Throws in Isshin-Ryu

[elder999]

Not an Isshin-ryu guy, but I've played with a few over the last 45 years or so *(Tony Schifano, where are you??)
However, every kata in Isshin-ryu that has an equivalent in Shotokan or Kyokushin (which is my style, and partially derived from Shotokan) has at least one throw in the bunkai......ask your teacher.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Not an Isshin-ryu guy, but I've played with a few over the last 45 years or so *(Tony Schifano, where are you??)
However, every kata in Isshin-ryu that has an equivalent in Shotokan or Kyokushin (which is my style, and partially derived from Shotokan) has at least one throw in the bunkai......ask your teacher.

True. The so-called secrets. There are also some nifty moves that sure resemble aikido to me. But what do I know?

 

[isshinryuronin]

Not an Isshin-ryu guy, but I've played with a few over the last 45 years or so *(Tony Schifano, where are you??)
However, every kata in Isshin-ryu that has an equivalent in Shotokan or Kyokushin (which is my style, and partially derived from Shotokan) has at least one throw in the bunkai......ask your teacher.

There are many takedowns. Perhaps the distinction is in the semantics. I consider a "throw" as vertically lifting the opponent designed so both feet leave the ground. The only move in traditional isshinryu kata that comes close to that description is the "dumping" throw found in Wansu kata (Sunsu kata, found only in isshinryu, has the same move, but that form is composed of techniques borrowed from other kata, including Wansu).

My teacher is the senior American student of Okinawan isshinryu master, Uechi Sensei. Individual schools and other styles may have different bunkai for a move. This is especially true of a style like Kyokushin which is a couple of steps distanced from their kata's Okinawan roots. I have never seen isshinryu Masters Tatsuo Shimabuku, his son Kichiro, his son-in- law Angi Uezo (RIP) or Angi's heir Tsuyoshi Uechi, or their students, do a kata throw in any video other than in Wansu.

Please describe a kata we have in common and identify a specific technique your style describes as a throw. I would be interested in the similarity. Also note, isshinryu's kata (and other styles) may be differently executed than other styles' kata of the same name. But maybe there's a blank spot in my knowledge.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

There are many takedowns. Perhaps the distinction is in the semantics. I consider a "throw" as vertically lifting the opponent designed so both feet leave the ground. The only move in traditional isshinryu kata that comes close to that description is the "dumping" throw found in Wansu kata (Sunsu kata, found only in isshinryu, has the same move, but that form is composed of techniques borrowed from other kata, including Wansu).

My teacher is the senior American student of Okinawan isshinryu master, Uechi Sensei. Individual schools and other styles may have different bunkai for a move. This is especially true of a style like Kyokushin which is a couple of steps distanced from their kata's Okinawan roots. I have never seen isshinryu Masters Tatsuo Shimabuku, his son Kichiro, his son-in- law Angi Uezo (RIP) or Angi's heir Tsuyoshi Uechi, or their students, do a kata throw in any video other than in Wansu.

Please describe a kata we have in common and identify a specific technique your style describes as a throw. I would be interested in the similarity. Also note, isshinryu's kata (and other styles) may be differently executed than other styles' kata of the same name. But maybe there's a blank spot in my knowledge.

I may be incorrect calling it a throw, but one of the infinite bunkai for the double overhead block in Seisan develops the block into a grasp, seize, twist, turn, and throw (or takedown if you prefer).

The elbow lift in Sunsu can likewise be developed into an armbar or a throw.

Takedown also works as a description though. As you said, not a proper $ss over teakettle type throw.

Frankly I never much thought of the Wansu dump as a throw either. Not even a proper dump. More of an inner thigh seize and toss technique, albeit while turning and bouncing their noggin off the pavement.

 

[isshinryuronin]

but one of the infinite bunkai for the double overhead block in Seisan develops the block into a grasp, seize, twist, turn, and throw (or takedown if you prefer).

This is the "correct" bunkai as I see it as it correlates exactly with arm and footwork, makes perfect sense and is effective. Whatever way one interprets the "double head block," it can go into a grab. And I much prefer "takedown" to describe this maneuver. The line between "throw" and "takedown" is not sharply drawn in MA's general lexicon, but I have my own clear distinction: If it looks like a stereotypical judo move with a flying body, it's a throw. If it's short and tight with a foot on the ground during execution, it's a takedown. But even then, there is some gray area where one turns into the other.

The elbow lift in Sunsu can likewise be developed into an armbar or a throw.

If you mean the move before the spinning rear elbow while in seiunchin stance, I see the combo as an elbow break. IMO, armbar alludes to a submission hold requiring maintaining it for a while. Not the karate way. Not a throw and probably not even a takedown (as there doesn't seem to be hip or leg leverage for that) but capable of swinging him around.

 

[Buka]

Not an Isshin-ryu guy, but I've played with a few over the last 45 years or so *(Tony Schifano, where are you??)
However, every kata in Isshin-ryu that has an equivalent in Shotokan or Kyokushin (which is my style, and partially derived from Shotokan) has at least one throw in the bunkai......ask your teacher.

Dude! Nice to read you again. Hope all is well and rocking in your world.

 

[punisher73]

These kata predate judo. Wansu's origins date from the 1600's and the karate version dates from Matsumura, mid 1800's. So, no, this is not such an example.

As a counterpoint, I would say that Shimabuku heavily changed Wansu kata with his own combat ideas. Also, that Shimabuku taught the “fireman’s carry” throw as the application for those movements.

So, whether or not the katas themselves predated the sport of Judo. We know that is what Shimabuku taught and what he wanted those moves to represent.

There is also the “Yoridama” (leg catch throw) in the Bubishi that also is similar to the movements in Wansu.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

If you mean the move before the spinning rear elbow while in seiunchin stance, I see the combo as an elbow break. IMO, armbar alludes to a submission hold requiring maintaining it for a while. Not the karate way. Not a throw and probably not even a takedown (as there doesn't seem to be hip or leg leverage for that) but capable of swinging him around.

Yes, that's what I am referring to. Elbow break when hyperextended over the shoulder. I referred to it as an armbar only because of the commonality between the two moves - opponent's thumb must be up to properly cause the hyperextension over the shoulder of their elbow.

However, by pulling the opponent closer to you as you pull their attacking hand over your shoulder, it can be developed into a type of Judo-esqe ippon seoi nage, if you will. Loose and sloppy, perhaps, but still a shoulder throw. In this case, the rearward higi no ato tsuki becomes a helper as you bend forward to complete the throw.

Again, not obvious or commonly-taught Omote (it is what it appears to be) bunkai. More Oyo.

In my dojo, we talk (laugh) about the 'secret scrolls of kumite', which begs the question - if they're secret, how is it we know them? But more clearly, these are taught in our dojo at the advanced level, and I'm a mere beginner in that realm. My sensei learned as a direct student of Harrill and Mitchum, who between them spent a lot of time developing bunkai and passing on received training. We've also watched and practiced the videos made by John Bartusevics, a direct student of Shimabuku.

I've seen dozens of techniques developed out of things as simple as the final move in Wansu (one hand kamei) and the stand up after the final kneeling punch in Chinto. It's head-spinning with the sheer number of esoteric and potentially viable applications. My shins seem permanently ouchy-d from being uki to the step over in the first stepping move in Naihanchi. It goes on and on, endlessly fascinated.

I've gone way off topic, but I wanted to add that according to my sensei, both Harrill and Mitchum were also huge fans of the basics. Block 'em and clock 'em with a middle body block / straight punch. Works really well. My sensei told me that both men could deliver a side block that would cause your soul to leave your body.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

As a counterpoint, I would say that Shimabuku heavily changed Wansu kata with his own combat ideas. Also, that Shimabuku taught the “fireman’s carry” throw as the application for those movements.

So, whether or not the katas themselves predated the sport of Judo. We know that is what Shimabuku taught and what he wanted those moves to represent.

There is also the “Yoridama” (leg catch throw) in the Bubishi that also is similar to the movements in Wansu.

Very interesting. I had not seen the yoridama before, but I googled it. Cool. Similar as you said, although the Wansu dump does presuppose intercepting a right leg kick, as I understand it, leading to the (ugh) fireman's carry. I think it's an ugly technique and I don't care for it, even though my body type is build for that sort of thing; I'm medium height and squatty build, strong legs. I've done many fireman carries in the Marine Corps. There's no elegant or simple way of completing the throw from that carry without bending forward and really stretching out your spine and ducking your head. I hate it.

I much prefer to use the interception of the right kick as a seize of the inner thigh near the groin, right in the femoral artery region, and then using my right shoulder and spinning momentum to turn/toss the opponent, but without attempting to lift them off the ground. They're going to be doing a one leg hop as I spin them and dealing with the pain of having their inside thigh painfully seized/pinched.

 

[punisher73]

There are many takedowns. Perhaps the distinction is in the semantics. I consider a "throw" as vertically lifting the opponent designed so both feet leave the ground. The only move in traditional isshinryu kata that comes close to that description is the "dumping" throw found in Wansu kata (Sunsu kata, found only in isshinryu, has the same move, but that form is composed of techniques borrowed from other kata, including Wansu).

This clarifies one of the questions that I asked in my first post.

We also differentiate between a takedown, throw and dump.

Takedown is a more generic term for us that we are moving the attacker from a vertical position to a horizontal position.

A dump is taking their center of gravity and uprooting it and “grounding” them almost in place.

A throw is taking their center and uprooting it and “relocating” them to a different place.

I realize that there is an overlap between the definitions and the techniques themselves. But, its a good distinction for what we are trying to accomplish with the technique.

 

[Cri70]

That's exactly my point. I said earlier in the thread that you'll often find people using judo throws to explain certain parts of karate kata. That's something that should be avoided.

I don't recall exactly, but isn't so that when Funakoshi and Jigorō became acquainted, the latter liked some karate throws and incorporated them in Judo, and that was one reason for the former to remove them from his karate classes?

 

[isshinryuronin]

when Funakoshi and Jigorō became acquainted, the latter liked some karate throws and incorporated them in Judo, and that was one reason for the former to remove them from his karate classes?

The reason judo type throws were removed from Japanese karate was to keep judo's "monopoly" on them. MA was very regulated and organized with government oversight and it was thought this would separate these two arts and keep them distinct from one another. Judo was very well established by the time karate took hold in Japan and they likely did not want karate to usurp their curriculum. It was a matter of politics.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I would say that Shimabuku heavily changed Wansu kata with his own combat ideas. Also, that Shimabuku taught the “fireman’s carry” throw as the application for those movements.

Yes, Shimabuku made a number of changes in Wansu (one of the perks of being the master) including adding a couple of sidekicks which aren't found in the other Shuri-te styles. The "dumping" throw is one they all (I think) have in common, though they may differ a bit in the exact application of it.