TKD Historians: Duk Son Song's Book

[KarateMomUSA]

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
You see there is doubt about who came up with the name & that Gen Choi got it approved. But the KKW prominently displays the calligraphy from Gen Park (you know the dictator) that was penned in 1971. Sadly the Kukki TKD history does not address the 1954/55 naming.

So you think that because of the Kukki Taekwondo calligraphy of President Park which was done in 1971, that he somehow is taking credit for the name Taekwondo?

No Sir, not at all. How can you come to that conclusion from what I posted? Unless you are just joking with me.
I just think that from an historical point of view that they should also address that the 1st president did the same thing 16 years earlier, thats all

 

[KarateMomUSA]

How about we just stick with people's names?
Daniel

People's names in these cases simply do not relay enough info. South Korea was led by a fierce anti-communist that was the 1st Korean to ever earn a PhD in the USA. Many of the other leaders vying for the top position were leftists, with some being communist. The USA did not want to risk losing their half of Korea that they were adminstering according to the UN mandate, so they went with Dr Rhee Seungman. There was an election & he ruled for 12 years until corruption forced him out when the students led an uprising in April of 1960. It was said that he led with a strong hand & was viewed by many as being a puppet of the US. Remember that is was this president that ran GM Lee Won Kuk out of the country.
The next 3 leaders were military generals, with Park & Chun being aboslute dictators, with Roh winning an election that was not trusted & the opposition was split. However once his single 5 year term ended, south Korea embarked on a series of civilian elected leaders. To understand the development of TKD, one must also know the history of Korean, their poliitcs, as they educate us to the context of the times when TKD came into being.
Descriptors are needed.

 

[rmclain]

I'm not so sure about the 1965 date. Some believe that the book was actually published in 1968.

I have this 1965 book by Choi Hong-hi. It is copyrighted in 1965. My father bought it brand new when on leave in New York City in 1965. Published by Daeha Publication Company: Seoul, Korea. Printed by Hwasong Printing Company. Ohara Publications is listed as the exclusive distributor in North America.

On page 12, Choi Hong-hi gives his rank and title as, "9th degree, President, the Taekwon-Do Association." This preface page is dated as March 1965.

R. McLain

 

[masterchase]

Interesting that he would sign a KTA certificate on or after at least April 15, 1965 with a the rank displayed as 7th degree and the March 1965 book contain a different rank.

Below: The first card contains my instructors promotion date, and the second lists the generals rank as 7th Degree. These cards were most likely issued at the same time.

PS. How 'bout that 'Karate' referance...

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

People's names in these cases simply do not relay enough info. South Korea was led by a fierce anti-communist that was the 1st Korean to ever earn a PhD in the USA. Many of the other leaders vying for the top position were leftists, with some being communist. The USA did not want to risk losing their half of Korea that they were adminstering according to the UN mandate, so they went with Dr Rhee Seungman. There was an election & he ruled for 12 years until corruption forced him out when the students led an uprising in April of 1960. It was said that he led with a strong hand & was viewed by many as being a puppet of the US. Remember that is was this president that ran GM Lee Won Kuk out of the country.
The next 3 leaders were military generals, with Park & Chun being aboslute dictators, with Roh winning an election that was not trusted & the opposition was split. However once his single 5 year term ended, south Korea embarked on a series of civilian elected leaders. To understand the development of TKD, one must also know the history of Korean, their poliitcs, as they educate us to the context of the times when TKD came into being.
Descriptors are needed.

I am aware of who he was. If descriptions are needed, then Adolph Hitler should have a good many pejoratives preceding his name. He doesn't; you hear Adolph Hitler and nothing more need be said. It would be one thing if you were in a discussion with people who were unfamiliar with the topic, but you are not.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

Interesting that he would sign a KTA certificate on or after at least April 15, 1965 with a the rank displayed as 7th degree and the March 1965 book contain a different rank. Below: The first card contains my instructors promotion date, and the second lists the generals rank as 7th Degree. These cards were most likely issued at the same time.

Which is one of the reasons why some questioned whether the 1965 book was really printed in 1965. Also, General Choi is not listed in the Kukkiwon dan promotion records. The Kukkiwon incorporates and includes promotions from the KTA era.

PS. How 'bout that 'Karate' referance...

That I believe is reference to the location of the school, which may have been in a designated karate facility on base. I know that there was a Japanese or Okinawan Karate club at Osan which predates the Chung Do Kwan club.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I'm not so sure about the 1965 date. Some believe that the book was actually published in 1968.

I have this 1965 book by Choi Hong-hi. It is copyrighted in 1965. My father bought it brand new when on leave in New York City in 1965. Published by Daeha Publication Company: Seoul, Korea. Printed by Hwasong Printing Company. Ohara Publications is listed as the exclusive distributor in North America.
On page 12, Choi Hong-hi gives his rank and title as, "9th degree, President, the Taekwon-Do Association." This preface page is dated as March 1965.
R. McLain

Yes the book was printed in 1965. There may have been more printings after, like 1968, but it was 1965. In the fall of 1965 Gen Choi led the Kukki TKD Goodwill Tour around the world & they gave away books on the tour. One of the reasons why it only contained 20 patterns was that they simply ran out of time & could not finish anymore, as they needed this book for the govt sponsored tour.
Recently a reprint has been done, so the book is readily available again.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Interesting that he would sign a KTA certificate on or after at least April 15, 1965 with a the rank displayed as 7th degree and the March 1965 book contain a different rank.

Below: The first card contains my instructors promotion date, and the second lists the generals rank as 7th Degree. These cards were most likely issued at the same time.

PS. How 'bout that 'Karate' referance...

Yes rank was used for self promotion. I also notice that the CDK was TaeSuDo, but the KTA was T-K-D. I think that since he was an American GI, karate was the term that so many were using, especially the Americans, as it was just really starting to hit the west, but didn't really take off yet.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I am aware of who he was. If descriptions are needed, then Adolph Hitler should have a good many pejoratives preceding his name. He doesn't; you hear Adolph Hitler and nothing more need be said. It would be one thing if you were in a discussion with people who were unfamiliar with the topic, but you are not.

Daniel

Sorry Sir, but since this is a public forum, many that stop by from time to time may not be as knowledgeable as some regular contributors who may be better informed, so I do repeat it so anyone checking in can see a single post & get the concept that I am trying to relay.

 

[puunui]

Interesting that he would sign a KTA certificate on or after at least April 15, 1965 with a the rank displayed as 7th degree and the March 1965 book contain a different rank.

Below: The first card contains my instructors promotion date, and the second lists the generals rank as 7th Degree. These cards were most likely issued at the same time.

PS. How 'bout that 'Karate' referance...

I don't know if this is an official KTA dan or membership card. I don't think so. I have a copy of GM Twing's Chung Do Kwan 1st Dan and it has the same number 4395 (given to me by your senior years ago). This might be a some sort of Chung Do Kwan 1st Dan card. I was also looking at issue #1 of the KTA magazine at it says that the name was changed from Taesoodo to Taekwondo in August 1965. That would coincide with what the Modern History book said about how GM Uhm and GM Lee forced General Choi out of the KTA.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I don't know if this is an official KTA dan or membership card. I don't think so. I have a copy of GM Twing's Chung Do Kwan 1st Dan and it has the same number 4395 (given to me by your senior years ago). This might be a some sort of Chung Do Kwan 1st Dan card. I was also looking at issue #1 of the KTA magazine at it says that the name was changed from Taesoodo to Taekwondo in August 1965. That would coincide with what the Modern History book said about how GM Uhm and GM Lee forced General Choi out of the KTA.

Sir does that certificate say TKD or Tae Soo Do?
Also please give us the date of that 1st KTA magazine?

 

[masterchase]

It definitely says Tae Soo Do.

This is my instructor at his Osan AFB dojang in 1965.

 

[masterchase]

Sorry,
Rereading you post, I think you were asking what it said on his
Chung Do Kwan certificate.
Yes. It says Tae Soo Do Chung Do Kwan

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Sorry,
Rereading you post, I think you were asking what it said on his
Chung Do Kwan certificate.
Yes. It says Tae Soo Do Chung Do Kwan

Yes it is pretty clear to me that few outside of Gen Choi's circle were using the TKD name, even the CDK as we see here in this example. We also know that they did not want to take them name in 1965, but Gen Choi won out. We also know that this played a part in GMs Uon Kyu Um & Lee Chong Woo in forcing him out. So I am not sure why people are hesitant to acknowledge that TKD was 1st applied to a system that was developed in the military led by Gen Choi. This is what history tells us.

 

[masterchase]

I would disagree.
My lineage is GM Won Kuk Lee, GM Chong Suh Kang, GM Tae Sung Lee, GM Bruce V. Twing.

I’ve seen in another post the following:

“In 1959, H.U. Lee and some of his classmates under GM Kang (Myong Kil Kim and Tae Sung Lee) got a job at Osan AFB, and while there, they opened up the Osan Chung Do Kwan.”

Our Vermont association was an ITF school until 1986 when Master Twing was reunited with GM Tae Sung Lee after losing contact after leaving military service.

Master Twing Called GM Myong Kil Kim his instructor until 1978.

So I don’t have all of the facts as to whether that Osan Dojang was under General Choi or not, but since we were ITF until 1986 I would assume so. But it’s risky using the word assume.

When GM Tae Sung Lee reunited with Master Twing we switched to Kukkiwon and have been ever since.

 

[puunui]

Sorry,
Rereading you post, I think you were asking what it said on his
Chung Do Kwan certificate.
Yes. It says Tae Soo Do Chung Do Kwan

Why cut off the certificate, especially the part with the certificate number?

 

[chrispillertkd]

My lineage is GM Won Kuk Lee, GM Chong Suh Kang, GM Tae Sung Lee, GM Bruce V. Twing.

Interesting. I assume this is the GM Chong Suh Kang who founded the Kuk Mu Kwan? Do you know about the relationship of the Kuk Mu Kwan to the Chung Do Kwan? Has GM Tae Sung Lee ever mentioned the Kuk Mu Kwan?

Pax,

Chris

 

[KarateMomUSA]

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Interesting. I assume this is the GM Chong Suh Kang who founded the Kuk Mu Kwan? Do you know about the relationship of the Kuk Mu Kwan to the Chung Do Kwan? Has GM Tae Sung Lee ever mentioned the Kuk Mu Kwan?

Pax,

Chris

GM Kang was a senior member of the Chung Do Kwan. However he may have been younger, not as aggressive & may not have promoted as fast as some of the others. The CDK produces many important & influential martial artists.

 

[chrispillertkd]

GM Kang was a senior member of the Chung Do Kwan. However he may have been younger, not as aggressive & may not have promoted as fast as some of the others. The CDK produces many important & influential martial artists.

Yes, I know. He was apparently a very early CDK black belt. But he also formed his own Kwan, the Kuk Mu Kwan (in the early 1950s, IIRC). If this is the same GM Kang that was mentioned before I'd be interested as to why GM Tae Sung Lee traces his lineage to the Chung Do Kwan and not the Kuk Mu Kwan.

Pax,

Chris

 

[puunui]

Yes, I know. He was apparently a very early CDK black belt. But he also formed his own Kwan, the Kuk Mu Kwan (in the early 1950s, IIRC).

You recall incorrectly.