TKD Historians: Duk Son Song's Book

[KarateMomUSA]

Quote:Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
Earlier on many leaders were all made 4th Dan. GM Lee Chong Woo says he was I Dan in karate. Then made his way to 4th dan, without a physical test for 4th, as he was sick.

That's not exactly what the Modern History book says. Try and read it again.

No sorry again for the confusion. Things get mixed up with all the exchange of info & the needed follow, sorry. I was only saying that GM Lee said that. It is in the link below of an interview he gave.

I don't think the jumps where that extreme. I don't think the pioneers skipped dan ranks at all. I know I saw a listing of GM LEE Chong Woo in Black Belt magazine from the 60's, I want to say 1967 or so, and it listed him as 7th Dan. I know all the Kwan Jang and other seniors were promoted to Kukkiwon 9th Dan in 1975. I don't think they took a test though for that one.

I would be curious & would be appreciative of your feedback on this article. Thank you sir.
http://www.tkdreform.com/yook_article.pdf

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I remember reading that and thinking it didn't sound right. I know that GM LEE Won Kuk described GM Son as a "kangpae" or gangster, the implication being that he didn't feel GM Son was educated. He did speak highly of GM Nam, who he said was an office worker at the Chung Do Kwan who kept the paperwork organized.
If I had to guess, not knowing all the facts, I would say either GM Nam or General Choi came up with the name, being the educated creative ones who would be more interested in that sort of endeavor. GM Son would be a lower probability choice for me because of the gangpae commentary by GM Lee and also the fact that it doesn't seem like GM Son's style has changed or evolved at all. He doesn't look or feel like he is into creativity, which probably hindered his ability move Taekwondo or the Chung Do Kwan into the direction that it needed and wanted to go.
Does that make sense?

Yes it does. It also jives with my understanding that the term TKD came from Chinese characters that educated Koreans used. Gen Choi, an educated man, also had deep understanding of Chinese because of his caligraphy skills & training. This was why Gen Choi had President Seungman Rhee do his calligraphy in Chinese.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I don't think so. Which yook interview of which GM Lee?

Please see above post #41.

I'm sure they were concerned because it seemed like there was an endless supply of Korean born instructors coming over in an endless series of waves which severely affected their dojo businesses.

Yes of course, but it doesn't address that they were promoting fast. Maybe the Japanese system was not as quick with advancement, but when you have all these young Korean masters dropping in all over the place as high Dan level black belts, all the general public knows is you have 4 stripes on your belt & I have 7, so I must be better

 

[puunui]

I would be curious & would be appreciative of your feedback on this article. Thank you sir.
http://www.tkdreform.com/yook_article.pdf

I did read that. Dr. Dong Ja Yang really hates GM LEE Chong Woo. Dr. Yang's wife actually slapped GM Lee's face. Dr. Yang was trying to run for WTF President back in the late 80's, and ended up getting suspended, demoted from Kukkiwon 9th Dan to 8th Dan, and eventually kicked out all together. Dr. Yang was the USTU's equivalent to GM LEE Chong Woo.

I think GM Lee, like anyone else, gears the conversation to the level of his audience, which in this case is a non-taekwondoin. When I spoke to him, he had a different perspective and a different view, although we covered different topics. There was a lot cut out from the interview, I would like to hear the entire recording. But GM Lee is quite a character, which comes from being hands down the most brilliant pioneer of them all, out shined by only Dr. Kim himself. GM Lee is like a 100 watt light bulb, and everyone else looks like either a small candle or a match in comparison. I could spend all day everyday for years listening and learning from him, just like I could Dr. Kim, and Dr. Yang too.

 

[puunui]

This was why Gen Choi had President Seungman Rhee do his calligraphy in Chinese.

All the calligraphy back then was done in hanmoon. the ability to read and write in hanmoon (chinese) characters is what distinguished the educated from the non-educated back then. I ate lunch at a sushi place today, run by Korean borns. There was a sign in Chinese characters and I asked the lady behind the counter what it said. She read it and explain what it said (it had to do with the type of rice they used, which was given to them by the rice company). We started talking and she said that the people of her generation (50 and over) all learned how to read and write in hanmoon, but that the young kids of today only know hangul.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Quote:Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
This was why Gen Choi had President Seungman Rhee do his calligraphy in Chinese.

All the calligraphy back then was done in hanmoon. the ability to read and write in hanmoon (chinese) characters is what distinguished the educated from the non-educated back then. I ate lunch at a sushi place today, run by Korean borns. There was a sign in Chinese characters and I asked the lady behind the counter what it said. She read it and explain what it said (it had to do with the type of rice they used, which was given to them by the rice company). We started talking and she said that the people of her generation (50 and over) all learned how to read and write in hanmoon, but that the young kids of today only know hangul.

Not sure how that addresses my point
????????

 

[puunui]

Quote:Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
This was why Gen Choi had President Seungman Rhee do his calligraphy in Chinese.
Not sure how that addresses my point
????????

The reason why the calligraphy (which no one saw by the way) was in chinese wasn't because of General Choi, but rather because all calligraphy was done in chinese characters back then.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

The reason why the calligraphy (which no one saw by the way) was in chinese wasn't because of General Choi, but rather because all calligraphy was done in chinese characters back then.

Sorry I don't agree & I do believe that you saw it. Maybe you didn't realize it. but didn't you say that you had the 1st TKD book ever written, the 1959 book written by Gen Choi? If you did, it is in there!
Problem is that when he exiled himself to Canada, he told no one, but his wife. he was going on a TKD trip & could only take a few items, as not to raise suspicion, impractical, etc. The scroll was left hanging in his office. Sadly never recovered or preserved for history, exactly because of the nasty politics that played heavily in TKD's history. It is a shame for all TKDin, even those not yet born, that such an important piece of history was not saved.

But of course his detractors, among them GM Lee Chong Woo, did not realize that proof was in this book, also copies of which were not embraced in Korea because of politics. There of course was a blacklisting of Gen Choi in south Korea & he was almost written out of history. That is all changing. In fact, people in south Korea think ITF TKD is communist TKD or TKD from north Korea, with many not realizing it came from their own ROK Army. I am sure you heard of the TKD Monument on Jeju Island that was hidden from the dictator & only put up in recent years?

 

[puunui]

Sorry I don't agree & I do believe that you saw it. Maybe you didn't realize it. but didn't you say that you had the 1st TKD book ever written, the 1959 book written by Gen Choi? If you did, it is in there!

That looks like General Choi's calligraphy. In that Yook article, GM Lee speaks about never seeing President RHEE Syngman's calligraphy.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

That looks like General Choi's calligraphy. In that Yook article, GM Lee speaks about never seeing President RHEE Syngman's calligraphy.

No it is actually signed by Mr Rhee, the puppet president. Yes of course GM Lee says that. He was of course speaking out against a traitor. This is part of the problem, but I guess he didn't realize that there was evidence

 

[puunui]

No it is actually signed by Mr Rhee, the puppet president.

I don't know why you insist on calling all the ROK presidents by these adjectives. Really.

 

[puunui]

But of course his detractors, among them GM Lee Chong Woo, did not realize that proof was in this book, also copies of which were not embraced in Korea because of politics. There of course was a blacklisting of Gen Choi in south Korea & he was almost written out of history. That is all changing. In fact, people in south Korea think ITF TKD is communist TKD or TKD from north Korea, with many not realizing it came from their own ROK Army. I am sure you heard of the TKD Monument on Jeju Island that was hidden from the dictator & only put up in recent years?

GM LEE Chong Woo isn't a "detractor". He tried to work with General Choi but he was too much. And why wouldn't GM Lee have seen the calligraphy, as it was hanging in General Choi's office? General Choi wasn't written out of the history more so than his role in the history isn't all the significant, other than to be a negative influence. No one's name is mentioned in any of the official history of Kukki Taekwondo. No, I haven't heard about the Taekwondo Monument on Jeju Island that was hidden from "the" dictator.

By the way, this would be an example of you trying to blend General Choi history with everyone elses, instead of keeping them separate.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I don't know why you insist on calling all the ROK presidents by these adjectives. Really.

I added puppet president as you said Mr Rhee was a worse dictator that Gen Park. I wanted to acknowledge that yes his govt was corrupt & yes you can be corrupt & a puppet, think present day Irag & Afganastan

 

[KarateMomUSA]

GM LEE Chong Woo isn't a "detractor". He tried to work with General Choi but he was too much. And why wouldn't GM Lee have seen the calligraphy, as it was hanging in General Choi's office? General Choi wasn't written out of the history more so than his role in the history isn't all the significant, other than to be a negative influence. No one's name is mentioned in any of the official history of Kukki Taekwondo. No, I haven't heard about the Taekwondo Monument on Jeju Island that was hidden from "the" dictator.

By the way, this would be an example of you trying to blend General Choi history with everyone elses, instead of keeping them separate.

Yes you may be right about the spillover of the mix, but it is hard to keep somethings completely separate. You see there is doubt about who came up with the name & that Gen Choi got it approved. But the KKW prominently displays the calligraphy from Gen Park (you know the dictator) that was penned in 1971. Sadly the Kukki TKD history does not address the 1954/55 naming. When searching for the truth, if that is what is sought, one must evaluate all sources & motivations. Many people will look to critique Gen Choi as a self promoter, but few understand the motivation & methods his political opponents took. I try my best to take in your valuable contributions.
The Jeju Island monument was hidden from one of the dictator's brother & was only found & restored many years later. Those villagers that restored it, said it was done as Gen Choi's name was persona non grata, but they were proud to restore it, as their home played a vital role in TKD's formative years.

 

[puunui]

You see there is doubt about who came up with the name & that Gen Choi got it approved. But the KKW prominently displays the calligraphy from Gen Park (you know the dictator) that was penned in 1971. Sadly the Kukki TKD history does not address the 1954/55 naming.

So you think that because of the Kukki Taekwondo calligraphy of President Park which was done in 1971, that he somehow is taking credit for the name Taekwondo?

 

[masterchase]

Here is a scan from a card issued in 1965

 

[chrispillertkd]

Here is a scan from a card issued in 1965

Very cool. Thanks for the post. Is there any way you can tell me who is listed as the "Director"? I am afraid I can't decipher that signature.

BTW, is that the certificate of the Master Bruce Twing who was profiled in Taekwon-Do Times some years ago? He was based in New England and had a Chung Do Kwan school. I remember reading he passed away a few years ago if it's the same man.

Thanks again.

Pax,

Chris

 

[puunui]

Here is a scan from a card issued in 1965

Do you have a scan of the actual certificate? By the way, I recognize the signature on the right, and I am sure you do too.

 

[masterchase]

I think it's GM Woon Kyu Uhm. Below is his signature 43 years later.

Master Bruce V. Twing was my instructor. Founder of Blue Wave TKD in Vermont. Named after his orignal school at Osan Air force base in South Korea.... Chung Do Kwan
His instructor was GM Tae Sung Lee.
GM Tae Sung Lee travels from S. Korea about once a year and teaches at our dojangs for a couple of weeks every year.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I added puppet president as you said Mr Rhee was a worse dictator that Gen Park. I wanted to acknowledge that yes his govt was corrupt & yes you can be corrupt & a puppet, think present day Irag & Afganastan

How about we just stick with people's names?

Daniel