TKD vs. Kenpo

[TigerWoman]

Among the reasons this would happen is that there doesn't seem to be anything in TKD that isn't in kenpo

I wasn't aware that Kenpo fighters kick to the head. (the kicks I mentioned) TW

 

[Nightingale]

LOL. of course kenpoists can kick to the head. I kick to the head in sparring often. we just generally choose not to, because mosttimes its more effective to kick elsewhere, or knock them over and then kick them in the head.

 

[Raewyn]

Im quite lucky in the fact that I belong to a club called Incorporated Martial ARts. TKD is the base. But all the moves, locks, grappling etc has a more realistic approach. They teach us moves that you could use and will work in any given situation and have been tried. Maybe in some instances I couldnt see myself trying to do a 560 degree spinning hook kick to someones head in a middle of a fight.

 

[Rob Broad]

LOL. of course kenpoists can kick to the head. I kick to the head in sparring often. we just generally choose not to, because mosttimes its more effective to kick elsewhere, or knock them over and then kick them in the head.

Kicking to the head is great when it comes to sport, but but low kicks are more effective in a self defense situation.

 

[TigerWoman]

LOL. of course kenpoists can kick to the head. I kick to the head in sparring often. we just generally choose not to, because mosttimes its more effective to kick elsewhere, or knock them over and then kick them in the head.

Thanks for the info - sounds like Kenpo is something I would like to check out more. TW

 

[Nightingale]

Kicking to the head is great when it comes to sport, but but low kicks are more effective in a self defense situation.

Exactly. Kenpoists can kick to the head, but generally choose not to because more effective targets are available. I'd rather kick out someone's knee and KNOW they're not going to be able to follow me as I turn tail and run, than kick to the head, which may or may not actually disable my opponent, and leaves my standing leg wide open to be kicked out from under me.

 

[TigerWoman]

I guess we- TKD- have the same strategy then. In sparring for sport, I would kick to the head. But for self defense, you'all are right about the knee. We train for that defense as well, more like street self defense. Its interesting that the two do seem to be so similar but different in other ways. TW

 

[Ceicei]

Oh, kenpo does have high kicks and spinning kicks, but we generally use med/low kicks as these often are more practical.

- Ceicei

 

[kenpo tiger]

TW, One of the things I find is that people who only know kenpo don't think to throw multiple kicks - either the same kick at different heights or targets or a combination. There are a couple kenpo techs which incorporate different combinations of kicks, but they are mostly very basic ones (front, side, back, roundhouse.) The couple of times I 'forgot' and threw combinations of kicks in sparring, my partner stopped the round because he wanted to see what I did over and over again.

That being said, I think that knowing point sparring as well as sparring the way we do in kenpo is valuable. I don't know that, given a fight between practitioners of the two without rules, that there would be one stronger than the other. Each art has its own strong and weak points, and I am glad I know both. KT

 

[Nightingale]

the kick set teaches multiple kick combinations.

I use them in sparring often. double kicks are very effective, because the opponent doesn't usually expect them.

 

[kenpo tiger]

Of course kicking set teaches that. And we all have to know it. Most of my classmates hate kicking set. And, practically all do not chamber their kicks outside of a specific movement in a tech. Point I'm making is that the knowledge IS there. They choose not to use it. KT

 

[TigerWoman]

Thank you Kenpo Tiger for the info also. Its hard to know what its like unless I see a few classes. You are right about the multiple kicks in TKD.
We don't ever stop at one kick. Its usually either a fake, a kick, punches, a double spin or whatever we put in combo for the situation. I guess that is why I do love the sparring we do. Gosh, I had practiced that jump back/jumpspin heel combo so much that in the heat of the moment (after several moves in combo too), in a tournament sparring match, I threw it and barely stopped it in time to just tap a woman's head. Scared the ...out of me! And her son yelled, "are you trying to kill my mom? I wasn't thinking, I was reacting and that kick had become second nature. I haven't been sparring in a tournament since, it was the one before the last. TW

 

[Brother John]

I wasn't aware that Kenpo fighters kick to the head. (the kicks I mentioned) TW

Sure we do!!
It just looks a lot more like a stomp!!
:roflmao:

Your Brother
John

 

[Brother John]

I wasn't aware that Kenpo fighters kick to the head. (the kicks I mentioned) TW

In all honesty though...
Yes, in Kenpo we can and do kick to the head. Thing is, Kenpo's greatest strength (I feel) lies in it's vast ability to adapt to........whatever.
There are moves that are usable, useful and useless.
Study:
* the useable, to learn what can be done.
* the useful, to learn what you should do/train in more often.
* the useless, to learn WHY not to do these things, WHY they don't work well.

Kicks: Useful...w/in a given context. Kicks to the head, a useless context...
UNLESS:
They can't see you, not looking...etc.
They can't move/can't defend
They are currently reeling from previous destruction
..and so on.

NOW: Kicks to the head in a different context: USEFUL.
1. You've knocked them down to one or both knees....bringing their head to your stomach height.... USEFUL.
2. You are on higher ground to begin with... putting their head (again) at your waist level or so....USEFUL.
and so on
Remember, the best way to fight a 6'2" man
is to kick him in the knee
and fight a 4'8" man!!

I believe that Robert is correct, but he may not realize just how correct.
Thing is, I did TKD for half a decade and did very well at it. I was a devoted student and was very enthusiastic for kicks. At my instructors behest I even cross-trained with another school of TKD. In college I studied another Korean art that was very 'kick happy'....
Yet, when I got into American Kenpo...they taught me kicks that I'd never seen or known of in TKD!! What's more, my instructor took my TKD kicks and taught me varied methods of execution with them... so that my arsenal of kicks doubled or trippled w/in a month!! NO KIDDING!!!
BUT: I still pose to you that Kicks are not as Useful as finger/hand/elbow techniques.
ALSO: The cresent Kick!!! Darned stupid kick that! (inward and/or outward) I've seen many a fine martial artist try it on a punching bag and end up falling on their keester... The line of force that you are atempting to deliver through the leg goes directly against:
1. Your line of balance, due to trajectory.
2. The natural ROM of your knee and hip joints. (Through which you are trying to deliver power)
It's a rediculous kick...........................................

ANYWAY:
I still apreciate TKD and my time in it. I respect and love LOTS of old friends who are still in it....
But I pose that it is just as logical to kick a man in the head...
as to punch him in the foot.

Your Brother
John

PS: Remember the GOLDEN RULE of Kenpo....




There is No Golden Rule in Kenpo!

 

[Marginal]

I am a kenpoist and I know kenpoists who have foughts TKD'ers. They simply closed the distance while the first impractically flashy kick was being executed and annihilated them with hands. Members of our club have been disqualified from open MA fights (in this case Kenpo vs TKD) for basically battering the TKD fighters!

I used to train with a Kenpoist who was a 3rd degree brown belt. (He also held a BB in TKD, though he hadn't practiced TKD in years) When we sparred, he would try to close the distance usually by jumping in, and I'd simply push him right back out with a side pushing kick. He did have superior footwork. If I didn't have him cold, he'd be gone by the time I tried kick him anywhere higher than the waist. (Especially with any technique involving a spin) When I kept my kicks down to the basics though, and kept him out he had a hard time doing much as I had the superior reach though.

His hands didn't blow me away when he got in close though (excepting when he got behind me, which was often...) He taught me some useful stuff about posture, balance and timing, but I don't think I'll be tossing in for Kenpo over TKD any time soon.

(Yeah, I'm biased too.)

Brother John, I'd argue that the crescent kick works well for its original purpose, as a defensive tool. It'll win against a hand technique pretty much every time it intercepts it properly. Superior mass and all that. As an offensive tool, yarch tho.

 

[Brother John]

Brother John, I'd argue that the crescent kick works well for its original purpose, as a defensive tool. It'll win against a hand technique pretty much every time it intercepts it properly. Superior mass and all that. As an offensive tool, yarch tho.

I used to do that trick....crescent kick to the oncoming punch/grab/knife...etc.

Come on though.... Even back then I could'a told you that that didn't work.
You're gonna tell me that you take anyone with an inkling ability to fight (trained or not) get them within punching range and deflect their oncoming assault with the sweep of your foot?
It just don't go marginal....
sorry.

Does look good during demonstrations though.
Your Brother
John

 

[Marginal]

I did put in a pretty hefty qualifier there just for that reason.

 

[Mark Weiser]

The Problem with some kicks in TKD is the exposure of the opposite leg to attack to the knee, ankle or worse yet to the groin. IF you attack someone trained in a punching art it is possible to use a strike to the kicking leg as a way to disable the use of the leg such as targeting the ankle or the knee or worse yet the sataic nerve in the outer thigh.

Pretty much the same way in Kenpo your use of a block can break a joint in the arm. If Someone strikes the ankle while doing a kick or better yet with blocking forearm it is possible to injury the attacking leg.

Additionally the use of balance in kicking is very important the higher the kick the more precious the balance becomes. If someone is trained to fight aganist/specific to TKD it is possible to throw the balance off by giving a tug on the attacking leg a tug of about 3-4 lbs of pressure is all that maybe neccessary to cause a stumble therefore opening yourself up to hand movements or grappling.

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser

 

[Marginal]

The Problem with some kicks in TKD is the exposure of the opposite leg to attack to the knee, ankle or worse yet to the groin. IF you attack someone trained in a punching art it is possible to use a strike to the kicking leg as a way to disable the use of the leg such as targeting the ankle or the knee or worse yet the sataic nerve in the outer thigh.

Seems about as likely as the crescent kick successfully deflecting a punch...

 

[Han-Mi]

I just got the chance to get on and read all your posts. Well written and backed up, very interesting as well.
I have trained in traditional TKD Chung Do Kwan for 13 years, though I have also trained in the basics of many other arts from my instructors experience and other instructors that we would have exchanges of knowledge with. I would have to say that a TKD fighter and a Kenpo fighter would be completely evenly matched for a couple of reasons.
1. equal knowledge of what works and what doesn't
2. TKD's powerful, fast kicks can still be blacked. In my experience, a good kenpoist will take a kick on the shoulder in order to close the gap and then would be able to make a strong attack.
3. The kenpo fighter would have a damaged arm from such a blow, weakening and slowing one of his weapons.
4. Equal footwork.
5. Both would believe themselves to be superior, or both would be smart enough not to underestimate each other. Either way, they both have the same problem or knowledge.

I would have to say that number 1 is the most important. I have seen a few posts about how tkd's flashy kicks or head kicks are not usefull. I must agree that the flashy kicks are for fun, but head kicks have their uses. A quick head kick can save you from endangering yourself by getting close enough for your opponant to attack you. Most people don't know how to use their legs effectively, therefore will not be able to attack at the same distance. As for the Kenpo kicks, TKD has more experience against kicks, so that would make the kenpo fighters kicks more of a liability than an equalizer.

I am in love with TKD but, utterly fascinated with Kenpo. I love the had speed and try to build my own all the time. We occasionaly train with a friend of ours who runs 2 schools a few towns away. The biggest problem with TKD is that there are a lot of schools out there that either teach olympic(not for self defense) or poor quality TKD. And it is probably true that there is a higher quantity of quality Kenpo schools out there. what do you guys think about that?