TKD is Weak on the street as a self defense?

[Gerry Seymour]

Was that the one where you had to force people to strike you in a manner that was not technically correct based on the hope that someone would punch in that manner in a street fight?

And the reason for that was your techniques just didn't work if the person was striking you in a technically correct manner?

I think you were saying when you spar your guys don't produce enough energy to Aiki. But then you dont just put on a set of 16,s and say just punch me as hard as you can to get that energy.

Yeah, the one where I showed you a video of a dozen people or so, in actual street altercations, making precisely the mistake of over-commitment that takes advantage of. And every technique - all of them in every art - fail if someone doesn't give the right set-up. A jab won't work if the guy's too far away, and there's not much that's more reliable than a jab.

And, no, I didn't say we don't create enough energy for it when sparring. I said we don't often commit the energy in the way that makes aiki techniques available, because we train not to provide that opening. As you know, one of the problems in sparring against the same art is that you face an art that defends against itself.

Your training is based on the other guy being awfull. He has to be slow and technically incorrect. If he is fast or technically correct or both you wont have trained for that. And then have to overcome this big issue of an actual fight having just different and more dangerous dynamics.

So yeah. Not good training methodology.

And this is the fallacy you made then and continue to commit to. You ignore that this is only one portion of our training, though that was explained to you BEFORE you first made this comment about my training approach. It's like saying BJJ is bad training because it can only work if the guy crawls between your legs, and can't handle any other position on the ground - a gross mischaracterization.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Exept that wasnt the argument. The argument was that a gym is a steralised environment.

And in this case does not include slippery surfaces. Which is an incorrect premis to base an argument off.

This is how slippery a jigsaw mat can physically get. Now extreme example. But still.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=398998123565524

I never characterized it (at least not intentionally) as sterile. It has low variability, but that's not the same. And those mats have been hosed down and look to even have soap on them. I've never been on a mat that was anywhere near that slippery. Even with some accumulation of sweat on a wrestling mat surface, it's maybe as slippery as that dewy grass you tried kicks on. And most mats won't even get that slippery, especially the tatami-surface ones that are so popular. Now, if someone has mats that get that slippery, they probably get really good at the math for slippery surfaces - which actually supports my point. I never said you can't create variability in the school - it's just easier to find it right outside.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Exept we now have an example of never train head kicks because of the risk in the street. So while you may not fall in to that trap. It is definitely present.

Working on grass also is not a self defence only method. Plenty of people train on grass.

I never said it was a SD-only method. I don't know what everyone else trains. I suspect it's often done out of convenience (that's how I got started doing it). You appear to want me to be bashing sport training, or saying there's something wrong with it (maybe that's why you spend so much time trying to make my training awful). I've said it before and will probably say it to others later: good training is good training, and good sport training (for the right rules) is good preparation for fighting and defense.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

One of gpseymours posts reminded me.

As well as environmental training. You are sparring hard with risk as well?

(And by risk. I mean at least the chance of getting knocked out or dropped)

Given that pace and intent is almost a constant in fighting in general and in my opinion more of a game changer than a lot of training to reality concerns.

The risk of getting knocked out is pretty low in most SD schools. The risk of grappling injuries tends to be higher. For some reason, most SD folks are more okay with going to work with a dislocated finger than a black eye, though the latter is the lesser injury. For some of us, we accept a lesser intensity in training to guard against head injury. If I still coached soccer, I'd wouldn't teach kids to head the ball, either, except for floaters.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Because the self defence focus can quite often run counter to functional training.

So for example say I do go out and train on a set of stairs. If I was to use the same techniques or intensity as I would on a flat matted surface. Someone is going to get crippled.

So the more I train on stairs the more I avoid functional training. It is quite simply time spent doing A or time spent doing B.

Do you have evidence to support that a single session on an uneven surface (stairs, stacked mats, etc.) at lower intensity produces less learning than a full-intensity session on a flat surface? Or is that just an assertion you make without evidence?

 

[JR 137]

I’m getting ready to shovel a couple inches of snow here. This thread just inspired me to go out and run through some punches, kicks, and spar with my 4 and 7 year old daughters before I shovel away all that potential training goodness.

Any requests before I get at it? I’ll try my best in the name of MA.

Or maybe I’ll wait for the guy who walks his chihuahua every day to walk by and start a fight with him. I’ll tie the dog’s leash to the porch so nothing skews my findings. No way I’m messing with the guy with the bull mastiff though. I’m pretty sure I can take him, but there’s no way I’m messing with him when he’s got Hooch by his side. I’d wait for the mailman, but it’s Sunday. Him carrying pepper spray makes it even better. Never mind; fighting the mailman might be a federal offense. I’ve got to draw the line there.

Edit: Wait a minute! I forgot my dojo has our annual Christmas party this afternoon! I’ll see if there’s any takers to a friendly challenge in the lawn out back. I’ll be sure to report my potential findings.

 

[drop bear]

Do you have evidence to support that a single session on an uneven surface (stairs, stacked mats, etc.) at lower intensity produces less learning than a full-intensity session on a flat surface? Or is that just an assertion you make without evidence?

Well I have done it of course.

And you have not produced evidence of anything so honestly pretty late in the game.

 

[drop bear]

I’m getting ready to shovel a couple inches of snow here. This thread just inspired me to go out and run through some punches, kicks, and spar with my 4 and 7 year old daughters before I shovel away all that potential training goodness.

Any requests before I get at it? I’ll try my best in the name of MA.

Or maybe I’ll wait for the guy who walks his chihuahua every day to walk by and start a fight with him. I’ll tie the dog’s leash to the porch so nothing skews my findings. No way I’m messing with the guy with the bull mastiff though. I’m pretty sure I can take him, but there’s no way I’m messing with him when he’s got Hooch by his side. I’d wait for the mailman, but it’s Sunday. Him carrying pepper spray makes it even better. Never mind; fighting the mailman might be a federal offense. I’ve got to draw the line there.

Edit: Wait a minute! I forgot my dojo has our annual Christmas party this afternoon! I’ll see if there’s any takers to a friendly challenge in the lawn out back. I’ll be sure to report my potential findings.

For our gym break up we are getting a bouncy castle. For the street.

 

[drop bear]

And this is the fallacy you made then and continue to commit to. You ignore that this is only one portion of our training, though that was explained to you BEFORE you first made this comment about my training approach. It's like saying BJJ is bad training because it can only work if the guy crawls between your legs, and can't handle any other position on the ground - a gross mischaracterization

OK. So only a portion of your training is I'll advised. And then what. When you spar and just can't pull off the moves in the drills assume it will be different in the street?

Yeah, the one where I showed you a video of a dozen people or so, in actual street altercations, making precisely the mistake of over-commitment that takes advantage of. And every technique - all of them in every art - fail if someone doesn't give the right set-up. A jab won't work if the guy's too far away, and there's not much that's more reliable than a jab.

And, no, I didn't say we don't create enough energy for it when sparring. I said we don't often commit the energy in the way that makes aiki techniques available, because we train not to provide that opening. As you know, one of the problems in sparring against the same art is that you face an art that defends against itself.

And so I am thinking yes. You are hoping on the street it will work out better for you than in training. OK if you want energy to perform a move you have to learn how to create it. Not just tell the guy to provide it for you.

I never characterized it (at least not intentionally) as sterile. It has low variability, but that's not the same. And those mats have been hosed down and look to even have soap on them. I've never been on a mat that was anywhere near that slippery. Even with some accumulation of sweat on a wrestling mat surface, it's maybe as slippery as that dewy grass you tried kicks on. And most mats won't even get that slippery, especially the tatami-surface ones that are so popular. Now, if someone has mats that get that slippery, they probably get really good at the math for slippery surfaces - which actually supports my point. I never said you can't create variability in the school - it's just easier to find it right outside.

So when it was said mats were sterile and you just jumped on board you were arguing a different definition of sterile which you again just did not tell anybody about.

Otherwise I think you are making a bunch of conflicting points there.

My point was you can slip over on mats. So it is a variable surface.

 

[drop bear]

The risk of getting knocked out is pretty low in most SD schools. The risk of grappling injuries tends to be higher. For some reason, most SD folks are more okay with going to work with a dislocated finger than a black eye, though the latter is the lesser injury. For some of us, we accept a lesser intensity in training to guard against head injury. If I still coached soccer, I'd wouldn't teach kids to head the ball, either, except for floaters.

The lesser vs greater intensity makes such a large mechanical difference unfortunately I would have to take you in to a gym and beat you up to explain it. (Which is how I worked it out)

But is a big reason why you see these wing chun systems struggle at speed. Why you see moves like defensive hand trapping. Standing arm bars and a whole bunch of stuff that have worked in drills or light sparring just no longer work when the pace is on.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well I have done it of course.

And you have not produced evidence of anything so honestly pretty late in the game.

What assertions have I made that require evidence? I have only asserted what benefit I got from training on different surfaces, and that others might get some of those benefits. You're claiming that training for any period on a different surface is actually detrimental to functional training. Yours is surely more in need of support by evidence, since mine is based (and stated as such) upon my experience. Experience can't cover such a broad claim as you've made.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The lesser vs greater intensity makes such a large mechanical difference unfortunately I would have to take you in to a gym and beat you up to explain it. (Which is how I worked it out)

But is a big reason why you see these wing chun systems struggle at speed. Why you see moves like defensive hand trapping. Standing arm bars and a whole bunch of stuff that have worked in drills or light sparring just no longer work when the pace is on.

I understand the difference it makes, because I've done some hard sparring (and some fighting). We (actually, you and I) have previously discussed the compromises that people have to make in training. I've made compromises to protect my brain. I've also made some to avoid injury that probably was me being too cautious. Not always, but probably more often than was necessary. And more with striking than with grappling, by a long shot. I've sparred hard enough to find out what it's like to get hit (not much different from being hit really hard by a soccer ball, oddly), but only just enough.

I'm an odd mix of risk taker and very cautious.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

OK. So only a portion of your training is I'll advised. And then what. When you spar and just can't pull off the moves in the drills assume it will be different in the street?



And so I am thinking yes. You are hoping on the street it will work out better for you than in training. OK if you want energy to perform a move you have to learn how to create it. Not just tell the guy to provide it for you.



So when it was said mats were sterile and you just jumped on board you were arguing a different definition of sterile which you again just did not tell anybody about.

Otherwise I think you are making a bunch of conflicting points there.

My point was you can slip over on mats. So it is a variable surface.

As I said before, every art, every style, has some bits that don't work under some circumstances. I have stuff that doesn't come available against someone with the same training. I have some stuff that is less likely to be available against anyone trained and in control (drunk or angry, and that changes). There's even some stuff that falls in both categories. There's also a group of stuff that doesn't work against someone kicking, some stuff that doesn't work against guys standing up, stuff that doesn't work against guys on the ground, stuff that doesn't work against people 8" taller than me, and so on. Everything has its place and time.

And if you see a bunch of different points, perhaps that's because you've led the discussion in a dozen different directions, in an attempt to keep from having to defend any of your points?

 

[drop bear]

What assertions have I made that require evidence? I have only asserted what benefit I got from training on different surfaces, and that others might get some of those benefits. You're claiming that training for any period on a different surface is actually detrimental to functional training. Yours is surely more in need of support by evidence, since mine is based (and stated as such) upon my experience. Experience can't cover such a broad claim as you've made.

Pretty sure experience can cover my claim there.

 

[drop bear]

As I said before, every art, every style, has some bits that don't work under some circumstances. I have stuff that doesn't come available against someone with the same training. I have some stuff that is less likely to be available against anyone trained and in control (drunk or angry, and that changes). There's even some stuff that falls in both categories. There's also a group of stuff that doesn't work against someone kicking, some stuff that doesn't work against guys standing up, stuff that doesn't work against guys on the ground, stuff that doesn't work against people 8" taller than me, and so on. Everything has its place and time.

And if you see a bunch of different points, perhaps that's because you've led the discussion in a dozen different directions, in an attempt to keep from having to defend any of your points?

I have some stuff that is less likely to be available against anyone trained and in control (drunk or angry, and that changes). There's even some stuff that falls in both categories.


And you still don't see the massive issue with this?

 

[drop bear]

I understand the difference it makes, because I've done some hard sparring (and some fighting). We (actually, you and I) have previously discussed the compromises that people have to make in training. I've made compromises to protect my brain. I've also made some to avoid injury that probably was me being too cautious. Not always, but probably more often than was necessary. And more with striking than with grappling, by a long shot. I've sparred hard enough to find out what it's like to get hit (not much different from being hit really hard by a soccer ball, oddly), but only just enough.

I'm an odd mix of risk taker and very cautious.

I really don't think you get it. You can spar hard and not come to good conclusions.

It took me ages. I blamed the other guys skill set. Or assumed he had some magical property I didn't. Maybe my technique was lacking. All sorts of things.

And it really has a lot to do with what you prioritize. If you prioritize things that work. Like say TKD and just kicking heads off. You will have a system that works. If you prioritize things that are less important like fighting on an uneven surface. You pretty much wind up with a system that doesn't work.

As a side note this is also why BJJ black belts don't do as well as they should in MMA.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Pretty sure experience can cover my claim there.

Nope. Your experience didn't show any loss of learning by the short time spent outside. You've claimed that spending time training on grass actually takes away from functional learning. That's a claim your quick experience on grass doesn't seem to support in any meaningful way.

Furthermore, if it DID support it, that's a single instance. That, brother, is what "anecdotal evidence" is - a single data point that can't be used to draw statistical inferences without additional data to work with.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have some stuff that is less likely to be available against anyone trained and in control (drunk or angry, and that changes). There's even some stuff that falls in both categories.


And you still don't see the massive issue with this?

No, because nothing I've ever trained, in any art, it always available. Some makes handling big people easier. Some makes handling angry people easier. Some makes handling strong people easier. And so on. It's tools for given situations. Much of BJJ doesn't work if the other guy is standing up, or if you are for that matter. That's not a problem with BJJ, it's just a natural limitation of the tools in question.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I really don't think you get it. You can spar hard and not come to good conclusions.

It took me ages. I blamed the other guys skill set. Or assumed he had some magical property I didn't. Maybe my technique was lacking. All sorts of things.

And it really has a lot to do with what you prioritize. If you prioritize things that work. Like say TKD and just kicking heads off. You will have a system that works. If you prioritize things that are less important like fighting on an uneven surface. You pretty much wind up with a system that doesn't work.

As a side note this is also why BJJ black belts don't do as well as they should in MMA.

So, because you made excuses, I can't learn from my sparring? When I get my *** handed to me, I assume it's because the other guy and/or his toolset are better. Then I work to figure out what probably caused it. If he's just a monster, I'll write that off - I'm not training hard enough to handle monsters. If he out-skills me badly, that's probably a problem with my techniques (what I trained in), unless he's training some insane amount. If my tools just don't work when I expected them to, then that's probably a problem with my techniques.

So, if I am just outclassed, I have work to do to figure out if it's because of my training (how much/well I trained) or my toolbox (what I trained in). If it's how much I trained, that's just part of the compromise I made to do what else I wanted in life. If it's how well I trained, that's a problem with my training approach. If it's the toolbox, I need to train something new.

 

[drop bear]

No, because nothing I've ever trained, in any art, it always available. Some makes handling big people easier. Some makes handling angry people easier. Some makes handling strong people easier. And so on. It's tools for given situations. Much of BJJ doesn't work if the other guy is standing up, or if you are for that matter. That's not a problem with BJJ, it's just a natural limitation of the tools in question.

What you are suggesting there is nothing like bjj being ground focused. BJJ will actually fight people on the ground. You are making an Aikido guy pretend to punch like a drunk person might.