The x in Kenpo

[mj-hi-yah]

"double fist" (for lack of a better term) up and out. It's meant to be a defense against a hammer fist. The block will either hit the arm just above or just below the elbow. According the my instuctor, its from the polynesian background of the kempo arts as opposed to the chinese influences.

Hi,

Thanks for your answer - this is what I call helpful! Please don't worry about response time...I appreciate your effort. I can see what you are saying, have applied this type of block against a club attack at the wrist though, (and have had it applied to me) and I can tell it works.

"Double fist" is a fine term... call it what you will, you are indeed correct!

Please tell your instructor thanks for the explanation as well.

See ya later,
MJ

 

[mj-hi-yah]

We use the term open ended triangle,Sean

Sean thanks for the term. I found this interesting link that gives a very clear explanation of the open ended triangle and in the second paragraph there is a reference to the cross block in Obstructing the Storm as an OET (open ended triangle).

http://www.stormkenpo.com/openend_traingles.htm

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Hey there,

This form is really starting to shape up nicely and is finally flowing. I got some great ideas for the beginning of the form (where I was trying to demonstrate basics) today from of all places watching Sophisticated Basics. Has everyone seen it? It's great! I'm not sure how I got along without it. I only I wish I'd seen it sooner. Les, I saw the x in the video 10:30/ 4:30 by 7:30/1:30 it was helpful to actually see it illustrated, and I also got some inspiration for the applications of the more complicated mechanisims of the x block, double fist or open ended triangle (I'm still not exactly sure what the proper terminology should be) I think when I give the explanation for the form I may just use them all . At any rate, now I think all I need is for someone to please tell me to stop messing with it! :armed:

Thanks for all of your input! :asian:

It is much appreciated!

MJ

 

[mj-hi-yah]

I have a question about something in Universal Set I. In this set we begin by stepping our right leg out toward 3:00 as we cross our arms over our head (palms facing out and crossed just below the wrists) forming four open ended triangles. It was explained to me that these four triangles represent knowledge coming from all four directions north, south, east and west. Can anyone confirm this meaning or elaborate on it? Thanks!:asian:

 

[Touch Of Death]

I have a question about something in Universal Set I. In this set we begin by stepping our right leg out toward 3:00 as we cross our arms over our head (palms facing out and crossed just below the wrists) forming four open ended triangles. It was explained to me that these four triangles represent knowledge coming from all four directions north, south, east and west. Can anyone confirm this meaning or elaborate on it? Thanks!:asian:

Universal wha?... huh? I think that would be a question for another blackbelt in your particular branch of Kenpo I'm afraid... Or wait a second "Doc" would know the answer to this question, I'll wager. :asian:
Sean

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Universal wha?... huh? I think that would be a question for another blackbelt in your particular branch of Kenpo I'm afraid... Or wait a second "Doc" would know the answer to this question, I'll wager. :asian:

:uhyeah: LOL you're not familiar with this set? Well... it's a great exercise in control. Thanks anyway Sean! No thanks on the wager, maybe just a pinkie bet, learning not to wager on anything Doc have might say, especially the Lakers did you happen to catch their last game? :wink2:

 

[Touch Of Death]

Alas no; however, When doing an ex block I would make sure one of your arms is a solid basic and the other a support if not also a solid basic. what do you think?
Sean

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Alas no; however, When doing an ex block I would make sure one of your arms is a solid basic and the other a support if not also a solid basic. what do you think?

Sean

In the case of the upward cross block as in Obstructing the Storm...I consider both arms to be engaging in an active block they work together to form a trap (open ended triangle to trap the wrist) but then must transition into the next movement independently of each other (the right hand grabs their wrist as the left forearm simultaneously strikes their left elbow as you are stepping to 1:00 with the left leg into a neutral bow.

Also I know there are all sorts of variations on Star Block. In the version I was taught when the two hands work together in Star Block they cross forming an up block in an x above your head and for a pushdown block they are crossed at the wrists as well. In both cases I consider both arms (hands for the pushdowns) to be in a solid basic.:idunno: It's just how I think of it... :asian:

 

[Touch Of Death]

In the case of the upward cross block as in Obstructing the Storm...I consider both arms to be engaging in an active block they work together to form a trap (open ended triangle to trap the wrist) but then must transition into the next movement independently of each other (the right hand grabs their wrist as the left forearm simultaneously strikes their left elbow as you are stepping to 1:00 with the left leg into a neutral bow.

Also I know there are all sorts of variations on Star Block. In the version I was taught when the two hands work together in Star Block they cross forming an up block in an x above your head and for a pushdown block they are crossed at the wrists as well. In both cases I consider both arms (hands for the pushdowns) to be in a solid basic.:idunno: It's just how I think of it... :asian:

Actualy I would have the right upward block preceeding the left upward to deal with the possible faliure of on or the other to insure the club direction to the right. The alternative is to your head; therefor, the right should be dominant in this case. :asian:
Sean

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Actualy I would have the right upward block preceeding the left upward to deal with the possible faliure of on or the other to insure the club direction to the right. The alternative is to your head; therefor, the right should be dominant in this case. :asian:
Sean

I'll play with it...see if I can prove your theory (hopefully I don't take a head shot in trying )...sounds reasonable though as the right is responsible for grabbing and controlling the wrist. Also I suppose, as you say if the right block fails than your opponent could contour down your left arm with the strike...I can live with that.:asian:

 

[Doc]

Actualy I would have the right upward block preceeding the left upward to ... :asian:
Sean

I have no knowledge of the term "Universal" Set. (But then there is a bunch of stuff in other interpretations I don't know). As far as the description of "4 open ended triangles," I only visualize 3, (but I'm running this Kobe Bryant clip in my head right now).

With regard to the execution of the so-called "X" or "wedge" block, in my kenpo understanding, it is not so much a "double" block as it is a primary block and a secondary trapping mechanisms. The two hands are not executed simultaneously but are Mora Beat timed.

The "Star Block" is actually a basic blocking exercise set lifted by Parker directly from Grandmaster Ark Wong teachings of Five Animal/Splashing Hands. The name was changed to "Star Block" when it was drawn and the 5 basics blocks were stacked on top of each other and gave the appearance of the points of a 5 point star. The actual set is missing indexes, alignments, and additional "blocks" the way I was taught.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

I have no knowledge of the term "Universal" Set. (But then there is a bunch of stuff in other interpretations I don't know). As far as the description of "4 open ended triangles," I only visualize 3, (but I'm running this Kobe Bryant clip in my head right now).

Universal Set is an interesting set that we learn requiring balance and coordination and patience. We learn it sometime before blue belt level, but I really have no idea of the origin. I was figuring that the description of the four triangles (at each opening of the "X") are more symbolic than functional.
BTW oh it's KOBE lol...and what a shot!! :xtrmshock
Sean...told you I wouldn't like that bet...I'll take my pinkie back now please

With regard to the execution of the so-called "X" or "wedge" block, in my kenpo understanding, it is not so much a "double" block as it is a primary block and a secondary trapping mechanisms. The two hands are not executed simultaneously but are Mora Beat timed.

Ok so I'll think block/trap from now on...thank you ...

The "Star Block" is actually a basic blocking exercise set lifted by Parker directly from Grandmaster Ark Wong teachings of Five Animal/Splashing Hands. The name was changed to "Star Block" when it was drawn and the 5 basics blocks were stacked on top of each other and gave the appearance of the points of a 5 point star.

:ultracool

The actual set is missing indexes, alignments, and additional "blocks" the way I was taught.

Are you saying that the original way you were taught is missing things you'd like to see in it today?



Respectfully,
MJ :asian:

 

[Doc]

... Are you saying that the original way you were taught is missing things you'd like to see in it today?

Respectfully,
MJ :asian:

Well actually no. All those things are in it when I teach. What others have, don't have, want, don't want is up to them. My understanding includes much more than the 5 simple blocks taught in the commercial version. That version actually contains some very good imformation, if you have a teacher to decipher it, but I've never seen anyone who understood the angles, alignments, or indexes required to get them there. When done correctly a simple block should becomes immovable against its line of reisstence while protecting its assigned "zone of protection." Most are still thrusting an inward block like a punch. Nothing could be more incorrect.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Sean...told you I wouldn't like that bet...I'll take my pinkie back now please
Ok so I'll think block/trap from now on...thank you ...
:ultracool

Respectfully,
MJ :asian:

when you do your form, try to do the right upward like a foward bow and shift to a horse stance when you bring up the left. It will look most cool. You would have won the bet so you should have taken it. :asian:
Sean

 

[Doc]

when you do your form, try to do the right upward like a foward bow and shift to a horse stance when you bring up the left. It will look most cool. You would have won the bet so you should have taken it. :asian:
Sean

Not exactly sure anout any form, but my understanding is both are done from a neutral bow with the rear executing first. - Especially in techniques like "Obstructing The Storm."

 

[Touch Of Death]

Not exactly sure anout any form, but my understanding is both are done from a neutral bow with the rear executing first. - Especially in techniques like "Obstructing The Storm."

I was in short III mode just now, but I'm sure you are correct. I was trying be cosmetic. :asian:
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

Not exactly sure anout any form, but my understanding is both are done from a neutral bow with the rear executing first. - Especially in techniques like "Obstructing The Storm."

Wait a sec, now I'm not so sure you are right. (as I do it in the air) whats wrong with backing up your dominant block with a forward bow? That would be like reverse punching without a foward bow; however I would shift into a neutral for proper angles once my left came into play.
Sean

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Well actually no. All those things are in it when I teach. What others have, don't have, want, don't want is up to them.

:supcool:

My understanding includes much more than the 5 simple blocks taught in the commercial version. That version actually contains some very good imformation, if you have a teacher to decipher it, but I've never seen anyone who understood the angles, alignments, or indexes required to get them there. When done correctly a simple block should becomes immovable against its line of reisstence while protecting its assigned "zone of protection." Most are still thrusting an inward block like a punch. Nothing could be more incorrect.

Sounds like the Rock Dude from the Fantastic Five...remember them? So this, the idea of an immovable block, is most interesting. :idea: Can we tackle that another day?

Respectfully,
MJ :asian:

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Wait a sec, now I'm not so sure you are right. (as I do it in the air) whats wrong with backing up your dominant block with a forward bow? That would be like reverse punching without a foward bow; however I would shift into a neutral for proper angles once my left came into play.
Sean

Okay I need a ruling here...:hammer:

 

[mhouse]

MJ,

I was thinking back on this thread. Now that you have your black belt, how about sharing your form with us? I'd be really interested to see/read it. Especially since the forms I have in Shaolin Kenpo have few forms based on the X in kenpo. Although, I may have some questions about the terminology used in American Kenpo.

Thanks!