TKD is Weak on the street as a self defense?

[Gerry Seymour]

In sport that would be called ring craft.

But situational concerns pretty much are the primary differences in the street sport debate.

Agreed. And I suspect folks who are ring-trained are more situationally aware than folks who are trained without either ring craft or specific situational training. SD training often goes a bit beyond, to actually training on different surfaces to give some direct exposure to the principles. Done right, it likely (no real way to measure it, so we'll never have a "certainly" there) produces a bit better application of the principles outside the ring than basic ring craft, but by a margin, not by orders of magnitude.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Which comes back to this mental elasticity thing I was trying to suggest in another thread.

Unfortunately I think street sport differences as it is generally discussed is the reverse of this.

I'm not sure I caught the meaning of the last sentence, DB.

But, yeah, it's about elasticity. Train for a few differences, and you become better able to handle the ones you didn't get around to training for. Uneven surfaces provide some application to stairs (and vice-versa). Gravel provides some application to wet grass. A corner gives some application to a narrow hallway, etc.

 

[drop bear]

I'm not sure I caught the meaning of the last sentence, DB.

But, yeah, it's about elasticity. Train for a few differences, and you become better able to handle the ones you didn't get around to training for. Uneven surfaces provide some application to stairs (and vice-versa). Gravel provides some application to wet grass. A corner gives some application to a narrow hallway, etc.

Well it think you can just get too concerned about your specific circumstance. And because people who teach street have a vested interest in these differences being fundamental.

Suddenly they think there are all these specialized methods that are required to fight under all these specialized circumstances.

For example not being able to use TKD on wet grass and so having to switch to shotokan.

Two systems because the surface is a bit hinky?

Not practical from a self defence point of view.

 

[Dirty Dog]

For example not being able to use TKD on wet grass and so having to switch to shotokan.

Two systems because the surface is a bit hinky?

Not practical from a self defence point of view.

There’s a big difference between not being able to use a small portion of Tae Kwon Do and not being able to use Tae Kwon Do.


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[Gerry Seymour]

Well it think you can just get too concerned about your specific circumstance. And because people who teach street have a vested interest in these differences being fundamental.

Suddenly they think there are all these specialized methods that are required to fight under all these specialized circumstances.

For example not being able to use TKD on wet grass and so having to switch to shotokan.

Two systems because the surface is a bit hinky?

Not practical from a self defence point of view.

I can’t speak to TKD, but in all the arts I’m familiar enough with to comment, it would be a matter to selecting techniques, not selecting systems. And selecting techniques is what we do all the time - we pick the techniques that fit the situation.

You’re over-generalizing “people who teach for the street”. That’s never useful.

 

[Steve]

Agreed. And I suspect folks who are ring-trained are more situationally aware than folks who are trained without either ring craft or specific situational training. SD training often goes a bit beyond, to actually training on different surfaces to give some direct exposure to the principles. Done right, it likely (no real way to measure it, so we'll never have a "certainly" there) produces a bit better application of the principles outside the ring than basic ring craft, but by a margin, not by orders of magnitude.

Here is the thing. Most of the time, guys who talk about training in the grass are doing so as an alternative to “sport”training. It’s generally what follows a statement like, “so, are you ever going to have wet grass in the cage?”

My belief is that without some kind of application, training in the grass won’t be particularly helpful. In other words, if you don’t actuall fight, you won’t really be at a point to understand fighting on a wet surface.

If you aren’t a cop, bouncer, or other professionally violent person, and don’t compete, chances are good you have more fundamental gaps in your skills than fighting on wet grass.

 

[drop bear]

I can’t speak to TKD, but in all the arts I’m familiar enough with to comment, it would be a matter to selecting techniques, not selecting systems. And selecting techniques is what we do all the time - we pick the techniques that fit the situation.

You’re over-generalizing “people who teach for the street”. That’s never useful.

As a trend.

When people talk about the street at all it is generalising. Slipping on wet grass or likley responses from bad guys is generalising.

There might not be grass. It might be grippy. If it is slippery you still moght not slip over. I mean why suddenly pull this card now?

 

[drop bear]

There’s a big difference between not being able to use a small portion of Tae Kwon Do and not being able to use Tae Kwon Do.


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I was refering to this specifically. But it is not uncommon.

My point was that the years of sport tkd training I did were all centred around a safe obstacle free environment, against a single opponent with no kicking below the waist or punching to the face etc etc. When i sparred with a wing chun training friend in his garden one morning I suddenly found myself unable to use my entire tkd arsenal because the ground was too slippery. I had to call back on my SD oriented Shotokan training.

Shoes vs no shoes this comes up. Having the exact training knife you carry. Those sorts of things.

For ring fighting you may get about 10 seconds if you are lucky to get a feel for the surface you are competing on. You get given a set of gloves you have never worn before and just expected to get on with it.

 

[drop bear]

Here is the thing. Most of the time, guys who talk about training in the grass are doing so as an alternative to “sport”training. It’s generally what follows a statement like, “so, are you ever going to have wet grass in the cage?”

My belief is that without some kind of application, training in the grass won’t be particularly helpful. In other words, if you don’t actuall fight, you won’t really be at a point to understand fighting on a wet surface.

If you aren’t a cop, bouncer, or other professionally violent person, and don’t compete, chances are good you have more fundamental gaps in your skills than fighting on wet grass.

On concrete (The ground is lava) is the big kicker. Because you don't really want to be throwing people in training. So the environment might be realistic. But then you cut corners in your fundementals.

 

[drop bear]

I can’t speak to TKD, but in all the arts I’m familiar enough with to comment, it would be a matter to selecting techniques, not selecting systems. And selecting techniques is what we do all the time - we pick the techniques that fit the situation.

You’re over-generalizing “people who teach for the street”. That’s never useful.

i mean just to back this up. You are over generalising grass.

And.FLAMINGO.

Not wet enough?

not enough birthing agent?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Here is the thing. Most of the time, guys who talk about training in the grass are doing so as an alternative to “sport”training. It’s generally what follows a statement like, “so, are you ever going to have wet grass in the cage?”

My belief is that without some kind of application, training in the grass won’t be particularly helpful. In other words, if you don’t actuall fight, you won’t really be at a point to understand fighting on a wet surface.

If you aren’t a cop, bouncer, or other professionally violent person, and don’t compete, chances are good you have more fundamental gaps in your skills than fighting on wet grass.

Sparring with intent on grass is possible. I’ve spent more time drilling on it. Having trained on grass, I can say with certainty that it improved my fighting ability. As with any training, the more live at least part of it gets, the more you learn. I know your view on “application”, and we differ fundamentally, so I won’t drag us back down that rabbit hole.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

As a trend.

When people talk about the street at all it is generalising. Slipping on wet grass or likley responses from bad guys is generalising.

There might not be grass. It might be grippy. If it is slippery you still moght not slip over. I mean why suddenly pull this card now?

That’s the opposite of generalizing. And there’s nothing sudden about it. I’ve trained on varied surfaces (on my own and in class) off and on for the last 30 years. Sometimes for pleasure, sometimes for the experimce, sometimes for both.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

i mean just to back this up. You are over generalising grass.

And.FLAMINGO.

Not wet enough?

not enough birthing agent?

What have any of those to do with my statements?

 

[Steve]

Sparring with intent on grass is possible. I’ve spent more time drilling on it. Having trained on grass, I can say with certainty that it improved my fighting ability. As with any training, the more live at least part of it gets, the more you learn. I know your view on “application”, and we differ fundamentally, so I won’t drag us back down that rabbit hole.

Not exactly what I meant. I meant to say that if you don’t know how to fight on dry grass, training on wet grass won’t help. This sounds like common sense, I know.

My view on application is just real life. Once I figure out how to explain it, it will also seem like common sense to reasonable people. It will click for you, someday.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not exactly what I meant. I meant to say that if you don’t know how to fight on dry grass, training on wet grass won’t help. This sounds like common sense, I know.

It is...or should be. Not sure how I missed that in your previous posts.

 

[drop bear]

What have any of those to do with my statements?

That slipping on wet grass doesnt always happen.


It was a generalization.

Which aparently is never useful.

The whole conversation is built on the generalization that people will slip on wet grass throwing flash kicks.

But it seems generalising is only bad when I do it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That slipping on wet grass doesnt always happen.


It was a generalization.

Which aparently is never useful.

The whole conversation is built on the generalization that people will slip on wet grass throwing flash kicks.

But it seems generalising is only bad when I do it.

Where did I say slipping in wet grass always happens?

There is a difference between generalizing and over-generalizing. One is a useful way to encompass a range of similarities. The other ignores important distinctions, like claiming “people who teach street” teach specialized systems or techniques for different surfaces.

 

[drop bear]

Where did I say slipping in wet grass always happens?

There is a difference between generalizing and over-generalizing. One is a useful way to encompass a range of similarities. The other ignores important distinctions, like claiming “people who teach street” teach specialized systems or techniques for different surfaces.

When did I say self defence people always whatever.

There is no difference in what you did and what I did.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

When did I say self defence people always whatever.

There is no difference in what you did and what I did.

Here is your statement.

Well it think you can just get too concerned about your specific circumstance. And because people who teach street have a vested interest in these differences being fundamental.

Suddenly they think there are all these specialized methods that are required to fight under all these specialized circumstances.

For example not being able to use TKD on wet grass and so having to switch to shotokan.

Two systems because the surface is a bit hinky?

Not practical from a self defence point of view.

I said (in different words) that wet grass is slippery. You are presenting a false equivalency, bordering one “whataboutism”.

 

[drop bear]

Here is your statement.



I said (in different words) that wet grass is slippery. You are presenting a false equivalency, bordering one “whataboutism”.

Well wet grass isn't really that slippery. As people can still stick flying kicks while standing on it.

Which is the argument for training applicable moves for the street. That you would slip over performing these not wet grass functional moves.

Which is the point I was essentially making. In that self defence focused training focuses more on these issues than they need to.

And it works in their favor to do so because it gives them a niche market. That martial arts that focus on working in the environment it is trained in don't have.


So let's not say all self defence instruction has this issue. But you certainty do.