This is not a repeat of 1830 or 1980

[Skpotamus]

I stand corrected; Hague Convention and not Geneva. In any case, I think we're bound by it, regardless of whether or not others are signatories.

Sorry, too many years in school getting corrected

The actual articles state:
"Article 2 The provisions contained in the Regulations mentioned in Article 1 are only binding on the Contracting Powers, in case of war between two or more of them.
These provisions shall cease to be binding from the time when, in a war between Contracting Powers, a non-Contracting Power joins one of the belligerents." (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/hague02.asp)



Since we're fighting a non signatory group (not even a nation), the conventions don't technically apply (lord knows they don't abide by them). So we could in fact use the nasty stuff and have legal loophole to do so, the world media would crucify us and it would take a political leader willing to sacrifice his/her career to do it.


I just always found it odd that we were abiding by rules made over 100 years ago by another country (Tsar Nicholas I held the convention) for a group that no longer exists (league of nations).

 

[sgtmac_46]

Good points, but these mods to the M16 seem a bit like using a lathe as a can opener. You can do it with a lot of modifications and jiggery-pokery. But you might just be better off using a can opener. Or a bolt rifle as the case may be.

Why a bolt rifle? The problem is the round and the extended range, not the operating of the rifle.

The M-14 was well suited to that kind of environment. Something along the lines of the Springfield Arms SOCOM 16 would be an excellent solution that is still well suited to closer ranger operations.



The militaries likely solution, though, will be a modular improvement to the M4/M16 platform that will fire a .30 caliber round. There is some merit to this as it allows a multi-caliber application to a single platform, thereby reducing the amount of trainining required for operators. A single platform can perform a multitude of functions with minimal modification.

 

[lklawson]

Stop guzzling the Kool Aid for a moment.

Gently.

Obama is carrying out Bush's policies to the letter with the same SoD and the same Pentagon Brass. He's escalated right on schedule, decided that expanding the invasion into Pakistan is just fine and has even set up a few new no-tell Black prisons and torture centers. That should give an erection to all of the Unending War crowd.

Yes, it's clear that Obama and the Democrat majority Congress are NOT the "doves" that they claimed to be. How many of their "dove" constituents will notice?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

#1 I don't drink cool aid.

Gently.

#3 Barack Obama said we were leaving Afghanistan, oops did he lie (again)

Yes, it's clear that Obama is not really interested in being a "dove" and only gave it lip service in order to attack Bush and the Republicans. The Democrats, while under Bush, were pushing to "de-fund the war." No hint of this "must be done to end the illegal war" push since Obama took office.

Nor will you see any. The Democrats are NOT "doves" except when it is politically convenient for them to appear to be so.

But again, everyone: gently.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Since we're fighting a non signatory group (not even a nation), the conventions don't technically apply (lord knows they don't abide by them). So we could in fact use the nasty stuff and have legal loophole to do so, the world media would crucify us and it would take a political leader willing to sacrifice his/her career to do it.


I just always found it odd that we were abiding by rules made over 100 years ago by another country (Tsar Nicholas I held the convention) for a group that no longer exists (league of nations).

Fair enough; I'll accept that we have no legal obligation to refrain from using expanding rounds in Afghanistan. Thanks for pointing it out to me.

I'll say that I doubt very much that we will stop using ball (FMJ) ammo, regardless of the legalities of the situation, if for no other reason than the current logistics. I would also argue (actually continue arguing) that the issue is not the lack of expanding bullets hitting terrorist flesh, but the inability of our current 5.56 ammo to be as useful at the distances we're being engaged.

I have *not* been reading about high numbers of adversaries being shot and walking away. I *have* been reading about our inability to engage the enemy with accurate rifle fire at the distances they are engaging us at. This to me indicates not a bullet-shape argument but a distance argument.

A larger caliber would be superior and both weapons and ammunition are NATO approved, and millions of such surplus weapons are currently in our warehouses and ready for re-issue. I'd prefer to see our troops re-armed with M-14's and even M1 Garands in Afghanistan than the current M16-based systems; at least for the patrols.

 

[Archangel M]

The militaries likely solution, though, will be a modular improvement to the M4/M16 platform that will fire a .30 caliber round. There is some merit to this as it allows a multi-caliber application to a single platform, thereby reducing the amount of trainining required for operators. A single platform can perform a multitude of functions with minimal modification.

QFT. What they are waiting for is the question...

 

[David43515]

Well ther`s no doubt that at the ranges that kind of terrain makes available a heavier and more powerful caliber is called for. But when I read the article yesterday they were very clear that this isn`t that common of a situation. Yes, the Afgans have alot of the old British Enfields, but they have alot more Soviet AKs, so most of them have the same range limitations we have with the .223.Until it`s proved ineffective, I`m thinking the designated marksmen program might be enough.

 

[knuckleheader]

Stop guzzling the Kool Aid for a moment. Obama is carrying out Bush's policies to the letter with the same SoD and the same Pentagon Brass. He's escalated right on schedule, decided that expanding the invasion into Pakistan is just fine and has even set up a few new no-tell Black prisons and torture centers. That should give an erection to all of the Unending War crowd.

Political intervention? War is entirely political. It always has been. The problem is that when your Leader started waving his little saber around he had no clue what he wanted to do except for one political end. He wanted the slavish devotion and abject fear of the American sheeple. So he made all of you terrified enough to go along with a pair of stupid quagmires with no goals, no exit strategy, no plan other than "kill a lot of people in time for the next elections".

Media interference? I suppose criminals, cowards and cockroaches love the dark. But in a free society where the government is supposed to be responsible to the people there needs to be accountability. And the people need to know the truth. This war was and still is stage-managed by the Pentagon. The atrocities have all been carefully hidden. :BSmeter:The myth of the Glorious Crusade has been blasted at us unceasingly by politically reliable "embedded" journalists, carefully censored and without a shred of independence. Anything which reflects less than Kim Jong-il like religious devotion on the whole sordid mess is shouted down.

Haver another glass of cool aid, pah leazze. LOL

 

[Archangel M]

Well ther`s no doubt that at the ranges that kind of terrain makes available a heavier and more powerful caliber is called for. But when I read the article yesterday they were very clear that this isn`t that common of a situation. Yes, the Afgans have alot of the old British Enfields, but they have alot more Soviet AKs, so most of them have the same range limitations we have with the .223.Until it`s proved ineffective, I`m thinking the designated marksmen program might be enough.

Good point. And while the Afghans were good at the ambush against the Soviets, they are FAR from trained riflemen capable of making 600+ M shots with their rifles. The ranges we are discussing are exactly the reasons we have designated marksmen, machine guns and arty+air.

 

[David43515]

Just slightly off topic, but I`m curious. I know snipers use match grade ammo. Is it strictly all FMJ/ball as well? Or do they use something with more expansion?

 

[lklawson]

Haver another glass of cool aid, pah leazze. LOL

This topic is clearly controversial with many people holding varying opinions. Let's all, please, remain polite.

IOW, "gently."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk