TKD Historians: Duk Son Song's Book

[bluewaveschool]

I've re-read that bit a couple of times now and get the feeling he didn't mean it to be analysed like that. By which I mean he is not saying it is a fighting stance, but if it were it's no good. Does that make sense? Otherwise it would be odd.



I'd definately agree with that, and got it for similar reasons to Miles. I'd also read good reviews. It's a nice to have for historical purposes, but I wouldn't spend lots of money buying it.

Good thing someone else is buying it for me then.

Guess I'll use the cash I get on Choi's TDK Art of Self Defense reprint.

 

[dancingalone]

I've re-read that bit a couple of times now and get the feeling he didn't mean it to be analysed like that. By which I mean he is not saying it is a fighting stance, but if it were it's no good. Does that make sense? Otherwise it would be odd.

I'm not sure how else to parse it.

It's not a big deal. I can respect that he wrote a book about something that was very important to him. It's rare that anything can be 100% awesome to everyone.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I find it very telling that GM Son does not make mention of his claim that he came up with the name TKD in his own books!
What TKD historians must take into account is that he was very mad at Gen Choi because he was not allowed on the 1st TKD demo team to perform TKD outside of Korea. He was making allies with a leader of the Korean national assembly, trying to gain a leg up on the TKD leadership. He helped Gen Choi from the TKDsociation of Korea in 1957, with his political ally as the president, with Gen Choi as the VP & GM Son as the Secty Genl. This association did not last long & was superceeded in 1959 Sept, when Gen Choi formed the 1st Korean TKD Association, not to be confused with the Korean TaeSuDo Association formed in 1961 Sept.
GM Son then moved to the States in 1963, obviously losing the battle.

When judging the various accounts of TKD history, often made by competiting sides, one must also judge context & motives, along with what actually happened after their claims were made. Remember that all 3 he tried to expel from the CDK all played critical roles in both TK-D's & TKD's development

 

[puunui]

I find it very telling that GM Son does not make mention of his claim that he came up with the name TKD in his own books!

Well, he was there at the Naming Committee meeting, that much is certain.

What TKD historians must take into account is that he was very mad at Gen Choi because he was not allowed on the 1st TKD demo team to perform TKD outside of Korea.

Sure he was mad, but that in itself does not mean that he was lying in his newspaper article.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Well, he was there at the Naming Committee meeting, that much is certain.

I am aware of that well known fact. All that says it that he was in a position (physically) to suggest the name. Can you advise of any competent source or researcher that actually believes this claim by GM Son Duk Sung?
I again say that if he did come up with the name TKD, why did he not include that in any of the books or things that he has written? Why also are his books titled Korean Karate?

Sure he was mad, but that in itself does not mean that he was lying in his newspaper article.

I appreciate that newspaper article & do not really challenge much in it. I didn't say, nor did I imply he was lying.
I also like to draw some other possible inferences from it, like it shows that Gen Choi was playing a role in TKD in the 1950s, so much so, that it apparently warranted the issuance of an honorary 4th Dan certificate by an influence early kwan, that was an original kwan.
I also know that promotions that high were without physical tests. I believe Grandmaster Lee Chong Woo speaks to this issue. So possibly honorary was a term to reflect this & not like the honorary degrees presented today by many academic institutions to none students or graduates of their programs of study.
I accept that fact that Gen Choi was issued this honorary certificate & that it was revoked by the man who issued/signed it. I also understand that at the time the martial arts in Korea were in their infancy or "formative stage". I also understand that Gen Choi had a 4th Dan, also wanted a 6th dan. he was also listed as a 6th Dan in 1959 when he led the 1st TKD demo team abroad. I also understand that he was listed as a 7th Dan on KTA paperwork in 1965 & as a 9th Dan that same year in his own book, which was the 1st English book ever written on TKD.
I also understand that Great Grandmaster Lee Chong Woo's own words stated that he earned a 1st Dan in karate, then a 4th & was then made a 9th Dan in TKD. He basically says that he went from 1st degree to 9th degree.
I do not get too concerned with Dan rankings, as I know that the times & context of formative years was different that today's standards & way of looking at it.
I do know that Gen Choi & GM Lee were accomplished martial artists.
I do know that many Koreans were advanced in rank fast, so much so that Japanese stylists and Americans complained often.
I mean how was GM Jhoon Rhee a master when he came to the USA as a 1st or 2nd degree?
Who promoted Master Lee Won Kuk to a level that he promoted 2 of his students to 10th Dan (Kang Suh Chong & Nam Tae Hi)? These men trained with him about 5 years max?

 

[puunui]

I am aware of that well known fact. All that says it that he was in a position (physically) to suggest the name. Can you advise of any competent source or researcher that actually believes this claim by GM Son Duk Sung?

I don't think so. And the claim by GM Son might have been a mistranslation of his actual role in the creation of the Taekwondo name.

I again say that if he did come up with the name TKD, why did he not include that in any of the books or things that he has written? Why also are his books titled Korean Karate?

I think at the time (1968) Karate was more well known to the general public, so for marketing purposes he named his book "Korean Karate", just like GM Henry Cho. I don't think we can read too much more into the book title.

I also like to draw some other possible inferences from it, like it shows that Gen Choi was playing a role in TKD in the 1950s, so much so, that it apparently warranted the issuance of an honorary 4th Dan certificate by an influence early kwan, that was an original kwan.

I don't think anyone disputes that General Choi worked hard to make Taekwondo training mandatory in the ROK Army.

I also know that promotions that high were without physical tests. I believe Grandmaster Lee Chong Woo speaks to this issue.

I don't think so. The Modern History book does speak about promotion tests in the 50's and early 60's, and they were all physical tests.

So possibly honorary was a term to reflect this & not like the honorary degrees presented today by many academic institutions to none students or graduates of their programs of study.

In that newspaper ad, GM Son tells us exactly why he issued the Honorary 4th Dan to General Choi: "NAM Tae Hi asked me to give a dan certificate to 29th Infantry Division commander CHOI Hong Hi, who had some experience in martial art (Sado), so we could use his military authority to spread the Chung Do Kwan. To contribute to Taekwondo's development, I gave an Honorary 4th Dan certificate signed by myself, SON Duk Sung, to CHOI Hong Hi in front of the 3rd Army commander in 1955."

I also understand that he was listed as a 7th Dan on KTA paperwork in 1965 & as a 9th Dan that same year in his own book, which was the 1st English book ever written on TKD.

Where did you get your understanding that General Choi had a KTA 7th Dan?

I also understand that Great Grandmaster Lee Chong Woo's own words stated that he earned a 1st Dan in karate, then a 4th & was then made a 9th Dan in TKD. He basically says that he went from 1st degree to 9th degree.

Who told you GM Lee said that? Because the Chung Do Kwan people, including GM LEE Won Kuk, dispute that.

I do know that many Koreans were advanced in rank fast, so much so that Japanese stylists and Americans complained often.

The Japanese stylists might have been complaining because their dan system often ended at 5th Dan, while Korean styles did not.

I mean how was GM Jhoon Rhee a master when he came to the USA as a 1st or 2nd degree? Who promoted Master Lee Won Kuk to a level that he promoted 2 of his students to 10th Dan (Kang Suh Chong & Nam Tae Hi)? These men trained with him about 5 years max?

I heard that GM Jhoon Rhee was a Chung Do Kwan 3rd Dan when he arrived in the US in 1956. Also I don't know if GM LEE Won Kuk promoted GM Nam to 10th Dan; but I do know that he did promote GM KANG Suh Chong and GM UHM Woon Kyu to that rank. As for who promoted GM Lee, I believe that the only people who gave GM Lee dan rank was FUNAKOSHI Gichin Sensei and his son Yoshitaka Sensei. I vaguely remember some mention about promotion to higher dan after he returned to Japan in 1950, but it is not clear in my mind. I can ask his son about that. I know his sons received Shotokan dan rank while living in Japan.

 

[bluewaveschool]

Who would really argue with GM Lee Won Kuk about whom he promoted and to what degree? I mean, it's not like he founded the first kwan, started what we practice or anything.

 

[puunui]

Who would really argue with GM Lee Won Kuk about whom he promoted and to what degree?

Lots of people.

 

[bluewaveschool]

Lots of people.

Was he too modest to say 'Screw you, I invented it, I'll do whatever I damn well please'?


Because if he did, that would be awesome, since for some reason I have in my head that all the first GM were the humble 'Mr. Miyagi' type, totally peaceful yet could kick your *** at the drop of a hat.

 

[puunui]

Was he too modest to say 'Screw you, I invented it, I'll do whatever I damn well please'?

I don't think GM LEE Won Kuk cared what people thought when he did what he did. So if they did criticize him, it would be like water off a duck.

 

[bluewaveschool]

Since you were able to know him later in life, was he still practicing?

 

[puunui]

Since you were able to know him later in life, was he still practicing?

no.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I think at the time (1968) Karate was more well known to the general public, so for marketing purposes he named his book "Korean Karate", just like GM Henry Cho. I don't think we can read too much more into the book title.

Yes of course, but this misses & fails to address my bigger point: Why did he not take credit for coming up with the name TKD in any of his writtings?

You see, some years later GM Son claimed that he passed a note to Gen Choi with the name of TKD on it, taking credit for coming up with the name, which no serious TKD leader or researching has ever supported to my understanding. Yet this has taken on a sense of credibility as it has been repeated on the net & elsewhere by detractors of Gen Choi, so much so that some think it is the gospel truth, when I see no evidence to support this.
Have you ever found support for this claim?
Do you believe it yourself?

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I don't think so. The Modern History book does speak about promotion tests in the 50's and early 60's, and they were all physical tests.
Who told you GM Lee said that? Because the Chung Do Kwan people, including GM LEE Won Kuk, dispute that.

Yes but have you read the Yook interview of GM Lee?

The Japanese stylists might have been complaining because their dan system often ended at 5th Dan, while Korean styles did not.

Yes but this does not address the fast, speedy promotions of so many Koreans to high ranks when they went overseas. This was what a big complaint & concern was back in the 1970s.

I heard that GM Jhoon Rhee was a Chung Do Kwan 3rd Dan when he arrived in the US in 1956. Also I don't know if GM LEE Won Kuk promoted GM Nam to 10th Dan; but I do know that he did promote GM KANG Suh Chong and GM UHM Woon Kyu to that rank. As for who promoted GM Lee, I believe that the only people who gave GM Lee dan rank was FUNAKOSHI Gichin Sensei and his son Yoshitaka Sensei. I vaguely remember some mention about promotion to higher dan after he returned to Japan in 1950, but it is not clear in my mind. I can ask his son about that. I know his sons received Shotokan dan rank while living in Japan.

Yes I think he did give 10th Dan to Nam Tae Hi. I also heard that Kang Suh Chong was the 1st person he gave 10th dan to, is that true?

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Quote:Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
I also understand that he was listed as a 7th Dan on KTA paperwork in 1965 & as a 9th Dan that same year in his own book, which was the 1st English book ever written on TKD.

Where did you get your understanding that General Choi had a KTA 7th Dan?

No no no Sir, that was not what I said. I did not say that he got a 7th Dan from the KTA. I saw it on paperwork of the KTA from 1965. We know that in 1965 Gen Choi was the 3rd president of the KTA. We also know that he wrote the 1st books on TKD, coming out with his 1st English one in 1965. This book that he wrote has him listed as a 9th dan, the highest in the world. However in that same year I recently saw a I Dan KTA certificate issued when Gen Choi was president. Under his title or signature, it clearly listed him as a 7th Dan. Please do not take this as evidence to support that he was a 7th Dan. But rather I highlight it to illustrate the race to the top & how so many were promoted, elevated etc so fast in those days.
Earlier on many leaders were all made 4th Dan. GM Lee Chong Woo says he was I Dan in karate. Then made his way to 4th dan, without a physical test for 4th, as he was sick. Then when they made TKD he became a 9th dan. I have no problem with much of this. What i strongly object to is the double standard that is often applied to Gen Choi fast, faster, fastest rise to his top. Whats good for the goose in my eyes, must also be good for the gander.
I concern myself very little with ranking, especially that which occurred in the formative years. Once the current rank advancement was codified by ITF & KKW (WTF) I think then you can clearly see if someone cheated or jumped unfairly etc. However post-occupation period, all the founders & future leaders were junior students of the martial art that they were taking. It was the efforts of these important Koreans that made possible what so many around the world do today. They were the leaders & innovators that created this martial art (sport). So those in the beginning simply in my view, can not be judged by the standards of today. In a sense it was their vision & creativity that made them grandmasters

 

[puunui]

Yes I think he did give 10th Dan to Nam Tae Hi. I also heard that Kang Suh Chong was the 1st person he gave 10th dan to, is that true?

I think GM UHM Woon Kyu was the first. GM Kang came around 2001 or after I believe. GM Lee mentioned that GM Kang came to see him for 10th Dan. If GM Nam got 10th Dan from GM Lee, it was probably after GM Kang.

 

[puunui]

We know that in 1965 Gen Choi was the 3rd president of the KTA. We also know that he wrote the 1st books on TKD, coming out with his 1st English one in 1965.

I'm not so sure about the 1965 date. Some believe that the book was actually published in 1968. The Modern History book has a bibliography and it lists the book as being published in 1969.

This book that he wrote has him listed as a 9th dan, the highest in the world. However in that same year I recently saw a I Dan KTA certificate issued when Gen Choi was president. Under his title or signature, it clearly listed him as a 7th Dan. Please do not take this as evidence to support that he was a 7th Dan.

Really. All the KTA dan certificates that I saw didn't have anyone's signature on it.

Earlier on many leaders were all made 4th Dan. GM Lee Chong Woo says he was I Dan in karate. Then made his way to 4th dan, without a physical test for 4th, as he was sick.

That's not exactly what the Modern History book says. Try and read it again.

Then when they made TKD he became a 9th dan.

I don't think the jumps where that extreme. I don't think the pioneers skipped dan ranks at all. I know I saw a listing of GM LEE Chong Woo in Black Belt magazine from the 60's, I want to say 1967 or so, and it listed him as 7th Dan. I know all the Kwan Jang and other seniors were promoted to Kukkiwon 9th Dan in 1975. I don't think they took a test though for that one.

 

[puunui]

You see, some years later GM Son claimed that he passed a note to Gen Choi with the name of TKD on it, taking credit for coming up with the name, which no serious TKD leader or researching has ever supported to my understanding. Yet this has taken on a sense of credibility as it has been repeated on the net & elsewhere by detractors of Gen Choi, so much so that some think it is the gospel truth, when I see no evidence to support this. Have you ever found support for this claim? Do you believe it yourself?

I remember reading that and thinking it didn't sound right. I know that GM LEE Won Kuk described GM Son as a "kangpae" or gangster, the implication being that he didn't feel GM Son was educated. He did speak highly of GM Nam, who he said was an office worker at the Chung Do Kwan who kept the paperwork organized.

If I had to guess, not knowing all the facts, I would say either GM Nam or General Choi came up with the name, being the educated creative ones who would be more interested in that sort of endeavor. GM Son would be a lower probability choice for me because of the gangpae commentary by GM Lee and also the fact that it doesn't seem like GM Son's style has changed or evolved at all. He doesn't look or feel like he is into creativity, which probably hindered his ability move Taekwondo or the Chung Do Kwan into the direction that it needed and wanted to go.

Does that make sense?

 

[puunui]

Yes but have you read the Yook interview of GM Lee?

I don't think so. Which yook interview of which GM Lee?

Yes but this does not address the fast, speedy promotions of so many Koreans to high ranks when they went overseas. This was what a big complaint & concern was back in the 1970s.

I'm sure they were concerned because it seemed like there was an endless supply of Korean born instructors coming over in an endless series of waves which severely affected their dojo businesses.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I'm not so sure about the 1965 date. Some believe that the book was actually published in 1968. The Modern History book has a bibliography and it lists the book as being published in 1969.

No there is no doubt that is was 1965. There may have been more than 1 printing though. This book was rushed so they would have it for the 1965 Kukki TKD Goodwill tour sponsored by the south Korean govt. Gen Choi led that team in the fall of 1965. He gave out copies of this book when he went on that tour. It was 1 of the reasons he used to try & persuade them to change the name to TKD from TaeSuDo.

Really. All the KTA dan certificates that I saw didn't have anyone's signature on it.

Yes #4395, which may have been the wallet size card is the one that had 7th Degree on it. It had 2 signatures, Gen Choi & the director, whose name I can not make out. I also saw, but can not find the copy of a full size one, which had only Gen Choi's signature as president on it, but I do not remember it having a rank listed for Gen Choi