This is how WWII in the Pacific started

[Bill Mattocks]

Remember the past or relive it. This time it is China and not Japan trying to muscle in. Watch and see. I've been beating this drum for awhile now...tell me I'm wrong...

http://www.spacewar.com/reports/China_becoming_more_aggressive_Philippines_999.html

China becoming 'more aggressive': Philippines
by Staff Writers
Phnom Penh (AFP) July 11, 2012
China is growing "more aggressive" in dealing with rival territorial claims, the Philippines said Wednesday, after a fresh spat erupted between Tokyo and Beijing over a remote chain of islands.

"It looks like they are becoming more aggressive every day," said Philippine Foreign Secretary Albert del Rosario, whose own country is locked in a months-long dispute with China over a shoal in the South China Sea.

Beijing on Wednesday asserted its "indisputable sovereignty" over the uninhabited territory in the East China Sea after three Chinese patrol boats approached the islands, prompting Japan to summon the Chinese ambassador.

The dispute, which centres around islands in the East China Sea known as Senkaku in Japanese and Diaoyu in Chinese, is the latest territorial row involving China and its neighbours.

It comes as China and Southeast Asian countries struggle to make progress on a code of conduct to ease tension in the resource-rich South China Sea.

Tensions have flared recently in the area with both Vietnam and the Philippines accusing Beijing of aggression.

China claims essentially all of the South China Sea, home to vital shipping lanes and believed to be rich in oil and gas deposits. Taiwan and ASEAN members the Philippines, Vietnam, Brunei and Malaysia also have claims in the waters.

 

[WC_lun]

I agree wholeheartedly that we need to learn from the past or relive it. China is indeed flexing her muscles, but I do not think they will go so far as to cause war. China's main reasons for doing anything is China and the communist party in power there. War would decimate thier economy, increase the already large income disparity, and in all liklihood cause revolts in many of her provinces. Those in power in China may be many things, but they are not suicidal and they are not stupid.

I have to ask also, what would you have the US do? We cannot confront them militarily, as that would not be supported by the nation and our military has been weakened to much by two prolonged wars for any sustained confrontations. Economically China and the US have become strongly tied so that we would hurt ourselves if we go down that road too far. Though China has been trying to game the system lately, which might open up the doorway a bit to impose some economic incentives.

China is becomming the match of the US economically and militarily in the world. We are going to have to get used to the idea of another country throwing its' weight around like we do. We are also going to have to tread carefully or have any rash decisions come back and bite us in the backside.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I agree wholeheartedly that we need to learn from the past or relive it. China is indeed flexing her muscles, but I do not think they will go so far as to cause war. China's main reasons for doing anything is China and the communist party in power there. War would decimate thier economy, increase the already large income disparity, and in all liklihood cause revolts in many of her provinces. Those in power in China may be many things, but they are not suicidal and they are not stupid.

Just noted yesterday on the financial wires - China's rate of inflation has dropped to nothing. They are about to enter a recessionary period. Defense spending would perk up their economy, not decimate it. They're not planning on going to war with the USA. But they can certainly put us on the ropes by holding all our cards financially so that we do nothing when they re-take Taiwan, take the islands they want from Japan, The Philippines, and Vietnam, and bully India as they have been doing lately.

Their massive military buildup has been to support something. Right? So what would that be?

I have to ask also, what would you have the US do? We cannot confront them militarily, as that would not be supported by the nation and our military has been weakened to much by two prolonged wars for any sustained confrontations. Economically China and the US have become strongly tied so that we would hurt ourselves if we go down that road too far. Though China has been trying to game the system lately, which might open up the doorway a bit to impose some economic incentives.

With the possible exception of Taiwan, I think we'd turn our heads and pretend not to notice, or issue stern rebukes. Consider that some interpretations of the UN Small Arms Treaty would actually require us to stop arming non-signatories, including Taiwan (and possibly Israel).

China is becomming the match of the US economically and militarily in the world. We are going to have to get used to the idea of another country throwing its' weight around like we do. We are also going to have to tread carefully or have any rash decisions come back and bite us in the backside.

Agreed. But we also have to stop pretending that China is our friend. They are not.

 

[zDom]

But we also have to stop pretending that China is our friend. They are not.

Agreed.

 

[seasoned]

I also agree.

Also China has been putting a lot of money into their military. Nukes are great, but China has a powerful standing army, well equipped to put many boots on the ground. But, they would have a lot to lose monetarily.

 

[WC_lun]

I don't think anyone is pretending that China is an ally and friend. However, they are a country that has many of our companies invested in economically and they hold much of our debt. defense spending during war time does bring an upswing to an economy, but it is usually short lived. In this case, an attack on a ally of the US would bring economic sanctions which would hurt China more than any procurement of territory would help them.

However, even if the above was not true, what would you have us do? What actions should we take? Our hands are pretty much tied by our actions to date. Until/unless China actually moves militarily all we can do is pretty much shake our finger at them and give them a strongly worded letter. Oh, and as far as military spending, no one does it like the US and we aren't planning on attacking our nieghbors, so maybe they aren't either...maybe.

 

[billc]

Well, we need to increase the size of our navy for one thing. Japan needs to change its constitution so it can re-militarize before it is too late. We need a different President in office who understands the danger represented by Chinese expansionist desires. We could start there.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Well, we need to increase the size of our navy for one thing. Japan needs to change its constitution so it can re-militarize before it is too late. We need a different President in office who understands the danger represented by Chinese expansionist desires. We could start there.

I don't always agree with you, but I do on the points above.

 

[Tames D]

How do you spell paranoia?

 

[billc]

I think it is spelled "peace in our time."

You can check that spelling here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_for_our_time

 

[WC_lun]

I don't think we need to increase the size of our navy. It is already the largest in the world and it is one area China is no where close to us in readyness and fire power. Also, increasing the navy is also very expensive. We can use that money elsewhere with better effects. The best way to counteract china's influence is stabalize and increase our economy. Jobs and infrastructure bills would go a ways toward that goal. Spend our limited money where it will do the most good.

 

[Tez3]

Some may feel China has already won.
http://olympics.yardbarker.com/blog...ceremony_uniforms_were_made_in_china/11206375

 

[Sukerkin]

China's not been called the Sleeping Dragon for nothing. It has the man-power and resources to set it's sights on pretty much whatever goal it desires. It is only it's political and cultural history that have meant that it has not, so far, had an expansionist mentality. If the Dragon awakes and decides it would like a bit more of the world under it's direct auspices then there is relatively little, that is not potentially catastrophic, that can be done to induce it to go back to sleep.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

How do you spell paranoia?

The same way you do.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I don't think we need to increase the size of our navy. It is already the largest in the world and it is one area China is no where close to us in readyness and fire power. Also, increasing the navy is also very expensive. We can use that money elsewhere with better effects. The best way to counteract china's influence is stabalize and increase our economy. Jobs and infrastructure bills would go a ways toward that goal. Spend our limited money where it will do the most good.

For those who pay attention to such things (me, for example), it has become clear that we are responding to the Chinese threat. We're re-aligning our forces in the East. Co-incident with an agreement to move many of our troops out of Okinawa over the next decade, we're moving troops into other areas in the Far East and negotiating SOFA with various nations such the Philippines (where we once were before being kicked out), Australia, and other locations, plus we're expanding our presence in Guam quite a bit. It's not so much a growth of our Navy as a shifting of our resources.

I do not see how stabilizing our economy will affect China's desire to grab up disputed island resources in the Philippines, near Vietnam, and near Japan. They want these islands for their mineral, oil, and fishing resources, which have nothing to do with our economy. Their current belligerent stance with India likewise has nothing to do with our economy.

This is very similar to the behavior of Japan before she entered the war. The various imperialist nations had sewn her in, denied her precious resources, and she wanted to be as imperialist as the Western powers. She wanted a seat at the table. Now China is doing the same thing, but writ large.

 

[celtic_crippler]

How do you spell paranoia?

History is rife with dead who chose to ignore threats, from Pearl Harbor to 9/11, warning signs went overlooked or unaddressed resulting in massive loss of life.

 

[rickster]

Over the millneum Japan and China had always "see-sawed" control over the surrounding Asiatic peoples

It is "China's Turn" again

 

[Tez3]

What America should be careful about is that countries under it's 'umbrella' don't thumb their noses at China in the belief that if China reacts America will defend them. The Phillipines has been quite hostile to China which may well be justified but I think they are assuming they can be aggressive without any consquences because America will take the bullet for them. Without them thinking America will fight for them they may be more willing to negociate. It doesn't mean China isn't flexing it's muscles but quite a few countries are banking on America doing their fighting for them, it's up to Americans though ultimately whether they will go to war or not.

 

[granfire]

What America should be careful about is that countries under it's 'umbrella' don't thumb their noses at China in the belief that if China reacts America will defend them. The Phillipines has been quite hostile to China which may well be justified but I think they are assuming they can be aggressive without any consquences because America will take the bullet for them. Without them thinking America will fight for them they may be more willing to negociate. It doesn't mean China isn't flexing it's muscles but quite a few countries are banking on America doing their fighting for them, it's up to Americans though ultimately whether they will go to war or not.

I am guessing - being a bit cynical here - by the time the flat top makes it over there, there would not be much left of whomever, should China decide to get serious.
Like they put it in MASH: 'as if the country sprung a leak'

 

[rickster]

What America should be careful about is that countries under it's 'umbrella' don't thumb their noses at China in the belief that if China reacts America will defend them. The Phillipines has been quite hostile to China which may well be justified but I think they are assuming they can be aggressive without any consquences because America will take the bullet for them. Without them thinking America will fight for them they may be more willing to negociate. It doesn't mean China isn't flexing it's muscles but quite a few countries are banking on America doing their fighting for them, it's up to Americans though ultimately whether they will go to war or not.

It is never up to Americans to go to war or not

It was always up to American politicians