Thrusting Wedge, Twist Of Fate & Parting Wings-Front 2 Hand High Push

[Flying Crane]

Yes, it is a natural enough movement for the average joe to do instinctively. The push is impossible to perform without the inherent index. If I am pushing a relatively flat surface such as the chest of a human, it requires me to flex my wrist, pointing my fingers towards the sky, and extend my arms. People don't push with their elbows collapsed to their body. Their instincts will tell them this wont work and they will extend their arms. So certain index's are a byproduct of human evolution and making the most out of our physical frame. I.e. having the most power in a push.

The major differences in attack will not lie in the index or not indexing of the hand/arms, but in height, angle of attack, body mass, etc...

OK, that's the kind of answer I was looking for.

I will say, however, that when I want to give something a good solid shove, I will sometimes bend my elbows downward and brace them against the sides of my torso, and engage my whole body into the push. If I was trying to do this to a person, I think I might do it this way as well, or I might do it with the arms more extended. I think for me, it might depend on the circumstances. The bent-elbows braced method might be faster at a short distance, and would come in under the radar and be a big surprise for someone who's attention is focused high. Might be an effective sneak attack. Of course a proper sneak attack is difficult to defend against for that very reason. Just my own thoughts based on my own experience.

 

[Bode]

I will say, however, that when I want to give something a good solid shove, I will sometimes bend my elbows downward and brace them against the sides of my torso, and engage my whole body into the push. If I was trying to do this to a person, I think I might do it this way as well, or I might do it with the arms more extended. I think for me, it might depend on the circumstances. The bent-elbows braced method might be faster at a short distance, and would come in under the radar and be a big surprise for someone who's attention is focused high. Might be an effective sneak attack. Of course a proper sneak attack is difficult to defend against for that very reason. Just my own thoughts based on my own experience.

I could see dropping the elbows in the second scenario you describe, with the goal being a "sneak attack". However, bracing your elbows against your body will not give you a more powerful push. You simply cannot get effective leverage this way (wish we could stand on the mat together and I'd show you).

In addition, dropping the elbows so far that they are touching the body, changes the nature of the attack. In this posture I would venture to say 1) the response would be different and 2) The point about being able to laterally move the attackers arms is moot. It would be easy with the elbows touching the body. You have no lateral strength in the arms, unlike when they are extended. Try it....

 

[Flying Crane]

I could see dropping the elbows in the second scenario you describe, with the goal being a "sneak attack". However, bracing your elbows against your body will not give you a more powerful push. You simply cannot get effective leverage this way (wish we could stand on the mat together and I'd show you).

In addition, dropping the elbows so far that they are touching the body, changes the nature of the attack. In this posture I would venture to say 1) the response would be different and 2) The point about being able to laterally move the attackers arms is moot. It would be easy with the elbows touching the body. You have no lateral strength in the arms, unlike when they are extended. Try it....

fair enough, i'll play with that a bit. thx.

 

[MattJ]

Interesting responses.

Quote by Flying Crane -

I think in a prior thread a while back, Doc advocated these techniques be used against an attempted bearhug, rather than a push. The attacking arms will be wider as he tries to encircle you, so the need to separate the arms with outward blocks is a non-issue. Instead, step forward and use agressive double outward jamming knifehand blocks to the upper arms to stop the attack, and then proceed with the defense. If I remember correctly...

OK, that I have not heard before. That would probably be a better application than against a push, IMHO. But that begs the question why it is taught against the push.

Quote by HKphooey -

Law of averages: Find twenty participants, ask all to push you. Use the results to help you establish what is the most common. I am not trying to say you are incorrect. Just stating there are variables in all experiments.

Ask a few people to throw a straight punch. I bet you will have at least one person cross step with the opposite leg.

You had mentioned non-compliant testing. Telling someone what to do is compliance. That is is not science, that is predetermining the outcome.

I agree with this. I sometimes feel that AKK people over-analyze what are not really complicated scenarios. I do feel that a group sample can be good representation, even if it is not pure science.

Quote by Doc -

You don't get it.

I guess I don't either. Can you elaborate please? Do you not teach these techniques or do you alter the attacks?

 

[Bode]

OK, that I have not heard before. That would probably be a better application than against a push, IMHO. But that begs the question why it is taught against the push.

Attack the arms on the vertical plane for a push. They are very weak given the body posture. Pretty sure Alternating Maces is a good example. (Assuming we do it similarly).

 

[Flying Crane]

OK, that I have not heard before. That would probably be a better application than against a push, IMHO. But that begs the question why it is taught against the push.

I think this is a good question. It will be interesting to see what people think about this.

 

[Doc]

I think this is a good question. It will be interesting to see what people think about this.

Category completion unfortunately.

When a scientific model is properly studied so there is an understanding of how the attack is likely to be delivered, than a properly formulated defense can be created. Whether the attacker is skilled or not is irrelevent to proper technique execution. A good defense model should account for any minor variations in the assault with no significant change in the technique model. If your model cannot do this, than it is not a good model. Further, any major changes in the assault should be covered by other well defined assault defense scenarios. Therefore there is no need for this 'what/even if' thought process. If the question is not answered, its because you haven't got there yet. Unfortunately some Kenpo people want to account for everything immediately, today, right now, instead of concentrating on basic skills that will suffice in 99% of confrontations, and the wildcard 1% is covered by another technique.

You cannot get to these kind of models without strict examination of the possibilities under strict guidelines. It is a process for knowledgeable instructors, that is passed to students to execute. What some consider "ideal" is what this process could be called. However unless you have a teacher who formulates 'your ideal' from a vast knowledge base of reality gleaned from his teacher, scientific analysis, and personal experiences, than students are perpetually locked into conversations like this. Parker presented the 'ideal' model and allowed students to tailor it to their chossing. Commercially successful, but realistic for most, a disaster.

These type attacks and one of the techniques was discussed by me recently over on KenpoTalk. Check it out.

 

[Flying Crane]

Category completion unfortunately.

What would be the category to complete? I understood this to be categorization of type of attack, i.e. if someone can push you high, they can push you low, so prepare a defense against both types. A high push to the chest region seems likely, so preparing defenses for this possibility seems reasonable. Is the type of movement in the technique completing a certain category?

If these really don't work against a push, but they do work against an attempted bear-hug, why not just acknowledge that up front and formally make the change? Perhaps you have done that but since I don't know your curriculum I am in the dark.

appreciate the reply.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Catagory completion usualy is a representative of Family groupings of techniques. Family groupings center on the motion you are making or on the nature of the attack. You may even group the entire system behind any given tech for any reason.
Sean

 

[Doc]

What would be the category to complete? I understood this to be categorization of type of attack, i.e. if someone can push you high, they can push you low, so prepare a defense against both types. A high push to the chest region seems likely, so preparing defenses for this possibility seems reasonable. Is the type of movement in the technique completing a certain category?

If these really don't work against a push, but they do work against an attempted bear-hug, why not just acknowledge that up front and formally make the change? Perhaps you have done that but since I don't know your curriculum I am in the dark.

appreciate the reply.

Depending upon interpretation of the individual techniqes, in one of the three under discussion, you would go inside the arms; high, low, middle, wide, narrow, stepping forward, backwards, etc.

Yes I have already done that. I never learned techniques under the guidleines of category completion, but have been witness to the folly of it. I have guidleines that are built around the material being progressive in the teaching of its mechanisms, and absolute functionality. Category completion keeps you 'busy' figuring out how to make something work that you shouldn't be doing in the first place. You may have five categories and three of them are OK but the other two are thrown in for 'busy work.'

It's usually one of those techniques that you quietly say to yourself, "I would NEVER try to do some crap like that on the street."

 

[Flying Crane]

Depending upon interpretation of the individual techniqes, in one of the three under discussion, you would go inside the arms; high, low, middle, wide, narrow, stepping forward, backwards, etc.

Yes I have already done that. I never learned techniques under the guidleines of category completion, but have been witness to the folly of it. I have guidleines that are built around the material being progressive in the teaching of its mechanisms, and absolute functionality. Category completion keeps you 'busy' figuring out how to make something work that you shouldn't be doing in the first place. You may have five categories and three of them are OK but the other two are thrown in for 'busy work.'

It's usually one of those techniques that you quietly say to yourself, "I would NEVER try to do some crap like that on the street."

OK, I see where you are coming from on this.

I was never taught the concept of "category completion". Rather, I was just taught the techniques as they were, and we worked them. I never actually heard of the concept until I found MartialTalk.

Given that, I can certainly relate to the idea of "I would NEVER try to do some crap like that on the street." I have had that notion many times over.

 

[Doc]

OK, I see where you are coming from on this.

I was never taught the concept of "category completion". Rather, I was just taught the techniques as they were, and we worked them. I never actually heard of the concept until I found MartialTalk.

Given that, I can certainly relate to the idea of "I would NEVER try to do some crap like that on the street." I have had that notion many times over.

Everyone who has studied commercial kenpo karate has been subjected to category completion in some form. It's part and parcel of the product.

 

[Flying Crane]

Everyone who has studied commercial kenpo karate has been subjected to category completion in some form. It's part and parcel of the product.

Tracys for me. Not sure if that falls under the same category. If so, it was never presented to me as such.

 

[Doc]

Tracys for me. Not sure if that falls under the same category. If so, it was never presented to me as such.

No, that came along after the Tracy's had left. Even in commercial Kenpo-Karate it isn't necessarily talked about to students, but it was utilized to complete and flesh out the curriculum, so it exsists whether its liked or not.

 

[Carol]

OK, that I have not heard before. That would probably be a better application than against a push, IMHO. But that begs the question why it is taught against the push.

I think this is a good question. It will be interesting to see what people think about this.

I asked my instructor the same question when the discussion of Parting Wings was going about a few months back. He confirmed that Parting Wings was originaly defense against a grab, and not a push.

I asked why it was taught as a defense against a push, he said two things: that it was easier to teach, and that it was more of a defense against the "push in the lunchroom" that kids do to one another.

 

[Kenpodoc]

This may fall outside of this discussion but I'll insert it. I personally can't do Parting Wings as taught against a strong push. I can however step off to 4:30 and and do it apparently effectively outside of the pushers Left arm.

Jeff

 

[Kenpodoc]

Doc,

I may have misread you above. you mentioned parting wings as a category completion technique. I've heard second hand that Dave Hebler at one of Sean Kelley's seminars said that "in the old days all we did was the Five Count (Five Swords) and the Four count (Parting Wings) in different variations every night." I'm sure this was exageration and I didn't hear him say it myself but I had assume that Parting wings was one of the old techniques because of this.

Jeff

 

[Doc]

Doc,

I may have misread you above. you mentioned parting wings as a category completion technique. I've heard second hand that Dave Hebler at one of Sean Kelley's seminars said that "in the old days all we did was the Five Count (Five Swords) and the Four count (Parting Wings) in different variations every night." I'm sure this was exageration and I didn't hear him say it myself but I had assume that Parting wings was one of the old techniques because of this.

Jeff

Yes sir the techniques existed long before 'category completion' came into being, however it's not the technique that completed the category in this case, but the attack.

Nice thinking on changing the angle and going outside. Of course that violates the technique category, but it does work. It's a choice.

 

[MJS]

Quote by Doc -



I guess I don't either. Can you elaborate please? Do you not teach these techniques or do you alter the attacks?

Yes, Matt, that is a good question, and one that I'm still waiting for an answer to myself. I see alot of talk of why it won't work and experiments that we can try, but I (unless I'm still missing it) don't see an explaination. :idunno: If someone is going to say a tech. won't work because of "X" reason, thats perfectly fine, but at least be kind enough to go into some detail as to a) how to make the tech. work or b) what you do to make it work.

Perhaps Doc, Bode or Dr. Dave can provide an answer to this. If its simply a matter of not wanting to post this info. out of concern that this'll turn into a my style vs. your style thread, please feel free to PM me. My PM box still has room in it!

Mike

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

I'm probably going to get killed for posting this, but here goes:

When the hands are in the "pushing" position (wrists flexed, fingers pointing to the sky, arms extended) the arms are strong(er) on the horizontal plane and weak(er) on the vertical plane.

Experiment 1: Have someone stand with there arms extended with their hands in the pushing position. Try to push them in or out on the horizontal plane with them resisting the push.

Experiment 2: Have someone stand with there arms extended with their hands in the pushing position. Try to push down on their arms with them resisting the push.

Which is easier? With that in mind, how do you adapt the technique to accomadate this discrepency (if any)?