Tibetan White Crane and Related Arts

[Flying Crane]

I've seen a little bit of tongbei, tho not enough to know if it what I saw was well done or not. I don't know anything about its history, but it's interesting, for sure.

 

[dlcox]

I don't know the weapon history of most of what we practice, I suspect a lot of it was adopted Chinese at some point, but nothing about a boot knife nor a ring. I can't say if our staff material is truly tibetan or Chinese.

You mention the lamas being pacifist, and while that is true, Tibet did have a martial period several hundred years ago when it was a dominant military power in the region. I would expect there would be plenty of material in that context to pull from, in the development of the system, and would no ncessarily need to pull from the Chinese methods to do so. Borrowing has always happened between methods, but my understanding is that the tibetan method is a fair bit older than Choy lay fut, hung gar, and the Fukien crane. If memory serves, those methods were founded in the 1700s or so, much later than the oral history places the beginnings of the Tibetan methods. I don't know anthing really about tong bei. But I'm not seeing how Choy lay fut or hung ga would have been source material for the Tibetan. Opposite of that, we've always held that those methods borrowed from the Tibetan method.

I don't know a whole about the weapons history either. I do know that the Kham region of Tibet was famous for their swordsmanship.

True that Tibet did have a strong military presence at one time. As I mentioned earlier common arts of that era would have been, Kalaripayettu, Vajramushti, Boke, Amaree etc. These arts most definately had an impact on the arts development, but that was then. As the art traveled east it was overwritten with a lot of Chinese material, as it was passed on by Chinese. From my limited understanding early Tong Bei, like Shuai Jiao and Qin Na, did not have taolu. It was considered more a method / tactic than a full fledged art.

Huang Yan Lin (Wong Yan Lin), Huang Lin Kai (Wong Lam Hoi), Wu Jian Hua (Ng Gim Ho) just to name a few were all promonent Hongjia Quan practitioners. Wu Mei (Ng Mui, Jin Bo Liu Tou) was Yong Chun White Crane. I believe that Chan Sai Mo (Choy Lay Fut) referred to his art as White Crane. Naive to think that their previous arts did not have a profound influence on their versions of Lion's Roar. Alot of the art has been overwritten with Chinese cultural influences, the Tibetan art IMO did not influence the Chinese arts as much as it was the other way around. Otherwise I think there would be more Tibetan heritage preserved in the art such as Tibetan and Sanskrit language references, religious iconography, ceremony etc. It has only been within the last 15-20 years that a small group of individuals like myself have tried to connect the dots and verify the Tibetan heritage and influence, sadly much is lost from the original Simhanada Vajramushti / Senge Ngwa Dorge Lag Pa that was said to exist once upon a time in Tibet. Many Chinese Shifu are very nationalistic and do not want to emphasize another culture over their own. This is evidenced by the naming of the various branches, Dr. Sun Yat Sen suggested that the name be changed as he felt many would not support a forgien method once employed by the very group (the Qing) that was oppressing them. Since then much has been done to reduce the arts origin to the realm of mythology, ovewrite what could be and what couldn't be was forgtten or simply not spoke about publically.

There has also always beeen a stong "keep what is useful, throwout what is not" mentality wth the practitioners of the art, ad in Nationalistic pride and Secret Societies and conditions become ripe for different interpretations with different mythologies. This by no means suggests that one lineage is more original or pure than another. It simply goes to show that the art is varied with different emphasis, making it difficult to discerrn what was the root of art. IMO what I see is mostly Chinese martial methods and theories supported by a sliver of Tibetan qigong and remnants of old indigenous Tibetan martial traditions and heavy overwriting by the Chinese tradition. A majority of this conclusion is based upon my own personal experiences and doesn't necessisarily reflect the views of others. The strongest support to my conclusions is that there is no Llions Roar martial art practiced in Tibet, but they do have a religious Yoga practice aligned with Lions Roar. They continue to practice to this day the various methods of Trul Khor and Sku Mnye.

 

[Flying Crane]

I don't know a whole about the weapons history either. I do know that the Kham region of Tibet was famous for their swordsmanship.

True that Tibet did have a strong military presence at one time. As I mentioned earlier common arts of that era would have been, Kalaripayettu, Vajramushti, Boke, Amaree etc. These arts most definately had an impact on the arts development, but that was then. As the art traveled east it was overwritten with a lot of Chinese material, as it was passed on by Chinese. From my limited understanding early Tong Bei, like Shuai Jiao and Qin Na, did not have taolu. It was considered more a method / tactic than a full fledged art.

Huang Yan Lin (Wong Yan Lin), Huang Lin Kai (Wong Lam Hoi), Wu Jian Hua (Ng Gim Ho) just to name a few were all promonent Hongjia Quan practitioners. Wu Mei (Ng Mui, Jin Bo Liu Tou) was Yong Chun White Crane. I believe that Chan Sai Mo (Choy Lay Fut) referred to his art as White Crane. Naive to think that their previous arts did not have a profound influence on their versions of Lion's Roar. Alot of the art has been overwritten with Chinese cultural influences, the Tibetan art IMO did not influence the Chinese arts as much as it was the other way around. Otherwise I think there would be more Tibetan heritage preserved in the art such as Tibetan and Sanskrit language references, religious iconography, ceremony etc. It has only been within the last 15-20 years that a small group of individuals like myself have tried to connect the dots and verify the Tibetan heritage and influence, sadly much is lost from the original Simhanada Vajramushti / Senge Ngwa Dorge Lag Pa that was said to exist once upon a time in Tibet. Many Chinese Shifu are very nationalistic and do not want to emphasize another culture over their own. This is evidenced by the naming of the various branches, Dr. Sun Yat Sen suggested that the name be changed as he felt many would not support a forgien method once employed by the very group (the Qing) that was oppressing them. Since then much has been done to reduce the arts origin to the realm of mythology, ovewrite what could be and what couldn't be was forgtten or simply not spoke about publically.

There has also always beeen a stong "keep what is useful, throwout what is not" mentality wth the practitioners of the art, ad in Nationalistic pride and Secret Societies and conditions become ripe for different interpretations with different mythologies. This by no means suggests that one lineage is more original or pure than another. It simply goes to show that the art is varied with different emphasis, making it difficult to discerrn what was the root of art. IMO what I see is mostly Chinese martial methods and theories supported by a sliver of Tibetan qigong and remnants of old indigenous Tibetan martial traditions and heavy overwriting by the Chinese tradition. A majority of this conclusion is based upon my own personal experiences and doesn't necessisarily reflect the views of others. The strongest support to my conclusions is that there is no Llions Roar martial art practiced in Tibet, but they do have a religious Yoga practice aligned with Lions Roar. They continue to practice to this day the various methods of Trul Khor and Sku Mnye.

Good post and put in this manner I really cannot find a lot to disagree with. Clearly the method would have gone thru a lot of change as it came into China, no doubt about that. And to your point of previous experience coloring what one would do with their white crane, well that does make a lot of sense. All that one has done previously will affect in some way all that one does later, when it comes to training. And that influence would affect how the method is passed along by any individual, while not necessarily affecting the system as a whole. It all depends on the experiences of those who are teaching, and explains a lot of the differences we see today from one lineage to another. I've had a similar discussion with my student, we see on YouTube, video of people from other schools and other lineages, they do things differently and we are tempted to say they are wrong. But we can't really say that, if their lineage emphasizes something differently and it is effective, then I cannot say it is truly wrong. I can only say, there is this or that aspect of how they do things and I personally don't like it for XYZ reason. But that doesn't mean that their interpretation of the system as a whole is wrong. Luk Chi Fu was accomplished in Choy lay fut and he was my Sifu's first teacher. Sifu learned a lot f CLF before he decided to focus on white crane and went to train with Tang Ja Meng. That does influence what he does, it has an influence on how he passes it along to the students. So yeah, the influence is there even if on a case-by-case level and not on a macro level of the entire system. I've had an inherent suspicion that the original method from the 14th century, if that is in fact the truth of when it began, is probably very different from what we have today.

Interesting that you mention the sword and Tibet being famous for their swordsmanship. My sifu says the same thing, says that our sword is highly treasured. So that is a familiar message to me.

 

[dlcox]

Good post and put in this manner I really cannot find a lot to disagree with. Clearly the method would have gone thru a lot of change as it came into China, no doubt about that. And to your point of previous experience coloring what one would do with their white crane, well that does make a lot of sense. All that one has done previously will affect in some way all that one does later, when it comes to training. And that influence would affect how the method is passed along by any individual, while not necessarily affecting the system as a whole. It all depends on the experiences of those who are teaching, and explains a lot of the differences we see today from one lineage to another. I've had a similar discussion with my student, we see on YouTube, video of people from other schools and other lineages, they do things differently and we are tempted to say they are wrong. But we can't really say that, if their lineage emphasizes something differently and it is effective, then I cannot say it is truly wrong. I can only say, there is this or that aspect of how they do things and I personally don't like it for XYZ reason. But that doesn't mean that their interpretation of the system as a whole is wrong. Luk Chi Fu was accomplished in Choy lay fut and he was my Sifu's first teacher. Sifu learned a lot f CLF before he decided to focus on white crane and went to train with Tang Ja Meng. That does influence what he does, it has an influence on how he passes it along to the students. So yeah, the influence is there even if on a case-by-case level and not on a macro level of the entire system. I've had an inherent suspicion that the original method from the 14th century, if that is in fact the truth of when it began, is probably very different from what we have today.

Interesting that you mention the sword and Tibet being famous for their swordsmanship. My sifu says the same thing, says that our sword is highly treasured. So that is a familiar message to me.

Good post. I think we've come to some agreement

What sword methods do you have in your lineage? White Tiger Saber, Twisting Horse Sword, Flying Crane Sword etc.? In my lineage we have our version of White Tiger Saber & Twisting Horse Sword as the major sword methods. Our White Tiger is much shorter than many I have seen and focuses on only the basic and most salient movements. Our Twisting Horse is our internal sword and has elements common to Flying Crane and Twisting horse that I've seen from other lineages but again shorter in length. It's interesting that in my lineage our sword movements are the same as our hand movements just like in arts like Yong Chun. Does this ring true for you as well?

 

[dlcox]

This is a very interesting thread, I want to thank you both for this.



My first sifu did some Tongbeiquan but as far as I know he never taught it to anyone, however I use to see him do the forms every once and awhile

Tongbeiquan

Tongbeiquan has some very difinative elements that were introduced into Tibetan White Crane. IMO especially with the Wu Shao Zhong (Ng Siu Jung) branch. Lots of reference to the old frame (Kuang) style of training in both systems. I have some material from this branch through Liu Jun Ren (Lau Kwan Yum). We have line drills performed in this manner while emphasizing the "6 Strengths". Good stuff, another riddle of the art known as Lions Roar.

 

[qianfeng]

Sorry if I came off a bit sharp, wasn't my intention. It's hard to interpret and inflict tone in writing.

Examining the oral tradition I find some interesting points of reference.

1. The Crane & Ape aspects are most likely a reference to the Nepal / Tibetan war. This is reflected in the poem of "Monkeys and Birds". At that time Tibet viewed themselves as cranes amd the Nepalese as monkeys. As the art traveled east the totems switched. The Chinese, especially the Daoists, viewed themselves as cranes and the Tibetans as monkeys.

2. The true Tibetan aspects of the art lie within the internal methods, not the martial methods. Lamas are pacifists, spiritual warriors only. So their traditions are filled with myth and allegory. The legends are like Zen koans, puzzles to be figured out. There are some true Tibetan martial aspects but these are arts like Amaree, indigenous wrestling methods. Most of the martial elememts of "Lions Roar" come from Fojia Quan, Cai Li Fo Quan, Hong Quan, Luohan Quan and Bai He Quan. If I had to guess I'd say that for my lineage Luohan Quan and Bai He Quan are the major aspects, at least for what was used as a model for the Taolu. There are definate influences from Shuai Jiao, Qin Na and Tong Bei. These were San Shi methods and concepts that were part of the early development, and are common to many northern Chinese arts.

3. The conceptual aspects of the art lie within the theories found in Shuai Jiao, Qin Na & Tong Bei. As well as the concepts used to formulate Bai He Quan created by Fang Qiniang. Other branches may use another art, most commonly I see Cai Li Fo, which has a shared history with "Lions Roar" through the monk known as Da Zhang (Walking Stick Monk). Energy useage, movement, internal mechanisms, strength development come specifically from the indigenous Tibetan methods of Yoga. This loose material was combined with whatever art was at hand to create the style of "Lions Roar", this is partly why the art is referred to as Hejia (Hop Gar) or United Family.

4. Once the art entered southern China it was absorbed into the Hong Men society. As I stated earlier the philosophy of the Hong Men was greatly influenced by the Mizong practices of Tibet, Sichuan & Yunan. The initiation rite of the society is essentially a reworking of the Chod ritual found in the esoteric teachings of Lamaism. This is where much of the lore gets further muddled and embellished. Such as the legend of Sheng Long Lao Zhong being 5th elder Qing Ru Hu De Di. At this time the art was known as Hejia (United Family) it wasn't until Wang Yan Lin that this was changed and the method was referred to as Xiajia (Knight Family).

5. In short there are two events that lead to the development of the art. Tibet is where the majority of the internal wokings originated and China is where the majority of the marrtial methods originated. This isn't cut and dry as there are elements to be found from Indian Kalaripayettu and Tibetan Amaree as well as influences of Chinese Qigong. As I stated it's all in the lineage. Diregard the legends and follow the lineage, who trained with whom tells the real history. By looking at this we can see where influences came from, trace origins of legends and see what events in these individuals eras led to the shaping of the art. Cross reference this with the legends and you wll have a much clearer picture of how things came to be. It's not definative proof but it is a best case senario of what might have really occured.

Isnt White crane a northern art how did it get northern influence from tong bei?

 

[Flying Crane]

Good post. I think we've come to some agreement

What sword methods do you have in your lineage? White Tiger Saber, Twisting Horse Sword, Flying Crane Sword etc.? In my lineage we have our version of White Tiger Saber & Twisting Horse Sword as the major sword methods. Our White Tiger is much shorter than many I have seen and focuses on only the basic and most salient movements. Our Twisting Horse is our internal sword and has elements common to Flying Crane and Twisting horse that I've seen from other lineages but again shorter in length. It's interesting that in my lineage our sword movements are the same as our hand movements just like in arts like Yong Chun. Does this ring true for you as well?

We've got white tiger dao, tho I have not learned it. We've got flying crane dao, that one I've learned. It may be unique to our lineage might be one that Sifu adopted from elsewhere, but it works very well with the principles of our system, the waist turning.

We've got two sword forms, embarrassed to say I've forgotten the names and I've learned one of them. I'm not sure if we have flying crane sword, or if Sifu simply has not taught that one. The other two are not that one.

I don't know the history of this stuff, and I don't know enough sword in general to make any comparisons or draw conclusions. I had learned tome Taiji sword from a prior sifu, but never felt like I undrstood taiji properly so I don't like to hold that out as something in my tool kit.

 

[dlcox]

Isnt White crane a northern art how did it get northern influence from tong bei?

I would say it is more western if anything. As it was introduced into China many arts were absorbed, influenced or added to it, changing it from the original method known in India as Simhanada Vajramushti. Simhanada Vajramushti is considered a dead art. Remnants of it can still be seen in "Lions Roar", however, because of peoples personal preferences, pre-existing knowledge base etc. Much of the art has been overwritten.

 

[qianfeng]

Isnt White crane a northern art how did it get northern influence from tong bei?

I meant White crane being southern not northern

 

[dlcox]

I meant White crane being southern not northern

In my lineage of Tibetan White Crane we hold the tradition that our "White Crane" element is largely from the Yong Chun tradition. Other lineages my not agree with this. For my line this influence probably has more to due with the fact that our founding ancestors were originally Hongjia practitioners, and Hongjia's shared ancestry with Fujian crane boxing. It is interesting to note though, that aside from the origin story of Adatuojin's Lions Roar, ancestral Simhanada Vajramushti makes no reference to Ape or Crane in their versions origin myth.

It's not hard to imagine that as this art travelled to China it encountered various Chinese martial methods. As some undoubtedly travelled the Silk Road and entered Northern China through Mongolia especially during the time when the Khan had Lamas brought over to reside in Beijing. If I'm not mistaken Tongbei is the art of the Ape, Taiji was the imperial art at the time, Taiji is Crane. Some believe this is when and where Mian Li Zhen (Needle in Cotton) was created using the tantric yoga as a developmental wellspring.

Lions Roar is a vast art encompassing several methods ranging from Long Fist to Short Hand, External to Internal. IMO this was not "Created" by one man, several masters and styles have led to the development of the style. That is why there are so many variations of it. The martial art that was brought to China was more than likely a San Shi method practiced in Kuang (Frame) fashion, the qigong was sacred and not many preserved it, according to legend one had to become a monk to learn this aspect. There is the "Needle in Cotton" fist but this is only one of many internal sets and exercises. There very well could be some remnants of Simhanada Vajramushti "Taolu" (Both Martial and Qigong) in some branches, but I'm sure they has been Sino-fied as well.

 

[Nobody Important]

Moved from Wing Chun forum.

Nobody Important said:
Systems based on White Crane or influenced by it have a unique theoretical approach to their systems. Looking at Tibetan Crane, Yong Chun Crane, Hung Gar, Goju Ryu, Uechi Ryu and even Wing Chun IMO. These arts all revolve around a foundation set that they view as the beginning and ending of their systems. Its how the foundation set is viewed that sets it apart. Generally in the beginning it is viewed more as a "Body Building" method than anything else with generic Ji Ben exercises and methods assuming the role for basic instruction.Thisfoundation set is then built upon and extrapolated as they progress, which is a standard approach. Much of the generic material used for basic training actually contains simplified advanced elements of training that will be continuously revisited and refined as progression is made. The foundation set is used to reinforce theory whereas the advanced material is used to teach practical application of theory. This is the White Crane method of circular training, where advanced is beginner and beginner is advanced, this is to avoid contradiction later on. It can be confusing if not methodically approached

Flying Crane replied:
Not a bad answer. Where is your information/experience coming from?

I would suggest that Lok lik Kuen is by far the most important set, tho I think a lot of people would disagree because it is so "simple", being "only" a series of six different punches done in a row and return. But that simplicity establishes the foundational rotation driven by the legs that the entire system is built upon. Of course the fundamentals are established in the basic practice of the Chay San rotation practice and manifests in practice of basic punches, but that set then takes those fundamentals and tweeks them into something directly functional and less theoretical. By the way, Sifu feels most people misunderstand the Six Power to be in reference to the six punching techniques practiced in that set. He feels the real meaning is that the set gives you awareness of the six directions from which an enemy can attack and you must defend: Front, Back, Left, Right, Up, and Down.

The other sets, starting with chuit yap bo apply those fundamentals in a wider variety of ways, giving examples of how to use them in any situation, including smaller movements. Incidentally, we do CYB as one long form, but if broken into two shorter sets we simply refer to them as CYB and the second half is Dae Saat (not sure if I'm spelling that correctly) which i believe means something like Ground Spirit/Demon.

As for the Shooting Star Fist, Sifu uses that term to describe the beginner level curriculum, which is Lok lik Kuen (basic level), CYB, Tit Lin Kuen, and Pak Hok Kuen. This is where the student learns speed in his techniques and that is what Shooting Star refers to.

The Flying Crane Fist he uses in reference to the intermediate curriculum, which is Siu Kum Kong Kuen, Siu Lohan Kuen, and Siu Ng Hing Kuen. This is means the long fist techniques, solidifying full body connection through big movements.

We don't have sets that are actually named Flying Crane, nor Shooting Star. I wonder if there may have been an older curriculum that used those names, and that was morphed into the current series. If so, my guess is that would have been done by Ng Siu-Chung, who established the Bak Hok lineage as separate from Hop Gar. Either way, I don't remember sifu ever saying such a thing and he makes no mention of it in his books, to my recollection.

Cotton Needle is the last set. People think it's White Crane's taiji, but it isn't. Instead it takes the principles of the system, the rooted power and the rotation, and puts them into a compact form done slowly and deliberately and methodically. It is practicing the same thing, the same principles, but refined and without the big movement. Of course smaller movement is in the system well before cotton needle, but from what I've seen, that's cotton needle. Sifu never talks about it in terms of taiji, or qi development and such. I believe he has said straight out, it's not taiji. I've not learned the set, but I've seen my sihing practice it many times with Sifu's guidance and the connected discussions, and I've seen Sifu do it many times as well, so I've definitely got some familiarity with it