TKD vs. Kenpo

[Mark Weiser]

Here in my Hometown of Topeka Kansas we have two schools of TKD.

1. Sun Yi's(Claims to be a International Headquarters for TKD)
2. Master Overby's

TKD seems to be around every corner here in Kansas lol.

 

[Nightingale]

han-mi-

with a kick of that much force,most kenpoists would choose to get out of the way or parry it off in a different direction rather than stand there and absorb the force. Best way to not get hit (or kicked) is don't be there in the first place. Kenpoists are taught to get offline and redirect force rather than take it head on. even our blocks are usually accompanied with a stance change.

I'm not sure what kind of kenpo you were watching, but the kenpo schools I've been to have spent way more time practicing defences against kick attacks than the three TKD schools I attended.

A "quick kick to the head" is a good way to hand the kenpoist the opportunity to parry your leg off to the side and move in behind you.

 

[MJS]

I wasn't aware that Kenpo fighters kick to the head. (the kicks I mentioned) TW

While Kenpo is mostly known for its low line kicks, kicking above the belt is possible. During sparring, I've routinely thrown kicks to the head. Again, considering that there are many more targets below the belt, I would think that taking the shortest route would be the best bet. Please dont misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm not knocking high kicks, but keep in mind, the higher your leg goes, the more off balance you may become.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Well...other things being roughly equal (time in training, height, weight, age, condition, etc.), the TKD fella would get their head handed to them.

The notion that TKD kicks would easily keep somebody in kenpo away...well, a few years back, I saw a Dodger game in which a pitcher tried a jump roundhouse kick to keep away an angry first baseman.

The kicker ended up on his face, with the first baseman cross-checking his shoulders and seriously considering a punch to the base of the skull...from which he backed off, good for him.

Among the reasons this would happen is that there doesn't seem to be anything in TKD that isn't in kenpo, and a great deal in kenpo that isn't in TKD. It does indeed make a difference what art you study...but then again, anybody in the right mind would rather have a good TKD teacher than a poor kenpo teacher.

Of course, if you had a really crappy kenpo student vs. a really crappy TKD student, who knows. And then too, one of the funniest things I ever saw in movies was the scene in, "Perfect Weapon," in which Jeff Speakman takes out James Lew....as if.

Robert- Excellent post!!! :asian: I remember that ballgame that you're referring to. Certainly makes one wonder about those high kicks.

Speaking of the Perfect Weapon, what did you think about that fight scene??

Mike

 

[Brother John]

Here in my Hometown of Topeka Kansas we have two schools of TKD.

1. Sun Yi's(Claims to be a International Headquarters for TKD)
2. Master Overby's

TKD seems to be around every corner here in Kansas lol.

Yeah Mark!

I got outta bed this morning and stubbed my toe on a TKD school.
They saturate this town!
Unfortunately a local instructor, who is...himself...quite good, is CHURNING out black belts and branch schools and reaaaallllly contributing to the "McDojang" way of life.
I talked to one of his ex-students (3rd Dan) who said that the 'master' has altered three of the oldest Hyung in the system because he felt that several people didn't understand them and found them 'challenging'....so he simplified them.
Now an instructor can do what he wants with what he teaches..... more power to'm...
But do so for the right reasons!!

SORRY...it's early, I'm preaching.

Your Brother
John

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Groan...

This could get like a bad Chinese movie.

"Hah! My Five Jades Jumping Eagle Claw will defeat your Plum Blossom Fist!"

"We'll see about that! HAAAAAAAAH!!"

Thwack!

"Oh! I see you've studied Golden Buddha Palm! Well, that will be no match for my Spinning Lao Ma Leopard Claw!"

-------------

There are too many factors to consider when trying to assess a fight between two men or women of different styles. When attempting to do this, posters here can fall into the trap of trying to validate their lives through defending what they do.

I've never studied it, but Kenpo is a great art worthy of every bit of respect I can muster for it.

I've been doing TKD since Linda Rondstadt was thin, beautiful, and dating Governor Jerry Brown of California. In that time I've found that it is far better to share methods than pit them against one another.

And folks...anecdotes are fun...but don't a trend make. If you're a TKD guy who has successfully kicked a Kenpo guy in the head with a roundhouse, or you're a Kenpo guy who has frustrated a TKD guy's kicks and gotten in...GREAT. You've just shown your acumen. You did well. It did not raise the banner of your style to the heights of achievement for all to venerate and hold in awe.

And by the way, if any of you get into hot disagreement with me, whether you're a TKD person or a Kenpo-ist, I'll whack you with my Golden Buddha Palm.

Or something.

Regards,


Steve

 

[Brother John]

[*]Sun Yi's(Claims to be a International Headquarters for TKD)

In my hometown, while I was still a TKD'ist we had a "Sun Yi's" academy move into town. The instructor's name was William Cody (Yes, Bill Cody....aka: Buffalo...he gets a kick out of seeing peoples faces while they realize that) and he was a 5th Dan at that time...I believe he's been given more stripes since then. Mr. Cody is a student of Mr. Yi himself. Myself and another high ranking student/friend of mine went to his school as a 'good will' gesture. He recieved us warmly and talked for some time. Then it became apparent that we were keeping him from his task of sheet-rocking his new school that wasn't yet open for business. So my friend and I rolled up our sleeves and spent the afternoon helping him put up the sheet-rock. He was a fine guy and gave us a couple of free lessons too, as well as an open invitation to work out at his school whenever we like. We also aranged for him to meet our instructor...which they did and became fast friends. ((the town was, and probably still is, ripe for martial arts schools...so the two saw this as an opportunity to advance TKD in the town...not so much as a competition))
Good guy, Good school, Good art/association.

Years later I moved to Wichita and met another one of Master Yi's students. I just got to talking with a co-worker and the subject of martial arts came up. He told me that he was a 5th Dan under Master Yi too!!! I never saw him move, but he was a quality guy! You could tell he was a fine black belt just by how he treated people and carried himself. Character!

I guess Master Yi is located in your town (Topeka) Mark. I think that's what they mean by the "international headquarters".
In all honesty, from my experience with two of his higher ranking students, he's a good instructor with a good traditional TKD style.

Just thought I'd share.
Bout time we all had some positive things to say about arts/schools that aren't our own.

Your Brother
John

 

[kenpo tiger]

Brother John,

You said:
Yet, when I got into American Kenpo...they taught me kicks that I'd never seen or known of in TKD!! What's more, my instructor took my TKD kicks and taught me varied methods of execution with them... so that my arsenal of kicks doubled or trippled w/in a month!! NO KIDDING!!!

What types of kicks did you learn in kenpo that you weren't given in tkd? I found that, as I stated previously, most all of the kicks I've had to do in kenpo have been: basic, ones I know, and yes, done low. Yes, I prefer kenpo to tkd for a myriad of reasons, not the least of which is that my body type is better suited for kenpo (short with short legs) and I feel that I am still much quicker and more skilled with my hands despite my tkd training. However, having those tkd skills is useful to keep the big guys back far enough during sparring so that I can work an opening to get inside. You're fortunate that your instructor knew tkd also and was able to help you with your kicks.

It's all about getting there first with the most and getting out. KT

 

[Brother John]

Brother John,

You said:
Yet, when I got into American Kenpo...they taught me kicks that I'd never seen or known of in TKD!! What's more, my instructor took my TKD kicks and taught me varied methods of execution with them... so that my arsenal of kicks doubled or trippled w/in a month!! NO KIDDING!!!

What types of kicks did you learn in kenpo that you weren't given in tkd? I found that, as I stated previously, most all of the kicks I've had to do in kenpo have been: basic, ones I know, and yes, done low. Yes, I prefer kenpo to tkd for a myriad of reasons, not the least of which is that my body type is better suited for kenpo (short with short legs) and I feel that I am still much quicker and more skilled with my hands despite my tkd training. However, having those tkd skills is useful to keep the big guys back far enough during sparring so that I can work an opening to get inside. You're fortunate that your instructor knew tkd also and was able to help you with your kicks.

It's all about getting there first with the most and getting out. KT

actually my Kenpo instructor had just a passing familiarity with TKD, what he did was observe what I was doing and perfect it.

I don't want to turn this into a big "technical" discussion, BUT
many of the TKD kicks chamber at different locations, my Kenpo instructor taught me how to chamber all of them from ONE location...so the beginning of all of my kicks Looks exactly the same. This has the overall effect of making it difficult for my opponent to read my intentions at the chamber. It also has the effect of letting me change the kick mid-flight without diminishing the speed or power. MUCH more versatile.
Some of the changes on the kicks were just a matter of changing the method of execution: Whipping/snapping/thrusting/smothering...
or changes in angles
There are a couple of kicks that required NO chamber, are low and work primarily on the large muscles of the upper and lower legs.
He taught me three new variations on the back kick
he showed me how to position my hip differently during a roundhouse in order to increase the power and speed of my roundhouse kicks....which also made my 'repeating' roundhouse kicks much more effective...now they fire out there with increasing power on the successive kicks.
My kicking form is more effective and practical now as well. When I teach them to my students they have NO balance problems.
BUT: as I said before, most anything above my own belly button.....
nope.
Doesn't fit with the overall strategy.

Your Brother
John

 

[Mark Weiser]

This is what is all about folks recongizing that each art is good in its own right and if studied and mastered then you are a force to be recongized.

The Kenpo Creed states that I will honor all Arts and its Students. So I for one am willling to learn from any MA if it will assist me in my study of MA. TKD or Kenpo or Gung-Fu, Etc....


Mark E. Weiser

 

[Michael Billings]

Great posts and discussion.

First, I do know a Kenpoist who went to Moo Duk Kwan TKD after getting his 1st or 2nd Black in Kenpo. He got a Black belt, then brought what he learned back into his school. It also served as his thesis, written, and form. He is now a 7th Black in Kenpo.

Combination kicks, jump kicks, jump double kicks (aka Chicken Kicks, [front, side, and rear]) are in Kicking Set #2

Other kicks not found in TKD:

• Scoops
• Knife-Edge (as vs. side thrust kick, which we also to teach)
• Vertical Heel (reference Five Swords for those that know the extension or older Tracy version where it is included)
• Thrusting Sweep
• Inverted ball kick
• Twist Kick

But the big difference is the use of legs as weapons in ways other than kicking, e.g. for buckles, checks, sweeps, etc.

Still, the power, focus, balance, of TKD kicks ... and you just plain spend so many darn hours doing them, as compared to the average Kenpoist, means that their kicks MAY look better given an equivalent time in the Art.

Bad news, it takes Kenpo guys so long to promote between belts, we usually saw TKD guys get to black in the time it took us to get to blue or green. Problematic when it is an open tournament and you have a 7 year brown belt that can ... and does win the Black division, no other training than kenpo, either.

-Michael

 

[jfarnsworth]

Excellent points sir! :asian:

 

[TigerWoman]

Other kicks not found in TKD:

• Scoops
• Knife-Edge (as vs. side thrust kick, which we also to teach)
• Vertical Heel (reference Five Swords for those that know the extension or older Tracy version where it is included)
• Thrusting Sweep
• Inverted ball kick
• Twist Kick

But the big difference is the use of legs as weapons in ways other than kicking, e.g. for buckles, checks, sweeps, etc.

-Michael

Its interesting to see the differences. In our TKD school, we do a ball kick similar to a round kick. We also do the twist kick also. We do some sweeps, standing and on the floor. What is a vertical heel, and knife edge, if I may ask? Is knife edge like a low crescent? Vertical heel like an axe kick in TKD? Just wondered. TW

 

[jfarnsworth]

Its interesting to see the differences. In our TKD school, we do a ball kick similar to a round kick. We also do the twist kick also. We do some sweeps, standing and on the floor. What is a vertical heel, and knife edge, if I may ask? Is knife edge like a low crescent? Vertical heel like an axe kick in TKD? Just wondered. TW

The ball kick may have a slightly different version depending upon your kenpo lineage. I would say from my experience that if a person is laying on their side and you were perpindicular to the opponent a low line front snap ball kick could be applied to the ribs. Followed closely behind the ball would be a heel kick or commonly known to me as a shovel kick.

Vertical heel hook kick would be if the attacker was bent over as you were checking them down with some type of various check, maybe you were to raise your right leg directly up and vertical to deliver a heel kick to the solar plexus or any available target on the centerline of the attacker.

Knife edge side kick instead of a heel. It as a smaller weapon has a chance at striking a target due to profile or kicking out the side of a knee as you have a longer width wise weapon to minimize margin for error of missing the knee. Hopefully this helps and is similar to what Mr. Billing's ideas he was trying to give.
:asian:

 

[Han-Mi]

The ball kick may have a slightly different version depending upon your kenpo lineage. I would say from my experience that if a person is laying on their side and you were perpindicular to the opponent a low line front snap ball kick could be applied to the ribs. Followed closely behind the ball would be a heel kick or commonly known to me as a shovel kick.

Vertical heel hook kick would be if the attacker was bent over as you were checking them down with some type of various check, maybe you were to raise your right leg directly up and vertical to deliver a heel kick to the solar plexus or any available target on the centerline of the attacker.

Knife edge side kick instead of a heel. It as a smaller weapon has a chance at striking a target due to profile or kicking out the side of a knee as you have a longer width wise weapon to minimize margin for error of missing the knee. Hopefully this helps and is similar to what Mr. Billing's ideas he was trying to give.
:asian:

I have learned all these kicks but, my instructor is very eclectic and may have learned them from other styles. The one I would like to address is the knife-edge side kick. My instructor went to Korea about 10 years ago to test for his 4th dan, he was told by our GM that that was the only way to do the kick correctly. Since then, that's how we angle our foot, and I agree, it is a better weapon.

many of the TKD kicks chamber at different locations, my Kenpo instructor taught me how to chamber all of them from ONE location...so the beginning of all of my kicks Looks exactly the same. This has the overall effect of making it difficult for my opponent to read my intentions at the chamber. It also has the effect of letting me change the kick mid-flight without diminishing the speed or power. MUCH more versatile.
Some of the changes on the kicks were just a matter of changing the method of execution: Whipping/snapping/thrusting/smothering...
or changes in angles

John, it sounds to me as though you got a better teacher when you went to Kenpo.(no disrespect to your former teacher) As for chambering all your kicks from one spot, we actually teach that in the white belts for some kicks and a few harder ones we train higher in the ranks. All the rest, Whipping/snapping/thrusting/smothering or changes in angles, we do it all of the time. If kicking is gonna be your primary weapon you have to figure out every way to execute it possible. That's how we ended up with flashy kicks that don't really work in a fight, they tried it, and it was possible but, not effective. We practice those more for balance and body control than anything else.

As for the nay sayers, this post was just for fun. I enjoyed reading every reply and feel that I have gotten an insight from it. I realized before I posted it that there would be a lot of bias one way or the other but that is what makes it possible to choose one to win. no bias, no winner.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Well, let's see how many people I can tick off this morning.

1. James Lew is, patently, a dyed-in-the-wool badass. The likes of me do not fool with James Lew, or Hee Il Cho for that matter. We are too young and beautiful to die abruptly and horribly. I thought the fight scene was fun to watch, and--like all such fight scenes--ridiculous. Among other things, nobody takes shots like that and keeps fighting.

2. One of the guys where I train is 6' 10" tall. I used to run out, roundhouse him in the head a couple times, then run away. Regrettably, about the time he got to 1st brown, he started slapping my foot down and smiling. An eldritch, evil smile. Life has not been good since then.

3. If you think kenpo has no high kicks to the head--yes, with people standing, you're wrong. Peruse the endings.

4. It is my impression that there are more crappy TKD studios out there than any other martial art, though there also seem to be plenty of crappy kenpo studios, and a growing number of gawdawful jiu-jitsu studios.

5. Of the--maybe four?--TKD people I've trained with and in a couple cases taught, what really sticks in my mind is how gawdawful their kicks were. There was no power, the stances were terrible, the form was sloppy, and worst of all, the students didn't seem to have a foundation laid down on which to develop. I was shocked, and no, I'm not kidding.

6. Again, my point was that kenpo is simply a more-comprehensive art. Other things being roughly equal, a kenpo guy's got a better chance. Does this guarantee anything? Oh, hell no. I'm pretty sure that I know way more about martial arts than Mike Tyson. Anybody want to stick us in a ring and bet on me?

 

[Han-Mi]

Awsome post... I hope you get a good TKDist to train with so that you can understand the true potential of our art. Still, an awsome post, and I just felt I had to say that.

 

[Flatlander]

I'm pretty sure that I know way more about martial arts than Mike Tyson. Anybody want to stick us in a ring and bet on me?

If you do, remember to wear earmuffs.

 

[kenpo tiger]

Combination kicks, jump kicks, jump double kicks (aka Chicken Kicks, [front, side, and rear]) are in Kicking Set #2

Which is learned at which level? I assume black ii or higher.

Other kicks not found in TKD:

• Scoops
• Knife-Edge (as vs. side thrust kick, which we also to teach)

This is one I have been taught in both tkd and karate. Chamber and foot position vary.

• Inverted ball kick
• Twist Kick

Learned both of these from one of my tkd instructors who used to train everywhere and in every art he could, so I don't know if it's tkd or just him.

I also read your explanations to TigerWoman. I think, and no disrespect meant, it's a question of 'you say tomato and i say tohmahtoh'. Then again, as someone else pointed out, this a fun discussion and it's quite interesting reading everyone's take on things. Just goes to show that we all enjoy getting information from everywhere because you can always learn something if you ask. Thank you. KT

 

[Rob Broad]

I am surprised that none of the kenpo people mentioned the slicing knife edge kick.