TKD school - sparring optional?

[ETinCYQX]

dancingalone, if I may ask, what did the redman suit run you cost wise? I'd like to have one in a lot of ways.

 

[puunui]

dancingalone, if I may ask, what did the redman suit run you cost wise? I'd like to have one in a lot of ways.

Apparently, there are all kinds of suits you can buy. The one that I have in my head,the instructor one, costs $1299.00.

http://www.redmangear.com/

 

[ETinCYQX]

Excellent Puunui, thanks. I'm going to be offering a dedicated self-defense course () and the Redman suit would allow me to train people live.

 

[mastercole]

I don't know the current retail price for one. I bought a demonstration suit from one of their reps years ago for $1500 or so and he said then I was getting a hefty discount. I am sure prices have come down since and they probably have improvements over the model I have. I've had it for about 5 years now and it's still going strong. I'm happy with the deal.

And yes, I've taken full force shots from students my size and more (190 lbs +) in the torso/sides without injury. You can still feel some pain if you get caught in the groin, but that's mainly due to the suit being compressed against your [tender] flesh and it does take a goodly amount of pop to be able to penetrate even so.

My main complaint about the suit is the inevitable loss of mobility the wearer has which affects the type of drills we're able to run with it. Nonetheless it is invaluable for letting your students cut loose every now and then, so they at least have experienced what it might be like to unleash disabling force against a live, aggressive attacker.

Years ago, several school in the Cleveland area went in together on Red Man and Blue Man suits. One school would use one for a month and pass it on.

Average students could hit it generally full force and the guy inside was OK, usually being a fighter himself, but when elite tournament fighters started kicking and punching it, no way, it was hurting the guy inside.

I think they have a use, just not for highly trained practitioners who already train full contact.

 

[dancingalone]

I think they have a use, just not for highly trained practitioners who already train full contact.

They're used all over the country, including by the reality-based SD people, as a training tool to permit students to do things like grab, tear, gouge, pummel, etc. against an attacker. You are probably right that groups like WTF athletes would have little use for it. 'Highly trained practitioners who train full contact' is perhaps too vague a descriptor.

 

[mastercole]

They're used all over the country, including by the reality-based SD people, as a training tool to permit students to do things like grab, tear, gouge, pummel, etc. against an attacker. You are probably right that groups like WTF athletes would have little use for it. 'Highly trained practitioners who train full contact' is perhaps too vague a descriptor.

'Highly trained practitioners who train full contact', that would be martial art athletes that train for full contact competitions, that would include WTF athletes as well.

Sure, regular students have a blast with the red/blue man suits, they are fun and exciting for them. My point was that athlete fighters hit way to hard, it cuts through that suit with ease. Martial arts athletes don't need that type of """""SD"""" training, they already have the right stuff, well, actually the stuff the athlete fighters have, the regular class students will never have unless they train like the athletes train and that does not involve jumping out from behind bushes and gouging at a red man suit.

Martial arts athletes will always have superior SD advantage over the regular student, no matter what kind of scenario training that student does, or who designs it for them.

 

[dancingalone]

'Highly trained practitioners who train full contact', that would be martial art athletes that train for full contact competitions, that would include WTF athletes as well.

You're being myopic. There are groups of people who train 'full contact' yet probably would not meet any definition of the word athlete, as they do not train for sporting competitions. That is what I mean by you overstretching. Just because you can't see a scenario where the Redman would be useful to YOU, doesn't mean others, nonetheless in a full contact methodology, won't find it valuable.

Unless you want to define full contact as kicking and punching only in a rules-based context which would allow you to set up your own self-fulfilling argument.

Sure, regular students have a blast with the red/blue man suits, they are fun and exciting for them. My point was that athlete fighters hit way to hard, it cuts through that suit with ease. Martial arts athletes don't need that type of """""SD"""" training, they already have the right stuff, well, actually the stuff the athlete fighters have, the regular class students will never have unless they train like the athletes train and that does not involve jumping out from behind bushes and gouging at a red man suit.

Martial arts athletes will always have superior SD advantage over the regular student, no matter what kind of scenario training that student does, or who designs it for them.

People with superior conditioning and technique will generally outperform average people. No argument there.

What you're writing tells me you do little in the way of training outside of kicking and punching, likely to a given subset of targets which are scorable. Equipment like Redman suits are very useful when you train for other goals with other bodily tools.

 

[mastercole]

You're being myopic. There are groups of people who train 'full contact' yet probably would not meet any definition of the word athlete, as they do not train for sporting competitions. That is what I mean by you overstretching.

In order to train for full contact, a person would have to work on speed, strength, agility, explosiveness, conditioning and sparring against fellow trainees in the training hall, etc., That would be an athlete by definition. Even though most people who train in such a way would attend tournaments, a person would not have to attend tournaments to be considered training for competition. Competition can be against their peers, in there own training hall. So maybe you are being myopic?

Just because you can't see a scenario where the Redman would be useful to YOU, doesn't mean others, nonetheless in a full contact methodology, won't find it valuable.

Are you being myopic? I find the redman and bluemax suits to be useful to me as an instructor, that is why I bought them. My students love them, it's a huge deal to bring them out and run drills. My fighters however were not impressed, and the guys inside the suits quickly pointed out that the suits offered little protection when being kicked and punched by the fighters.

Unless you want to define full contact as kicking and punching only in a rules-based context which would allow you to set up your own self-fulfilling argument.

Well developed, elite level kicking, punching, stepping, rolling with the punches or whatever type of technique work/hurt the same, no matter what the rules

People with superior conditioning and technique will generally outperform average people. No argument there.

That is my point.

What you're writing tells me you do little in the way of training outside of kicking and punching, likely to a given subset of targets which are scorable. Equipment like Redman suits are very useful when you train for other goals with other bodily tools.

Remember, I am talking about my fighters special full contact skills, not my regular students.
The fighters focus on attacking with full force gross motor skill techniques and avoiding attacks from the same. Do your fighters train that way?

My fighters spend around 6+ hours, 5 to 6 days a week training for 3 to 4 months during a cycle. Not all of them go to tournaments, but they all fight, very hard and at great risk.

How many hours day and days week, and months do your students spend gouging, chopping, knee and headbutting the redman?

 

[dancingalone]

In order to train for full contact, a person would have to work on speed, strength, agility, explosiveness, conditioning and sparring against fellow trainees in the training hall, etc., That would be an athlete by definition. Even though most people who train in such a way would attend tournaments, a person would not have to attend tournaments to be considered training for competition. Competition can be against their peers, in there own training hall. So maybe you are being myopic?

Athlete: a person who is trained or skilled in exercises, sports, or games requiring physical strength, agility, or stamina

Sounds like sports and games is synonymous with the word athlete, so many martial artists despite their excellent technique and physical conditioning would not fit the definition of 'athlete'. Martial artists can train for outcomes instead which can mean sport for you or other things like SD, personal growth, grounding or inner peace, etc.

You are VERY focused on the sport aspect and it colors everything you are saying right now. That's not a bad thing, but don't be shocked if others call you when you overreach and speak out of line for everyone else.

Are you being myopic? I find the redman and bluemax suits to be useful to me as an instructor, that is why I bought them. My students love them, it's a huge deal to bring them out and run drills. My fighters however were not impressed, and the guys inside the suits quickly pointed out that the suits offered little protection when being kicked and punched by the fighters.

Again, you're viewing everything through your lens of what is worthwhile for competition. Run some drills with the Redman with the defender using a rubber knife or wooden stick. It is useful because you can now whack the Redman guy right in the face with either weapon, whether the pain is completely eliminated or not doesn't matter, because without the suit you couldn't do it to begin with.

So, for a WTF athlete who is focused on kicking and punching with high impact to specific scoring targets, it's probably not so useful. Take the same WTF athlete and have her practice different things like a rape defense scenario with different starting assumptions (range for example) and I think the suit would be very useful.

Your mistake is trying to divide along the lines of athlete and nonathlete rather than activity vs. activity.

How many hours day and days week, and months do your students spend gouging, chopping, knee and headbutting the redman?

Rather more than yours apparently if you'll forgive me for being a little snarky.

 

[mastercole]

Athlete: a person who is trained or skilled in exercises, sports, or games requiring physical strength, agility, or stamina

Sounds like sports and games is synonymous with the word athlete, so many martial artists despite their excellent technique and physical conditioning would not fit the definition of 'athlete'.

That is according to you, because your focus matches your own agenda. You have ignored the first point of the above definition, "a person who is trained or skilled in exercises" with sports and games being 2nd and 3rd.

Martial artists can train for outcomes instead which can mean sport for you or other things like SD, personal growth, grounding or inner peace, etc.

For me, Martial arts do not have the meaning of tournaments (what you call sport). I never said that it held such a meaning for me, or my students. I was talking about my fighters.

You are VERY focused on the sport aspect and it colors everything you are saying right now.

Where did I say I was focused on the "sport" aspect? You are assuming that, I never said that. I was having a discussion on a narrow subject, athlete vs non athlete martial artist, you are jumping to conclusions.

That's not a bad thing, but don't be shocked if others call you when you overreach and speak out of line for everyone else.

Why would I be shocked by what someone has to say? Up to now, I am perfectly fine with what folks have been saying. BTW, no one needs you to tell them they are speaking out of line, everyone up to now is being civil. If you want to make those comments, I recommend you address them to yourself.

Again, you're viewing everything through your lens of what is worthwhile for competition.

A fight against your peer in the dojang and a fight on the street are both competitions. Maybe you want to say tournament? I'm not talking about tournaments.

Run some drills with the Redman with the defender using a rubber knife or wooden stick. It is useful because you can now whack the Redman guy right in the face with either weapon, whether the pain is completely eliminated or not doesn't matter, because without the suit you couldn't do it to begin with.

Done that for years. Did you read what I wrote about the Redman and Bluemax, I bought both.

So, for a WTF athlete who is focused on kicking and punching with high impact to specific scoring targets, it's probably not so useful.

You think it is impossible for a WTF athlete to decide to kick someone, full force in the groin, back or throat, or punch full force to their face?

Take the same WTF athlete and have her practice different things like a rape defense scenario with different starting assumptions (range for example) and I think the suit would be very useful.

She would knock the person in the suit out, not a good idea. Any thing she decided to do would be explosive and extremely powerful. She developed that skill already over the hours, days, months and years of full contact training. She don't need the redman, the other students who don't train like she does, they need it.

Your mistake is trying to divide along the lines of athlete and nonathlete rather than activity vs. activity.

No mistake here. I'm sure you remember the saying that goes something like "it's the dog in the fight that matters"

 

[puunui]

There are many skills that go into real world self defense that are not physical skills. Verbal skills are arguably more important than the physical skills, as they can often get you out of more situations than the physical skills can.

I think you'd be amazed at how elite athletes are trained in both verbal and non-verbal communication skills. Or at least they used to be. The higher you go, the more important these things become. Elite athletes are defending themselves, inside or outside of the ring.

 

[dancingalone]

That is according to you, because your focus matches your own agenda. You have ignored the first point of the above definition, "a person who is trained or skilled in exercises" with sports and games being 2nd and 3rd.

I had a feeling you would seize on that as an out. Think about it logically... does someone training for SD exclusively normally call himself an athlete or what he does 'athletics'? No. There's a reason for that - the word athlete is tied in completely into a sporting competition. If you want to ignore that, it's up to you, but it's not much of a position to stand upon.

For me, Martial arts do not have the meaning of tournaments (what you call sport). I never said that it held such a meaning for me, or my students. I was talking about my fighters.

Sorry, but when you use your 'fighters' almost exclusively as examples in the discussion, you connect sport/tournaments to a great degree to what you espouse.

Where did I say I was focused on the "sport" aspect? You are assuming that, I never said that. I was having a discussion on a narrow subject, athlete vs non athlete martial artist, you are jumping to conclusions.

That is the conclusion I must form when you have dodged my repeated attempts here and on the other thread to separate the level of practitioner (athlete vs. enthusiast to you) and discuss the value of training for specific activities instead, such as knife defense. Since you have refused to address my point given multiple opportunities to do so, I must conclude that all you are interested in is what you do within your sport methodology. If you want to call that tournament fighters, that is fine.

Why would I be shocked by what someone has to say? Up to now, I am perfectly fine with what folks have been saying. BTW, no one needs you to tell them they are speaking out of line, everyone up to now is being civil. If you want to make those comments, I recommend you address them to yourself.

The internet is a difficult medium to convey tone across in. I guess you don't consider it even possible that you might be giving umbrage by saying 1) it is not possible to train SD in martial arts and 2) Redman suits are useless for people who hit hard?

A fight against your peer in the dojang and a fight on the street are both competitions. Maybe you want to say tournament? I'm not talking about tournaments.

No, drilling is not competing, at least in my book. Starting off a training scenario where a Redman clad attacker has ahold of your arm and your goal is to get away from him is not competing.

You think it is impossible for a WTF athlete to decide to kick someone, full force in the groin, back or throat, or punch full force to their face?

It's possible.

She would knock the person in the suit out, not a good idea. Any thing she decided to do would be explosive and extremely powerful. She developed that skill already over the hours, days, months and years of full contact training. She don't need the redman, the other students who don't train like she does, they need it.

If you say so. Are you assuming the person in the Redman suit is some unskilled guy playing dummy? Let's just say I have found otherwise with regard to the efficacy of Redman training and I will put my hand strikes out there with anyone. Not everyone outside of tournaments is a so-called enthusiast.

It is like anything else. If you see no value in the suit for a given situation (yes even with big hitters like WTF athletes can be), you will not find a good use for it at all.

No mistake here. I'm sure you remember the saying that goes something like "it's the dog in the fight that matters"

Sure. That's true whether we are 'athletes' or not.

 

[puunui]

That is the conclusion I must form when you have dodged my repeated attempts here and on the other thread to separate the level of practitioner (athlete vs. enthusiast to you) and discuss the value of training for specific activities instead, such as knife defense. Since you have refused to address my point given multiple opportunities to do so, I must conclude that all you are interested in is what you do within your sport methodology. If you want to call that tournament fighters, that is fine.

I don't know if that would be an accurate conclusion though. Mastercole has a varied martial arts background including dan rank in Okinawan karate and Hapkido, in addition to holding master level rank in Kukki Taekwondo and Taekkyon. I don't know if I would necessarily peg him as a sport guy only, anymore than I would peg myself under that label. Even though we come from substantially different backgrounds, Mastercole and I sort of followed the same path, the path of two street kids who took an eclectic martial arts approach, primarily for "self defense" or fighting purposes, and eventually came to understand, appreciate and embrace all that Kukki Taekwondo has to offer.

 

[dancingalone]

I don't know if that would be an accurate conclusion though. Mastercole has a varied martial arts background including dan rank in Okinawan karate and Hapkido, in addition to holding master level rank in Kukki Taekwondo and Taekkyon. I don't know if I would necessarily peg him as a sport guy only, anymore than I would peg myself under that label. Even though we come from substantially different backgrounds, Mastercole and I sort of followed the same path, the path of two street kids who took an eclectic martial arts approach, primarily for "self defense" or fighting purposes, and eventually came to understand, appreciate and embrace all that Kukki Taekwondo has to offer.

I appreciate that. Really, I'm not even trying to say Master Cole is a sport guy only. I'm saying his responses to the discussions we are are having seem to come entirely from a sport context, at least from my perspective.

To wit, the insistence that no hard hitter would find a Redman of value in training. It definitely is of little value if we are going to spar and whack each other, possibly with knockout power. Yet if we are open minded and think about other usages, I think it's a great tool, even if the participants have top power strikes.

 

[mastercole]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Sullivan
There are many skills that go into real world self defense that are not physical skills. Verbal skills are arguably more important than the physical skills, as they can often get you out of more situations than the physical skills can.<<<

I think you'd be amazed at how elite athletes are trained in both verbal and non-verbal communication skills. Or at least they used to be. The higher you go, the more important these things become. Elite athletes are defending themselves, inside or outside of the ring.

Elite athlete do not compete in a sterile atmosphere, there are many distracting issues that come up, all over the place. As Puunui said, they become very well trained in these communications, how to defend against and attack with it as well. It's part of the psychology.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I think you'd be amazed at how elite athletes are trained in both verbal and non-verbal communication skills. Or at least they used to be. The higher you go, the more important these things become. Elite athletes are defending themselves, inside or outside of the ring.

Actually, I wouldn't be amazed. A lot of people have this idea that elite athlete, or athletes in general, never train for anything but competition, but I think that that is innacurate.

Most MA athletes are MA athletes because they love the martial arts, not because they just want trophies. Because the love MA, even though they may focus on competition, chances are, they are much more well rounded than many think that they are.

Daniel

 

[mastercole]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastercole
That is according to you, because your focus matches your own agenda. You have ignored the first point of the above definition, "a person who is trained or skilled in exercises" with sports and games being 2nd and 3rd.<<<

I had a feeling you would seize on that as an out. Think about it logically... does someone training for SD exclusively normally call himself an athlete or what he does 'athletics'? No. There's a reason for that - the word athlete is tied in completely into a sporting competition. If you want to ignore that, it's up to you, but it's not much of a position to stand upon.

It's not an out, it's a fact, there for you and I both to read and it shoots down your claim that an athlete is solely a term for tournament venues. Here is what is states again, for the record: Athlete: "a person who is trained or skilled in exercises"

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastercole
For me, Martial arts do not have the meaning of tournaments (what you call sport). I never said that it held such a meaning for me, or my students. I was talking about my fighters.<<<

Sorry, but when you use your 'fighters' almost exclusively as examples in the discussion, you connect sport/tournaments to a great degree to what you espouse.

First, all martial arts are sports. Second, not all of my fighters attend tournaments. I use my fighters exclusively in examples because that is what the discussion was about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastercole
Where did I say I was focused on the "sport" aspect? You are assuming that, I never said that. I was having a discussion on a narrow subject, athlete vs non athlete martial artist, you are jumping to conclusions.<<<

That is the conclusion I must form when you have dodged my repeated attempts here and on the other thread to separate the level of practitioner (athlete vs. enthusiast to you) and discuss the value of training for specific activities instead, such as knife defense. Since you have refused to address my point given multiple opportunities to do so, I must conclude that all you are interested in is what you do within your sport methodology. If you want to call that tournament fighters, that is fine.

The athlete vs. enthusiast are inherent to the discussion of specific activities. Kong Soo Do makes claim that "sport" training does not have much SD value, that scenarios based training does so we have to look at the type of martial artist these different types of training methods create or attract to determine the result. I have addressed your point, my position is no one is qualified to teach SD, well, maybe the street kid who is a mentor to another street kid, but martial arts does not have anything to do with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastercole
Why would I be shocked by what someone has to say? Up to now, I am perfectly fine with what folks have been saying. BTW, no one needs you to tell them they are speaking out of line, everyone up to now is being civil. If you want to make those comments, I recommend you address them to yourself.<<<

The internet is a difficult medium to convey tone across in. I guess you don't consider it even possible that you might be giving umbrage by saying 1) it is not possible to train SD in martial arts and 2) Redman suits are useless for people who hit hard?

It's my opinion. Don't be insulted. If you know otherwise, then no big deal. If you are not sure, and I shook your belief system tree, you might want to think about what I claim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastercole
A fight against your peer in the dojang and a fight on the street are both competitions. Maybe you want to say tournament? I'm not talking about tournaments.<<<

No, drilling is not competing, at least in my book.

Read above, I said fighting, I did not say drilling. Fighting is competing.

Starting off a training scenario where a Redman clad attacker has ahold of your arm and your goal is to get away from him is not competing.

That is competing.

All competitions are not tournaments

Competing: 1. to strive consciously or unconsciously for an objective (as position, profit, or a prize) : 2. be in a state of rivalry

1. What objective would I be striving for? A position (of freedom from redman)
2. I would be in a state of rivalry with? redman

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastercole
You think it is impossible for a WTF athlete to decide to kick someone, full force in the groin, back or throat, or punch full force to their face?<<<

It's possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastercole
She would knock the person in the suit out, not a good idea. Any thing she decided to do would be explosive and extremely powerful. She developed that skill already over the hours, days, months and years of full contact training. She don't need the redman, the other students who don't train like she does, they need it.<<<

If you say so. Are you assuming the person in the Redman suit is some unskilled guy playing dummy?

No, our dummy guy was Rob Cleek, Ohio State Taekwondo Association Gold Medalist, NCTA Collegiate Bronze Medalist, World Taekwondo Festival, Korea, Gold Medalist, to name a few.
He was, still is very skilled.

Let's just say I have found otherwise with regard to the efficacy of Redman training and I will put my hand strikes out there with anyone. Not everyone outside of tournaments is a so-called enthusiast.

You are way off the path here. I'm sure you got good skills, that was not my point.

It is like anything else. If you see no value in the suit for a given situation (yes even with big hitters like WTF athletes can be), you will not find a good use for it at all.

If you had read what I wrote about the suits, we have been using them for our students (not athletes) for over a decade now. I guess you could say I have a vast experience with these suits

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastercole
No mistake here. I'm sure you remember the saying that goes something like "it's the dog in the fight that matters"<<<

Sure. That's true whether we are 'athletes' or not.

 

[mastercole]

I appreciate that. Really, I'm not even trying to say Master Cole is a sport guy only. I'm saying his responses to the discussions we are are having seem to come entirely from a sport context, at least from my perspective.

To wit, the insistence that no hard hitter would find a Redman of value in training. It definitely is of little value if we are going to spar and whack each other, possibly with knockout power. Yet if we are open minded and think about other usages, I think it's a great tool, even if the participants have top power strikes.

Yes, I was limiting my comments to martial arts athletes, fighters, as the comments were that "sport" training had little SD value but scenario training did.

I was taking the fighters side of the debate. I was never talking about regular students.

 

[dancingalone]

I think we're hitting the point of diminishing returns, sir, but I will try once more.

It's not an out, it's a fact, there for you and I both to read and it shoots down your claim that an athlete is solely a term for tournament venues. Here is what is states again, for the record: Athlete: "a person who is trained or skilled in exercises"

Don't leave out the games and sports part of the definition, lest it becomes meaningless. If I engage in physical therapy exercises, am I an athlete? If I exercise my vocal chords in preparation for singing, am I an athlete? If exercise my mind with a Sudoku puzzle, am I an athlete.

As I've shown above, it would be pedantic to claim athletics does not have a contextual link to a sporting contest somehow.

First, all martial arts are sports. Second, not all of my fighters attend tournaments. I use my fighters exclusively in examples because that is what the discussion was about.

Not all martial arts are sports. We in Aikikai aikido have no sporting outlet although our Tomiki cousins do. There are many other examples such as old school Okinawan Te, which has no sparring within it.

As for the nature of the discussion, wellllllllll -

I have addressed your point, my position is no one is qualified to teach SD, well, maybe the street kid who is a mentor to another street kid, but martial arts does not have anything to do with it.

No. What you've done is repeated your assertion that that self-defense cannot be taught. Yet if I teach someone to block a punch or avoid a knife, is that not self-defense? Does learning repetitive physical skills to the point that they aid in pattern recognition and self-awareness not equate to self-defense?

To both, I would say yes.

It's my opinion. Don't be insulted. If you know otherwise, then no big deal. If you are not sure, and I shook your belief system tree, you might want to think about what I claim.

I've dedicated a lot of sweat and time to my martial arts over the years. I was a full-time martial artist for over ten years, actively learning all over the world in a variety of disciplines. Learning, not teaching in a dojang somewhere. So on some things such as the caliber of what I teach, SD included, I'm very serious about and I will passionately advocate or defend my methods to anyone willing to listen.

I do take your point however. I can overdo it at times.

Read above, I said fighting, I did not say drilling. Fighting is competing.

Arguably fighting is not competing. Do people in a sparring match fight? I suppose that depends on your perspective. I would say not which is why I stated drilling above as the operative term.

That is competing.

All competitions are not tournaments

Competing: 1. to strive consciously or unconsciously for an objective (as position, profit, or a prize) : 2. be in a state of rivalry

1. What objective would I be striving for? A position (of freedom from redman)
2. I would be in a state of rivalry with? redman

I guess you can look at it that way if you want. <shrugs> It is a drill to me, just like when we work basic throws with a partner.

No, our dummy guy was Rob Cleek, Ohio State Taekwondo Association Gold Medalist, NCTA Collegiate Bronze Medalist, World Taekwondo Festival, Korea, Gold Medalist, to name a few.
He was, still is very skilled.

So, Mr. Cleek was blasted each and every time he played attacker? That is more or less my point. The caliber and physical characteristics of the person wearing the suit in relation to the defender plays a definite role. The suit gives the wearer a good margin for error so he can play his role aggressively while at the same time permitting the defender more options and opportunities for striking than can be normally practiced sans suit.

You are way off the path here. I'm sure you got good skills, that was not my point.

I only bring up myself and by extension my students as an example because you felt the suit was useless when people can hit very hard. We physically condition ourselves and our striking weapons. We use makiwara. We can punch. Hard.

If you had read what I wrote about the suits, we have been using them for our students (not athletes) for over a decade now. I guess you could say I have a vast experience with these suits

Possibly. I will let this drop. I am not interested in saying you are wrong or ignorant.

 

[Twin Fist]

First, all martial arts are sports.

bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt

wrong answer thanks for playing.

just because you can do something in a competition setting, doesnt make it a sport, unless you think speed eating is a sport too....



i am starting to value your opinion......less