do NOT need cause to demand ID.

 

[jks9199]

When do you have to present a driver's license specifically?

Generally, only when you're driving. If I ask for it for convenience, my personal habit is to explain why; I usually say something like "Just to save me asking you how to spell everything, can I see your license?"

When do you have to present ID (I'm assuming various levels of encounter that are below actual arrest)?

Bigger question; the basic line is anytime that the cop has reasonable suspicion of criminal activity that might be dispelled by presenting ID. I know; not much help. There's not a hard & fast rule that I'm aware, unless a state or locality has a specific law about it. (Virginia doesn't -- though it is illegal to lie to a police officer about your identity if you are detained.) I'm generally going to at least ask for it in anything other than a casual encounter. Most of the time -- people will give it to me without a problem. I'll even admit, I'm sometimes a little sneaky. I'll ask if you have ID; if you voluntarily give it to me, I haven't asked for it...

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I always carry ID. A business card is ID. It has my photo on it. (well, 1 does).
I've also been asked for a birth certificate and SSI card (not by cops) as ID. Neither are really reliable.

Out of curiosity, if you pull up a drivers license on a patrol car computer, does it include the DMV photo?

 

[jks9199]

I always carry ID. A business card is ID. It has my photo on it. (well, 1 does).
I've also been asked for a birth certificate and SSI card (not by cops) as ID. Neither are really reliable.

Out of curiosity, if you pull up a drivers license on a patrol car computer, does it include the DMV photo?

Whether you can get the DMV image depends on a lot of things...

First, are they accessible at all other than through DMV internal computers. Then, you get into the software on the computer. Can it show the picture if DMV sends it? Can it even ask for the picture? There is no national standard for DMV returns; there's not even a national standard for what information is collected and held. (VA DMV doesn't apparently feel that race is an important descriptor of a person...)

 

[Bruno@MT]

The guy wanted to get a reaction and response. But... a passport isn't automatically valid; it could be expired, the photo could be so old that it's worthless as ID (should someone accept the passport obtained for me when I was an infant as valid ID for me today, multiple decades later?) or just not a close enough match for the cop... Or it's just a lot easier to run a DL query than name/DOB. Passports don't include all the same information as a driver's license, and I'll often ask for them simply because I can copy the address down... saving several minutes of "OK, and how do you spell that?"

I don't know why the deputy was insisting on a driver's license. But there were two involved in the tango... What was the issue with not providing the driver's license?

Passports have an expiration date printed on them , so it is easy to see if it is valid. This also means automatically that the photo will be fairly recent.
And finally, passports contain at least as much information as a drivers livense, and possibly more. At least, this is the case for European passports. Home address will definitely be there.

 

[Bruno@MT]

I always carry ID. A business card is ID. It has my photo on it. (well, 1 does).
I've also been asked for a birth certificate and SSI card (not by cops) as ID. Neither are really reliable.

Out of curiosity, if you pull up a drivers license on a patrol car computer, does it include the DMV photo?

I know Americans are terribly upset by the very idea of a uniform id, but the idea does have its merits. We have 1 official id. This insures a uniformity of what is expected and accepted.

It also acts as a way of legitimizing yourself towards a 3d party. For example, banks will want to see that id when you open an account, clubs and stores will request to see it to verify your age, etc. It is much harder to forge than a simple drivers license. The drivers license is only looked at if you are actually driving. And of course, not everybody has a drivers license.

Americans always mention things like 1984 and the soviets as reasons for not having a uniform means of id, but really, many countries have been doing this for ages yet fail to be oppressed by their governments.

 

[Carol]

Here, drivers can usually opt to have their photo removed from the Dept. of Safety's computer system.

http://www.nh.gov/safety/divisions/dmv/driverlic/image.html
http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/xxi/260/260-14.htm

Ya know we've got a lot of freedom in this state Bob. And less snow than Buffalo :lol2:

 

[Carol]

Passports have an expiration date printed on them , so it is easy to see if it is valid. This also means automatically that the photo will be fairly recent.
And finally, passports contain at least as much information as a drivers livense, and possibly more. At least, this is the case for European passports. Home address will definitely be there.

American passports do not have a person's home address.

Passports are good for 10 years, an expired passport is still enough proof of citizenship for employment reasons, but I suspect LE doesn't appreciate seeing an expired one.

 

[Bruno@MT]

American passports do not have a person's home address.

Passports are good for 10 years, an expired passport is still enough proof of citizenship for employment reasons, but I suspect LE doesn't appreciate seeing an expired one.

Ah ok. Thanks. Ours have everything our gov issued id does (incl home address) and is only valid for 1 - 5 years. As soon as it is expired, it does not hold any legal significance anymore.

The only reason people sometimes hang onto it is if there are lots of travel stamps in it. However, when you request a new one, the old one has one of the corners cut off and the first couple of pages that are supposed to id you are marked invalid.

 

[Carol]

I suspect that a most Belgian folks have passports?

I think the majority of Americans do not. Those that do are usually folks that travel internationally (until recently we could travel to Canada or Mexico by car or on foot with just our driver's licenses), or have jobs where one routinely has to show proof of citizenship. (Government contractors, etc.)

A passport is not required, for proof of citizenship for employment purposes.

And...even less ID is required to vote.

The libertarian in me is not fond of a national ID card...however, I don't like voter fraud or immigration fraud either.

 

[Bruno@MT]

I suspect that a most Belgian folks have passports?

The libertarian in me is not fond of a national ID card...however, I don't like voter fraud or immigration fraud either.

Unless you stay within the EU, you need a passport to fly to other countries. Since many great holiday locations are in non EU countries, many people here have a passport. And of course, some people have to fly to the US, China, Japan or Canada for work purposes.

I am very much in favor of a national ID card. It enables you to prove to other parties who you are in an unambiguous manner. And yes, the cops can also look at it. I don't see how that is a problem. I live in this country. I don't think that it is unreasonable that my government knows that I do, too.

Personally I would be bothered much more if companies could get my credit history or medical history by simply asking Visa or my medical insurance company.

 

[Carol]

Personally I would be bothered much more if companies could get my credit history or medical history by simply asking Visa or my medical insurance company.

Aye...that is a whole 'nother debate. :asian: