Classical Fighting Arts on Isshin-Ryu

[Bill Mattocks]

Part of the problem is that, Shimabuku did issue out high rank to the early american students and didn't expect them to use it and that caused issues with the more traditional okinawan students.

I cannot claim to know why Shimabuku Soke awarded 6th Dan to many of the American students who studied on Okinawa for only a year and then went home to the USA. If I knew nothing of Isshin-Ryu besides that, it would raise my eyebrows as well.

There are many stories about that and what was meant by it, but I do not have first-hand knowledge of any of that, so I won't repeat it here. I will state what I have observed, which is something that an outsider to Isshin-Ryu could not possibly know.

The first-generation students that I know of came back to the USA and continued their studies on their own, in what certainly appears to have been a very diligent manner. There may have been some drift in some cases, and in others, there may be some differences simply based on what they learned when they were with Shimabuku Soke on Okinawa, as he apparently did change his methods several times in minor ways.

What I do know is that the first-generation students I know of practice their kata and it looks the same as those seen in the videos available of Tatsuo Shimabuku. I also know that Shimabuku Soke was brought to the US on various occasions, where he had the opportunity to see various of his students and to apply corrections and fix any problems he found. The fact that these students kept working, and basically 'kept the faith' after such a long time, is nothing short of amazing to me.

And I think that due to the language barrier that things got stated as facts due to their impressions and not necessarily due to outright lies. For example, the early students thinking that Shimabuku was the top student of Miyagi and Kyan. Very few of the early students ever came back to continue their studies with Shimabuku to see what changes/refinements that he had made since they were last with him. I have even seen people try and make money teaching Isshin-Ryu's "lost kata" (gojushiho), which wasn't lost at all, it was dropped by Shimabuku because he didn't like it and was never a part of Isshin-Ryu, which only muddies the waters because it casts doubt on what IR is/was.

I agree. At least one story is told of a first-generation student of Shimabuku Soke who said that he thought that Soke was calling him 'Hey You' for months, because he did not realize it was Soke's attempt to pronounce his last name. I believe a lot was taught by pointing and demonstrating at that time. I do not know this as personal knowledge, just what I have been told.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

On a related note, why is Isshinryu a dying art on Okinawa? Did it never reach critical mass among the natives, after Shimabuku's students left him for Shorin-ryu proper? Without stirring the pot I hope, is there an element of prejudice there, given the many high ranking exponents of the system in the US?

I do not know. Without getting into politics (and I am absolutely not qualified to offer an opinion there), I can only say that it seems there was a minor battle for succession and it caused a splintering effect, with several Okinawan students of Master Shimabuku essentially setting up their own shop and calling it 'Isshin-Ryu'; but this is public knowledge, not a secret. It is documented in several books and online. Some, it appears, have ceased active training, perhaps not least of all because of physical illness. Other than that, I cannot say.

 

[punisher73]

I cannot claim to know why Shimabuku Soke awarded 6th Dan to many of the American students who studied on Okinawa for only a year and then went home to the USA. If I knew nothing of Isshin-Ryu besides that, it would raise my eyebrows as well.

There are many stories about that and what was meant by it, but I do not have first-hand knowledge of any of that, so I won't repeat it here. I will state what I have observed, which is something that an outsider to Isshin-Ryu could not possibly know.

The first-generation students that I know of came back to the USA and continued their studies on their own, in what certainly appears to have been a very diligent manner. There may have been some drift in some cases, and in others, there may be some differences simply based on what they learned when they were with Shimabuku Soke on Okinawa, as he apparently did change his methods several times in minor ways.

What I do know is that the first-generation students I know of practice their kata and it looks the same as those seen in the videos available of Tatsuo Shimabuku. I also know that Shimabuku Soke was brought to the US on various occasions, where he had the opportunity to see various of his students and to apply corrections and fix any problems he found. The fact that these students kept working, and basically 'kept the faith' after such a long time, is nothing short of amazing to me.



I agree. At least one story is told of a first-generation student of Shimabuku Soke who said that he thought that Soke was calling him 'Hey You' for months, because he did not realize it was Soke's attempt to pronounce his last name. I believe a lot was taught by pointing and demonstrating at that time. I do not know this as personal knowledge, just what I have been told.

You are correct. I said that Tatsuo Shimabuku didn't "expect them to use it". I should have stated that he didn't expect them to use it right away and told them that they had to study a number of years to earn the higher grade. I agree with you, that it is a big political landmine between Tatsuo's first son, his son-in-law and many american students. No good can come from it and only further divides it.

 

[punisher73]

I do not know. Without getting into politics (and I am absolutely not qualified to offer an opinion there), I can only say that it seems there was a minor battle for succession and it caused a splintering effect, with several Okinawan students of Master Shimabuku essentially setting up their own shop and calling it 'Isshin-Ryu'; but this is public knowledge, not a secret. It is documented in several books and online. Some, it appears, have ceased active training, perhaps not least of all because of physical illness. Other than that, I cannot say.

Agreed. I have heard one first generation student state that Tatsuo Shimabuku was a genius when it came to the martial arts and what he did, but was a lousy business man. The comment was reflecting that before his death Tatsuo did not put into place his successorship, nor did he put into writing or make his wishes known the direction he wanted IR to go. So, you do have different students who learned at different times all doing their best to respect their master and his teaches.

Truth be told, I have looked into all of the other mainstream traditional okinawan arts (Shorin, Goju, Uechi) and ALL of them have this same type of stuff going on. Everyone claims that their instructor/association teaches the way that founder so and so did and that the others don't, or that their instructor/association was taught the deeper hidden meanings of X because he was the top student. It all comes down to this; all of us as martial artists are on a personal journey and our study will reflect where our instructor was at in his/her journey when we studied with them. I think all of us would cringe if our journey was frozen in place by our students after we had moved on and refined our knowledge and saw them saying that "this is the way" that we wanted it done.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

You are correct. I said that Tatsuo Shimabuku didn't "expect them to use it". I should have stated that he didn't expect them to use it right away and told them that they had to study a number of years to earn the higher grade. I agree with you, that it is a big political landmine between Tatsuo's first son, his son-in-law and many american students. No good can come from it and only further divides it.

I know that attempts have been made to bridge the gap and to create associations that resolve differences. It is unfortunate that they have not come to fruition for whatever reason. The closest I have seen in the US has been the IHOF, and that's not all-inclusive. But on the other hand, I have attended and been welcomed at seminars and tournaments sponsored by associations other than my own (I am UIKA). No one has ever treated me badly or told me I am 'wrong' or anything like that, either. In my own dojo where I am a student, I have never heard a negative words spoken about ANY Isshin-Ryu practitioner, especially those who are first-generation students of Tatsuo Shimabuku. They are all spoken of with the highest respect. The most I have ever heard said is what I have seen for my own eyes as well; some katas are performed slightly differently. This, again, is no secret, and probably does not make either one way or another 'wrong', IMHO. I note also (and again, only personally, I speak for no one but myself and especially not for Isshin-Ryu) that some Isshin-Ryu practitioners are more into block/punch/kick straight-ahead karate, and some are more into the intricacies of the bunkai and how each application can be used.

That, by the way, is one of the aspects of Isshin-Ryu that makes me feel that the author is in error about Shimabuku Soke creating Isshin-Ryu out of whole cloth. I have never, ever, had a moment when I asked one of my Sensei how a certain application works, or what the bunkai is for a given move in a kata, and not had it explained and very clearly demonstrated to show that oh yes, it does indeed work, and work very well. Boy howdy, does it work. This is not (I believe) possible with something that is 'made up' with no basis in 'real' karate. You can do a bad block a thousand ways, but it is always a bad block. A good block is hard to master but easy to do, and it works, and when you have applied it correctly and you get hit, you know it works. That cannot be made up, IMHO. The teaching I receive is real and solid and can be depended upon.

 

[dancingalone]

Truth be told, I have looked into all of the other mainstream traditional okinawan arts (Shorin, Goju, Uechi) and ALL of them have this same type of stuff going on. Everyone claims that their instructor/association teaches the way that founder so and so did and that the others don't, or that their instructor/association was taught the deeper hidden meanings of X because he was the top student.

Oh, I agree that splintering is mostly inevitably when a martial arts founder dies. It's a story that has happened time and again in karate and outside of it.

My question had to do specifically with why Isshinryu is an art going extinct on Okinawa. From the bird's eye view, it seems like the style never achieved critical mass among the locals and when Master Shimabuku died, his few remaining Okinawan students could not sustain and grow the art in their native land, though of course Isshinryu is quite viable in America.

The Ryukyuan people can be as tradition bound as their Nipponese cousins. Perhaps in the end, Isshinryu was too 'new' for them.

The most I have ever heard said is what I have seen for my own eyes as well; some katas are performed slightly differently. This, again, is no secret, and probably does not make either one way or another 'wrong',

Indeed it doesn't. I like variation in kata so long as the teachings still have correct structure to them.

 

[scottie]

I agree with every thing you said except this. Wouldn't it be better to convince him he's wrong/being an idiotic jerk than make him 'unable to walk out on his own power'?

There you go being the voice of reason. lol, but you are right.