TKD school - sparring optional?

[mastercole]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastercole
The definitions gives the reader a choice between three activities "exercises, sports, or games"

You could be an athlete in just exercises, just sports, or just games.

The definition does not make the term "athlete" exclusive to sports and games. That is the part you are overlooking and confused about.

Athlete: a person who is trained or skilled in exercises, sports, or games requiring physical strength, agility, or stamina<<<

Why are you skipping over what I said last night? That without a sporting context to tie into exercise, we would be forced to consider things like Soduku or singing athletics, as they too have 'exercises'.

But we are not addressing Soduku or singing, we are considering marital arts. Stop getting of subject. I addressed your erroneous comments, you just have to learn to read the definition for what it says, not what you want it to say.

Why do you also ignore the longstanding convention that martial activities outside of sporting contests don't use the term athlete or athletics to refer to themselves?

I don't ignore it, I acknowledge that it happens in the small pond that it's proponents dwell in, and I state that it's not an issue among all the little fish in the big martial arts pond.

For very good reason, I might add since those words have connotations undesirable in the pursuit of goals that don't involve a medal or trophy

Being a martial arts athlete is undesirable? Maybe in the small pond.

Do you know the etymology of the word athlete? It may have evolved from the Greek word athlon, or contest or prize.

Yes, and athlete can train for either, contest or a prize. Take note of the word "or"

What is a contest? Definition time again!

con·test (k&#601;n test&#8242;; for n. kän&#8242;test&#8242 transitive verb 1. to fight for (ground, a military position, etc.); struggle to win or keep

Surely you can see that your argument for juxtaposing martial art and athletics is beyond credulity?

Surely not, I mean every single definition of athlete, contest, competition, sparring, etc has proved athlete and martial artist is a perfect match, so there you have it

 

[mastercole]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastercole
You are confused again.

I use the redman and the bluemax for my students.

My fighters did not like the redman. I shared with you the opinion of a group of fighters who experienced the suits. Stop changing around what I said to suit your agenda and stick with facts, which you seem to have a hard time doing.<<<

Let me try to simplify for you. You've argued that hard hitters would not find the Redman useful to train with. I've argued the opposite

Oh, your explanations are simple enough. Let me recap for you: [My fighters did not like the redman.] Do you understand my statement? The one in between the [ ] ?????

 

[mastercole]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastercole
Again and again, the dictionary disagrees with you<<<

Real usage does not.

Get real. The definitions are not disputable, they are based on current usage, not what you think they should be.

You are the one way out on the limb, trying to equate martial art to athletics, a position that which is not universally nor even widely held by other martial artists.

Talk about out on a limb. LOL!

Let's see, how popular is MMA these days? Hummmmmm. Widely watched, widely participated in. What do these guys call themselves? Martial Arts Athletes! Amazing!

Again, they exist, whether you want them to or not.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Come on guys, just clarify what you mean by what you say and move on.

Now that I know what Mastercole is using the broader definitions of sport and athlete, I'll simply take that into account when conversing with him.

I know that Dancingalone uses narrower definitions of sport and athlete. I simply take that into account when conversing with him.

Daniel

 

[mastercole]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastercole
Old school Okinawa Te enthusiast Funakoshi Gichin Sensei disagrees with you. He said Okinawa Te is a sport.

sport (spôrt). noun 1. any activity or experience that gives enjoyment or recreation; pastime; diversion

Sport again gives you options. You do not have to go to tournaments to participate in sports, as we see above.<<<

Are you just engaging in debating tactics for the fun of it? Do you genuinely believe what you wrote? Really?

First, Funakoshi Sensei's students did indeed move KARATE-DO (not Te) into the sporting direction. Perhaps Funakoshi Sensei too felt this was a proper course to set for his art to gain acceptance in Japanese society.

Again, you don't have to go to tournaments to be considered a sport.

It's not perhaps Funakoshi this or that, read his book. He writes about to-te jitsu being selected for physical education in the Okinawan school system, athletic development and martial arts termed as a sport. You should do some research before you make off the cuff comments.

That said, many of his contemporaries, including his senior Miyagi, Chojun Sensei most assuredly did not share the same view about adding competition into their art. I'm further most bemused by the thought of the Okinawan masters from the 1800s when Te would have been the most likely name equating what they did to sport.

Again you are confused, I nor Funakoshi Sensei were talking about tournaments, we are talking about sport.

 

[mastercole]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastercole

Aikikai Aikido is also a sport, according to the first point of definition of sport;

sport (spôrt). noun 1. any activity or experience that gives enjoyment or recreation; pastime; diversion

Actually Aikikai Aikido gives all four, making it a super-sport.

1. Aikikai Aikido gives enjoyment. (to it's members)
2. Aikikai Aikido provides recreation. (for it's practitioners)
3. Aikikai Aikido provides a pastime. (for it's enthusiast)
4. Aikikai Aikido provides a diversion. (for all it's participants)

Sport again gives you options. You do not have to go to tournaments to participate in sports, as we see above.<<<

Are you just engaging in debating tactics for the fun of it? Do you genuinely believe what you wrote? Really?

As for aikido, I know the vast majority of my contemporaries and seniors would find your assertion misguided at best. As would the Doshu and his shihan. Unless you know something that the people who actually practice the art don't? No, we don't consider aikido a sport. Nor should you, unless again you find that precarious limb something pleasant to perch upon.

Wow, this is all going to come as a BIG surprise to you!

The Doshu and his All Japan Aikido Federation highly disagrees with you, from their own account, they consider Aikido, a sport even though it may not YET be tournament material. Consider this:

The Doshu even moved the All Japan Aikido Federation to join the International Aikido Federation and supported Aikido's entrance into the SportAccord Combat Games. Aikido is one of the 15 martial arts sport featured in the 2013 Combat Games. (The Doshu is even organizing the next Aikido Congress at the Olympic Memorial Youth Center in Toyko, a famous sports center). Check this out

Aikido Enters World Combat Games as Event at SportAccord - St. Petersburg, Russia

The World Combat Games are a stage for the martial arts and combat sports.They showcase Olympic and non-Olympic martial arts and combat sports, among them Aikido, Boxing, Judo, Ju-Jitsu, Karate, Kendo, Kickboxing, Muaythai, Sambo, Sumo, Taekwondo, Wrestling, and Wushu. Featuring the best athletes of each sport, the Combat Games are a top-quality sporting event. But the Combat Games are not only about sports. They are accompanied by a rich and entertaining cultural program that reflects the ancient traditions and values of martial arts as well as well as their contribution to modern society.

The next World Combat Games will be in 2013.


Athletes Embrace First World Combat Games

The first edition of the SportAccord World Combat Games took place from August 28 to September 5, 2010 in Beijing. Over 1000 athletes from all five continents participated and about the same number of volunteers helped to deliver the event. During the eight days of competition, 118 gold medals were awarded. The colourful Opening Ceremony with spectacular show elements took place in the Beijing National Indoor Stadium and almost all of the 16.000 seats were filled.

For many athletes the Combat Games 2010 were the first opportunity to take part in a multi-sports event. &#8220;I am impressed by the size and the scope of these Combat Games. I am competing since more than 20 years now, and have been to three world championships, but nothing compares to this here. This week has been a great experience,&#8221; says Thomas Le Cuyer (USA), bronze medal in 70 kg Men&#8217;s Grappling. To learn more about the World Combat Games 2010 in Beijing

SportAccord 2013
Written by Peter Goldsbury
Sunday, 10 April 2011 21:27
The SportAccord General Meeting was held in London on Saturday, April 8, 2011.
The IAF was represented at the General Meeting by Peter Goldsbury, IAF Chairman, Stefan Stenudd, IAF Vice-Chairman and August Dragt, IAF Assistant General Secretary. A special guest was Lydia la Riviere Zeijdel, who was the winner of a Spirit of Sport award for her work with the disabled.

During the General Meeting it was announced that the next SportAccord World Combat Games will be held in October 2013 in the Russian city of St Petersburg.

As one of the fifteen martial arts and combat sports federations within SportAccord, the IAF will be be present in St Petersburg and will give a demonstration. Nothing has been arranged yet, it is hoped that a large aikido training seminar will be held to coincide with the IAF demonstration.

Further news will be given in due course, but the preparation for the IAF demonstration starts NOW.

Peter Goldsbury
IAF Chairman"

Wow, your own organization agrees with me on terms like games, sports, martial arts athletes, etc.

Guess your out on that limb you speak about.....

 

[mastercole]

Come on guys, just clarify what you mean by what you say and move on.

Now that I know what Mastercole is using the broader definitions of sport and athlete, I'll simply take that into account when conversing with him.

I know that Dancingalone uses narrower definitions of sport and athlete. I simply take that into account when conversing with him.

Daniel

I am using terms commonly used by the parent organizations of the martial arts Dancingalone likes to refer to, not my own.

 

[mastercole]

Dancingalone,

Now that I have given you the details of sports, martial arts athletes, fighting, and a bunch of other things, could you please answer my questions.

Thank you so much.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I am using terms commonly used by the parent organizations of the martial arts Dancingalone likes to refer to, not my own.

Doesn't matter if they are his own, your own, or someone else's own. Once you each know what the other means when they they say "athlete" then move on with your conversation. The objective is to know what the person you're talking to is saying. You've each made your point about why you feel that the word should be used in the way that you are using it. You each know what the other is saying. No point in getting stuck in a terminology debate.

Essentially, you are arguing over which definition is the one used by most people. If both of your dictionary definitions fit what the dictionary says, and if each of you has clarified which definition you are using, then move forward with whatever it was you were discussing beforehand.

My comment was directed to both of you, by the way. Keep at it if you want; no skin off my back. But your conversation might be more productive if you'd both just move on.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

I am amused. You are trying SO hard to make aikido into something that it is not just to 'win' an argument. It's obvious you don't know much about aikido - you've just googled something to try to bolster your case.

From your very own source: http://www.aikido-international.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=15&Itemid=29

Here are some highlights that you might find interesting. I certainly did.

"As a member of the IWGA, the IAF has participated in the World Games. Though Aikido does not hold competitions, participation in the World Games is an important way of making aikido better known. The IAF participated in the last World Games, held in Germany in 2005. An aikido training course, open to everybody, is generally held on the occasion of these events.

The IAF also took part in the Sportaccord Combat Games, which took place in Beijing, China, in 2010. For these Games, over 70 participants assembled and gave demonstrations over three days. The demonstrations culminated in two special demonstrations given by shihans, Christian Tissier Shihan (7th dan) from the FFAAA (France) and Yoshiaki Yokota Shihan (7th dan), from the Aikikai Hombu Dojo in Japan. The next Sportaccord World Combat Games is planned for 2013. The IAF will participate in these Games and give an international demonstration."

Sounds like it was a good time. Lots of training seminars and demonstrations which are frequent activities in aikido gatherings.

The same article by Mr. Goldbury lists these achievements of the IAF.

"Since its foundation in 1976, the IAF has also been able to fulfil several important functions:​

1. The IAF has provided a means whereby aikido practitioners from all over the world can meet and practise the art together under the direction of high-ranking teachers, especially those teachers directly affiliated to the Aikikai Hombu.​

2. The IAF has provided an open forum in which aikido organisations affiliated to the Aikikai can meet in friendship and discuss matters of common interest.​

3. The IAF has provided a forum for discussion between these aikido organisations and instructors affiliated to the Aikikai Hombu who reside abroad.​

4. The IAF has, through its congresses and other meetings, provided an official channel of communication between aikido organisations and the Aikikai Hombu.​

5. At a national and a continental level, the IAF has, through its member federations, helped to sow the seeds of aikido on new ground: to introduce and spread the art in countries where it did not exist.​

6. The IAF has engaged in official contacts with various officially recognised sports bodies and has thus shown the face of aikido on occasions like the World Games and the Sportaccord Combat Games, where the art risks being misunderstood.
The risks of misunderstanding exist, because aikido is not a sport in one commonly-accepted sense of the term, for it does not hold competitions.​

7. The IAF’s status as a recognised international federation has been of great assistance in enabling some member federations to gain recognition from their own government authorities.
Not all members need such recognition, but some do—and this is a fact which is of some importance."​

So they are all about providing Hombu-related training activities while trying to foster awareness of aikido as a martial art world-wide. Laudable goals.

Sport? I think not.

Wow, this is all going to come as a BIG surprise to you!

The Doshu and his All Japan Aikido Federation highly disagrees with you, from their own account, they consider Aikido, a sport even though it may not YET be tournament material. Consider this:

The Doshu even moved the All Japan Aikido Federation to join the International Aikido Federation and supported Aikido's entrance into the SportAccord Combat Games. Aikido is one of the 15 martial arts sport featured in the 2013 Combat Games. (The Doshu is even organizing the next Aikido Congress at the Olympic Memorial Youth Center in Toyko, a famous sports center). Check this out

Aikido Enters World Combat Games as Event at SportAccord - St. Petersburg, Russia

The World Combat Games are a stage for the martial arts and combat sports.They showcase Olympic and non-Olympic martial arts and combat sports, among them Aikido, Boxing, Judo, Ju-Jitsu, Karate, Kendo, Kickboxing, Muaythai, Sambo, Sumo, Taekwondo, Wrestling, and Wushu. Featuring the best athletes of each sport, the Combat Games are a top-quality sporting event. But the Combat Games are not only about sports. They are accompanied by a rich and entertaining cultural program that reflects the ancient traditions and values of martial arts as well as well as their contribution to modern society.

The next World Combat Games will be in 2013.


Athletes Embrace First World Combat Games

The first edition of the SportAccord World Combat Games took place from August 28 to September 5, 2010 in Beijing. Over 1000 athletes from all five continents participated and about the same number of volunteers helped to deliver the event. During the eight days of competition, 118 gold medals were awarded. The colourful Opening Ceremony with spectacular show elements took place in the Beijing National Indoor Stadium and almost all of the 16.000 seats were filled.

For many athletes the Combat Games 2010 were the first opportunity to take part in a multi-sports event. “I am impressed by the size and the scope of these Combat Games. I am competing since more than 20 years now, and have been to three world championships, but nothing compares to this here. This week has been a great experience,” says Thomas Le Cuyer (USA), bronze medal in 70 kg Men’s Grappling. To learn more about the World Combat Games 2010 in Beijing

SportAccord 2013
Written by Peter Goldsbury
Sunday, 10 April 2011 21:27
The SportAccord General Meeting was held in London on Saturday, April 8, 2011.
The IAF was represented at the General Meeting by Peter Goldsbury, IAF Chairman, Stefan Stenudd, IAF Vice-Chairman and August Dragt, IAF Assistant General Secretary. A special guest was Lydia la Riviere Zeijdel, who was the winner of a Spirit of Sport award for her work with the disabled.

During the General Meeting it was announced that the next SportAccord World Combat Games will be held in October 2013 in the Russian city of St Petersburg.

As one of the fifteen martial arts and combat sports federations within SportAccord, the IAF will be be present in St Petersburg and will give a demonstration. Nothing has been arranged yet, it is hoped that a large aikido training seminar will be held to coincide with the IAF demonstration.

Further news will be given in due course, but the preparation for the IAF demonstration starts NOW.

Peter Goldsbury
IAF Chairman"

Wow, your own organization agrees with me on terms like games, sports, martial arts athletes, etc.

Guess your out on that limb you speak about.....

 

[Twin Fist]

this is getting boring. FAST

have a nice day

We are talking about martial arts, not eating. All martial arts are sports, according to the definition of sport. You should crack a dictionary



Again, I'm quoting the dictionary, you may not like what it states and the facts might sound like hell, but it is fact and I know that stinks to hear that if you tend to make up your own definitions, but it is fact, look it up

"I never gave anybody hell! I just told the truth and they thought it was hell." ~ Truman, Harry S

 

[mastercole]

I am amused. You are trying SO hard to make aikido into something that it is not just to 'win' an argument. It's obvious you don't know much about aikido - you've just googled something to try to bolster your case.

From your very own source: http://www.aikido-international.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=15&Itemid=29

Here are some highlights that you might find interesting. I certainly did.

"As a member of the IWGA, the IAF has participated in the World Games. Though Aikido does not hold competitions, participation in the World Games is an important way of making aikido better known. The IAF participated in the last World Games, held in Germany in 2005. An aikido training course, open to everybody, is generally held on the occasion of these events.

The IAF also took part in the Sportaccord Combat Games, which took place in Beijing, China, in 2010. For these Games, over 70 participants assembled and gave demonstrations over three days. The demonstrations culminated in two special demonstrations given by shihans, Christian Tissier Shihan (7th dan) from the FFAAA (France) and Yoshiaki Yokota Shihan (7th dan), from the Aikikai Hombu Dojo in Japan. The next Sportaccord World Combat Games is planned for 2013. The IAF will participate in these Games and give an international demonstration."

Sounds like it was a good time. Lots of training seminars and demonstrations which are frequent activities in aikido gatherings.

The same article by Mr. Goldbury lists these achievements of the IAF.

"Since its foundation in 1976, the IAF has also been able to fulfil several important functions:​

1. The IAF has provided a means whereby aikido practitioners from all over the world can meet and practise the art together under the direction of high-ranking teachers, especially those teachers directly affiliated to the Aikikai Hombu.​

2. The IAF has provided an open forum in which aikido organisations affiliated to the Aikikai can meet in friendship and discuss matters of common interest.​

3. The IAF has provided a forum for discussion between these aikido organisations and instructors affiliated to the Aikikai Hombu who reside abroad.​

4. The IAF has, through its congresses and other meetings, provided an official channel of communication between aikido organisations and the Aikikai Hombu.​

5. At a national and a continental level, the IAF has, through its member federations, helped to sow the seeds of aikido on new ground: to introduce and spread the art in countries where it did not exist.​

6. The IAF has engaged in official contacts with various officially recognised sports bodies and has thus shown the face of aikido on occasions like the World Games and the Sportaccord Combat Games, where the art risks being misunderstood.
The risks of misunderstanding exist, because aikido is not a sport in one commonly-accepted sense of the term, for it does not hold competitions.​

7. The IAF’s status as a recognised international federation has been of great assistance in enabling some member federations to gain recognition from their own government authorities.
Not all members need such recognition, but some do—and this is a fact which is of some importance."​

So they are all about providing Hombu-related training activities while trying to foster awareness of aikido as a martial art world-wide. Laudable goals.

Sport? I think not.

Again, you are confused.

That is why I wrote: "they consider Aikido, a sport even though it may not YET be tournament material"

I never said they were competing against each other. But I did say the Aikido is a sport.

From their own words "aikido is not a sport in one commonly-accepted sense of the term, for it does not hold competitions.

But it is a sport in another commonly-accepted sense of the term, for it is "sport (spôrt). noun 1. any activity or experience that gives enjoyment or recreation; pastime; diversion

I think the Doshu would agree, shall we write him and find out?

 

[dancingalone]

I think the Doshu would agree, shall we write him and find out?

Go ahead.

 

[Twin Fist]

you guys are feeding the troll

 

[ralphmcpherson]

The problem is that within their own org some people get so high up that people dare not question them and follow them blindly. Then they come to an open forum where people have opinions that differ to theirs and arent afraid to voice them. They are not used to this and go into meltdown. This is a large part of the reason that we dont get involved with large orgs. Basically people try to deify themselves. Their opinion is just that, OPINION, not gospel.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Mastercole? Dancingalone? I think you're BOTH right.

Clearly the Navy SEALS are highly fit and perform athletically.Clearly they employ all of the cutting edge sport sciences relative to the pursuit of their specific goal.Clearly there are shooting tournies and competitions wherein high end competitors can go Force on Force against each other.Clearly,the SEALS and any other elite force worldwide are not participating in tournies,games,matches,etc. and they clearly use every bit of their activities--including the absolutely mandatory,absolutely vital athletic attributes that they've assiduously cultivated like the athletes that they are--in pursuit of sneaking and peeking,shooting and looting,and all that other fun stuff.

High end physical performance requires athletic training.Period.Full stop.This athletic training doesn't necessarily find its way into commonly understood means of athletic striving visavis sports.Period.Full stop. Therefore the Navy SEALS are clearly athletically gifted with sharply superior physical attributes that are assiduously cultivated by regular training...I mean,not just running,not just lifting weights or doing a gajillion pushups situps or whatever in the sand or the ocean.You can take drawing your gun,storming a house,CQB dynamic entries and exits,HALOs,exfils,reaching LZs and everything and format them into sport specific drills that absolutely mandate athletic attributes and merge them seamlessly with SD concerns that aren't remotely a part of what is commonly (mis)understood as athletics.

We take this exact same approach and apply it to civilian concerns in civilian martial arts.From tournies to civilian self defense.Sport methods,sport sciences,sport principles formatted for and reflecting whatever the specific activity is: defending yourself from a Red Man suited guy grabbing your wrist and rockin a knife in the other hand,or defending yourself from that lightning fast thunderously powerful kicking and punching Olympic demigod facing you.Or you might have to work all of these scenarios (with less athleticism but still significantly above the norm) when facing another guy in a kali or Gathering of the Packs kali tudo competition which translates DIRECTLY into self-defense AND sports without any real effort at all.Aikido guys practice SD but neither they nor anyone else can reliably execute their techs against resisting live opponents without athletic attributes.There may be methods wherein we can reduce the supremacy of athletic attributes but it's still crucial to performance...especially when the shtf.

In my Gym you will face all of them at once.Literally.There will be a guy grabbing you.Armed and/or unarmed,you won't know off top.You will be facing his buddies,any or all of whom may be "armed" with practice weapons which still pack a wallop.What you must achieve is directly dependant upon the specifics of the drill,and you have no chance of successfully doing ANYTHING whatsoever in these SD situations if you're not athletic...although the scenario you face is not at all one that you'll face in almost any competition (except Force on Force maybe).

So yeah.We're all in this together.

I'll sum this up by quoting an appropriate passage I saw years ago on the StraightBlastGym website:

"To sum up the street versus sports argument: Circumstances and tactics change, but the delivery systems, conditioning, and positions remain identical throughout. It is something that can be proven and shown within the realm of scenarios, resisting opponents, and the field. It's not open to speculation, although many wish it was. It is common sense really, but lost on many."

In my Gym,one of our guiding principles (and a part of my sig) is this:

IT'S NOT JUST WHAT YOU KNOW,IT'S HOW YOU TRAIN. Which means exactly the same thing...and then some.Lol.

 

[texas_rebel_1980]

in the school we go to, everyone spars. my children, 4,6,8,10 spar against everyone as well, including BBs. now the BBs don't blast them, but when they are not defending themselves or not using techniques they will pop them!

i just started and i spar everyone in the class. the instructor has us spar on wednesday nights and its round robin for two hours. i am beat after the class but love the lessons learned!

 

[ATACX GYM]

in the school we go to, everyone spars. my children, 4,6,8,10 spar against everyone as well, including BBs. now the BBs don't blast them, but when they are not defending themselves or not using techniques they will pop them!

i just started and i spar everyone in the class. the instructor has us spar on wednesday nights and its round robin for two hours. i am beat after the class but love the lessons learned!

Very glad to read this post,and your children are real troopers! Congrats to you your whole family and your instructor!

 

[achaeon]

I'm a white belt and I already spar. I find it very useful on how to practically apply what I'm learning.

 

[ks - learning to fly]

We start sparring at yellow belt and it is mandatory - especially for Dan testing where it's 2 on 1 - if you're not tested on what you've learned, how do you progress?? I love sparring!!