TKD is Weak on the street as a self defense?

[Gerry Seymour]

The whole appeal of SD focussed schools was that they moved straight into skill building and application, avoiding (or minimising) forms and impractical elements.

I don't see this as a unique characteristic of SD schools. I'd expect a good sport-oriented school to do this, as well.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ummm...no. It is exactly what I teach, and I teach it for a reason. Head kicks are nice and flashy and showy and great for practicing technique, but they are not practical for self defense. Your balance is better and your kicks are stronger if you keep them at the belt line or lower.

I disagree, because you state this as an absolute. Just as a kick to the head can end an MMA fight, it can end an attack on the street. If the situation is right, a high kick can be the right tool. I actively practice high front kicks to about chin height. A kick like that, delivered in the right situation, is more likely to end a fight than any punch I'm likely to deliver. I haven't figured a way to practice them safely enough (for my preference) with live partners, so I might not recognize the opening for them, but I want them in my toolbag.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I disagree, because you state this as an absolute. Just as a kick to the head can end an MMA fight, it can end an attack on the street. If the situation is right, a high kick can be the right tool. I actively practice high front kicks to about chin height. A kick like that, delivered in the right situation, is more likely to end a fight than any punch I'm likely to deliver. I haven't figured a way to practice them safely enough (for my preference) with live partners, so I might not recognize the opening for them, but I want them in my toolbag.

Just put on pads and headgear. It's not a big deal. People have been practicing high kicks safely for decades...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Just put on pads and headgear. It's not a big deal. People have been practicing high kicks safely for decades...

It's that kick to the chin I don't like the idea of - the force straight into the chin, or mis-delivered into the neck or nose. Rounds and such are a different story (and I'm only moderately capable of delivering them at head height - probably only to someone my own height).

 

[Dirty Dog]

It's that kick to the chin I don't like the idea of - the force straight into the chin, or mis-delivered into the neck or nose. Rounds and such are a different story (and I'm only moderately capable of delivering them at head height - probably only to someone my own height).

Use headgear with a face shield, like THIS or THIS. The odds of hitting the throat are minuscule. Or practice developing control. That works too.
As someone who has been kicking heads for a couple of years now, I think you're worrying too much.

 

[DaveB]

Now I know you’re a bite sized chunks guys. I’ll talk to you in short sentences from now on. No more than a few at a time.

Twitter version: You don’t need to teach someone to fight on wet grass explicitly in order to prepare them to fight on wet grass. If you teach them skills they actually use, and to be flexible and creative, they will learn to solve problems.

What was it about my comment that made you think you needed to repeat yourself?

And where did you get the idea that I only read short posts?

It seems that more and more of what you apparently "know", is based on what you can mischaracterise in your head.

I wonder if getting to the bottom of this latter mystery will solve the fundamental communication gap were having?

 

[Steve]

What was it about my comment that made you think you needed to repeat yourself?

And where did you get the idea that I only read short posts?

It seems that more and more of what you apparently "know", is based on what you can mischaracterise in your head.

I wonder if getting to the bottom of this latter mystery will solve the fundamental communication gap were having?

why are you so angry?

 

[DaveB]

why are you so angry?

Another mischaracterisation.

I suppose some people are just destined to talk at cross purposes.

 

[Steve]

Another mischaracterisation.

I suppose some people are just destined to talk at cross purposes.

may be. You seem really agitated to me.

 

[DaveB]

may be. You seem really agitated to me.

Not even a little bit. Just genuinely baffled by your understanding of, and responses to the posts in this thread.

 

[drop bear]

No, I just get frustrated when someone - in this case, you - attacks my training for something it isn't. You did that on at least three occasions back when we were discussing the application of Aiki principles (claiming at least twice that my training was based upon hoping the other guy was awful,

Was that the one where you had to force people to strike you in a manner that was not technically correct based on the hope that someone would punch in that manner in a street fight?

And the reason for that was your techniques just didn't work if the person was striking you in a technically correct manner?

I think you were saying when you spar your guys don't produce enough energy to Aiki. But then you dont just put on a set of 16,s and say just punch me as hard as you can to get that energy.

Your training is based on the other guy being awfull. He has to be slow and technically incorrect. If he is fast or technically correct or both you wont have trained for that. And then have to overcome this big issue of an actual fight having just different and more dangerous dynamics.

So yeah. Not good training methodology.

 

[drop bear]

It's inarguable that there's more variability outside a dojo than inside one.

Exept that wasnt the argument. The argument was that a gym is a steralised environment.

And in this case does not include slippery surfaces. Which is an incorrect premis to base an argument off.

This is how slippery a jigsaw mat can physically get. Now extreme example. But still.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=398998123565524

 

[drop bear]

See, this is one of those strawmen. We do actually do some of that. And some of that examination is done by working outside the dojo, to see what changes. You know, like working on grass, maybe even wet grass.

Exept we now have an example of never train head kicks because of the risk in the street. So while you may not fall in to that trap. It is definitely present.

Working on grass also is not a self defence only method. Plenty of people train on grass.

 

[Steve]

Not even a little bit. Just genuinely baffled by your understanding of, and responses to the posts in this thread.

try being the statistician.

 

[DaveB]

I don't see this as a unique characteristic of SD schools. I'd expect a good sport-oriented school to do this, as well.

Not suggesting it's unique, simply that Steve's view of SD focus as avoiding functional application training is incorrect.

 

[DaveB]

try being the statistician.

Except I'm not the only one whose had to correct your interpretation of the conversation.

 

[Steve]

Except I'm not the only one whose had to correct your interpretation of the conversation.

Yeah. Skribs. Right.

 

[drop bear]

Not suggesting it's unique, simply that Steve's view of SD focus as avoiding functional application training is incorrect.

One of gpseymours posts reminded me.

As well as environmental training. You are sparring hard with risk as well?

(And by risk. I mean at least the chance of getting knocked out or dropped)

Given that pace and intent is almost a constant in fighting in general and in my opinion more of a game changer than a lot of training to reality concerns.

 

[drop bear]

Not suggesting it's unique, simply that Steve's view of SD focus as avoiding functional application training is incorrect.

Because the self defence focus can quite often run counter to functional training.

So for example say I do go out and train on a set of stairs. If I was to use the same techniques or intensity as I would on a flat matted surface. Someone is going to get crippled.

So the more I train on stairs the more I avoid functional training. It is quite simply time spent doing A or time spent doing B.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Use headgear with a face shield, like THIS or THIS. The odds of hitting the throat are minuscule. Or practice developing control. That works too.
As someone who has been kicking heads for a couple of years now, I think you're worrying too much.

The face shield is probably the right answer. Somewhere I have one set of headgear with that. And, yeah, I probably am worrying too much about the throat. I've never actively used that kick to that target in sparring, so don't have any experience to base expectations on. Thanks for the input!