The value of kata

[newGuy12]

Is kata a waste of time? I say no, and I wish to try to explain why. Many people may wonder why we practice the kata. Maybe they see no other reason except that it has been done that way for a long time, and so we will all do it now, and that is the end of it. There is no reason to discuss it, because that is how it is done. And to question this is to show great disrespect!

Now, some people question this anyway, and that is understandable. I myself wonder about these things. Is is a waste of training time? I say, "That depends".

Oh? What do I mean? Sometimes kata is worthwhile, sometimes it is not so beneficial? Yes. Let me explain, please...

Okay, if the kata is just practiced as a set of motions, with no understanding of what those motions mean, then it seems a bit empty. But that is not the true kata practice. No. The movements all have combative meaning. These meanings can be very profound, and to learn the meanings (and practice them) has good benefit for actual self defense.

Now, you may say, "Yes, but that pales compared to sparring, where you practice against a resistive opponent, one that is not compliant!" I grant you that. However, once the meanings of the motions are known (either through trying to interpret them yourself or availing yourself of some other resource --> say, Abernathy! --> then, the practice changes. You then are reviewing these profound techniques as you practice the kata.

Surely no one will say that you ONLY practice with a partner, only doing live drills. No. We all from time to time practice by ourselves, with no sparring parter. This is where kata comes in.

You see, there is a misunderstanding. There is disagreement that gives me displeasure to see. I wish to make put this to rest, to make it clear that kata is valuable.

And please, when I refer to kata, I refer to what EVERYONE agrees as kata. Not a combination of punches that are made up by you. No. What I mean is the set of motions one would do at a tournament. THAT is what I mean by 'kata' in this discussion.

 

[14 Kempo]

Is kata a waste of time?

I believe that kata done by those with a closed mind is a waste of time. I will agree that some of the Kempo kata that I have could be seen as a waste of time, however, all the Kung Fu kata that I've seen thus far has many, many applications throughout. We are encouraged to take movements from the forms and work with them, discover what the movements are and how they apply to self defense, it is eye-opening to say the least.

Part of the problem is the teacher, it's not particularly their fault, might be that thier teacher didn't show them, cause they were holding back or they weren't shown by their instructor, so on and so forth. The issue with some higher ranked Kempo forms is that they are made up, mostly certain techniques thrown together, which is fine, but without thought to transitions.

If a good form is taught and practiced correctly, it is definately worth the effort, if for no other reason than to build strength, stamina, skill and movement. Many students are given one application for a specific movement, if at all. In all honesty there are an unlimited number of applications for most movements. Yes, the movements may vary slighty, not be the exact, identical movement, but it is there if you open your mind, investigate and work with it. This is how I am trained now, not how I was trained just 6 months ago ... my mind has been opened and it is utterly amazing what can be found.

My last school talked about "opening the box", the mind, but we were basically then told, not in so many words, to not go outside the circle ... LOL ... where I am now, I am taught to open the box and discover on my own. I may ask a question with regards to a movement and may be shown 5 or 6 possible applications for it, this will then trigger me to come up with 2 or 3 more on my own. That's what I mean about opening the mind and investigating.

This does become easier as a person moves up in rank and is more understanding of the concepts and theories behind the art being practiced.

Hope that is understandable, as the saying goes, "easier said than written" ... LOL

Hey, when I started my response, only the question was raised, no explanation ... LOL ... that's OK, I'll leave my view.

 

[Andrew Green]

If you like kata, do it. If not, don't. It doesn't need defended anymore then countless other activities people enjoy...

 

[Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu]

Perhaps one of the unfortunates of this debate is that several martial artists disagree as to what the definition of a kata is. Some say that a kata is a Japanese form such as Heian or Tekki. Some will say that any set of movements strung together ie. boxing combinations, Muay Thai combination etc. could be called a kata.

I'm not here to argue which one is right for fear of getting too off topic which I'm sure I'm becoming notorious for!

I personally that kata has much value. For many martial arts, much of the tradition and history of the art is found in the kata. I believe that the kata in my style are an encyclopedia of movements to be studied and understood but not to be considered the 'be all end all'. I absolutely believe that free sparring is a necessity when it comes to martial art, in my opinion that helps us to understand the martial. In my opinion kata allow us to keep sight of the art aspect while also helping us understand the martial.

All my personal opinion of course!

Cheers!
​

 

[Danny T]

If you like kata, do it. If not, don't. It doesn't need defended anymore then countless other activities people enjoy...

Got to agree with this but will add:
Doing Kata or forms for the sake of doing them once you know them(unless you simply enjoy it) can be a waste of training time in my opinion. However, taking the movements apart and studying what is available within the movements and transitions are of 'Great' value. I feel there is a vast difference in doing Kata vs studing kata.

In my limited knowledge of other's katas and their training, only from what I have experienced I feel there is very little study of what is available within the forms. Most only experience the most obvious and never learn to see or understand the implied aspects. Hence, the many who have a distain for forms or katas.


Danny T

 

[Nomad]

Sparring is a battle against another person. Kata is a battle against yourself (this is even taking out the many applications of kata sequences). Can you control the first without the second? Possibly, using different training methods, but few have the innate beauty of kata, or develop the mental and physical focus of traditional kata.

A kata done well is art. Sparring rarely reaches anywhere near this level.

IMO, people who think kata are "stupid" have never been told or understood what they're actually doing and why.

 

[Andrew Green]

A kata done well is art. Sparring rarely reaches anywhere near this level.

IMO, people who think kata are "stupid" have never been told or understood what they're actually doing and why.

I might say the same about people that think sparring is shallow in comparison

 

[terryl965]

KATA POOMSAE OR FORMS are all worthless and we all know that, so please can we give it a rest.

Now for something more realistic Kata are the backbone to the ancient ART and will deliver what you put into them no effort no SD no time no understanding No opened mind well you all get the picture right. For the last time Kata Poomsae or fprms have there place if you want it to be.

 

[digitalronin]

katas present the martial playbook, but without field practice, you have little hope of winning.

 

[Andrew Green]

KATA POOMSAE OR FORMS are all worthless and we all know that, so please can we give it a rest.

Now for something more realistic Kata are the backbone to the ancient ART and will deliver what you put into them no effort no SD no time no understanding No opened mind well you all get the picture right. For the last time Kata Poomsae or fprms have there place if you want it to be.

Very few people will claim kata are worthless, at least not unless there is a objective in mind. If the objective is something like boxing or MMA, then kata are not a good training method.

However, that is not to say they are worthless, just not suited to that task. A hammer is not a good tool because it sucks when you want to weld something, just sucks for that task.

Why some people seem to want to claim kata are the best training method for everything anyone could possibly want is beyond me, it isn't. It is a fairly specific one, used for fairly specific purposes.

 

[Tez3]

Andrew, (sorry about this people) is there a picture or something at the end of your posts? All I get is a box with a little red x in it which usually means there's a photo there. Just wondered if I was missing something.

 

[Andrew Green]

My sig image

 

[terryl965]

Very few people will claim kata are worthless, at least not unless there is a objective in mind. If the objective is something like boxing or MMA, then kata are not a good training method.

However, that is not to say they are worthless, just not suited to that task. A hammer is not a good tool because it sucks when you want to weld something, just sucks for that task.

Why some people seem to want to claim kata are the best training method for everything anyone could possibly want is beyond me, it isn't. It is a fairly specific one, used for fairly specific purposes.

Andrew here is my point Kata's are what each person makes of them for me it helps with my training. I find value out of it, some other people do not and that is fine but when people tell me they are worthless all the time and try to compare them to a boxer than it kinda of upsets me. I know professional boxer that did very little to be able to defend themselfs in a street stituation. I'm just getting tired of all these stuff thats all.

 

[zDom]

Your mileage may vary, but I'm pretty sure that practicing poomsea was one of the things (among many others) that made me a better fighter.

(shrug)

 

[Big Don]

I know it isn't a waste of time, but, I still hate it.
I look at it as a requirement, something I have to learn and become proficient at so I will pass when I test and so I will be able to teach it later.

 

[still learning]

Hello, I know? NOT me again? ....it's your choice to believe what you want to believe.

To learn to fight? ...is to fight to learn....the more real....the more you learn.

Joe Lewis...went to Okinawa to learn karate and earn a black belt...he did it in 7 months...not because of Kata's....but because he was able to defeat all the black belts in contact fighting. He learn thru fighting.

Kata's refer to a set of movements made by early karate masters as there way to train one self. a concise and exact sets with names.

They had drills and other training methods besides kata's. There is a difference's when we do drills and when we do Kata training.

Aloha.....

 

[newGuy12]

'still_learning'! I see you are on the board and are replying to this thread!

I respect you very much and thank you for all of the help that you have given me as I get back into practice. Please watch this video, which shows a man from the UK demonstrating bunkai for a shotokan form:

Also, here we see how vigorous the practice can be with a partner, practicing bunkai:

And, one more, this one is quite long. You will see... is the rising x block a block? Or, is it an escape from a double wrist grab?

Also, are multiple high blocks while stepping forward successive blocks OR... can it be a forearm strike to the neck???

You see how much more aggressive these motions are with these interpretations! One would not typically use these in sparring (forearm strike to the neck) as it is too dangerous for your partner!

Much Respect,


Robert Witten

 

[newGuy12]

Kata's refer to a set of movements made by early karate masters as there way to train one self. a concise and exact sets with names.

They had drills and other training methods besides kata's. There is a difference's when we do drills and when we do Kata training.

Aloha.....

YES!

Yes, katas are made by Master Instructors, and they are motions that are performed in the tournaments. These are what I mean when I use the word kata. Yes!

But --> you see, there is more to them than meets the eye. There is more. A high block is NOT just a high block. No. It is ALSO a forearm strike to the neck. The bunkai that the Man from the UK exposes shows this to us.

This is why I am excited to investigate this kata at more depth.

 

[newGuy12]

Aloha to 'still_learning'...

I have no desire to start an argument. You are more accomplished than I am in Martial Arts. I respect you greatly. I simply wish to make clear that I believe that these kata (remember, I say "kata" means what YOU say it means, that is what I am referring to) --> they have DEEP meaning with interesting motions.

Yes, we must freespar, and perhaps do woofing and other training, but, you see, it is different today. It is not as it was some 25 years ago. Today, the deeper meanings of these kata are being brought out into the open for all to see.

Aloha!

 

[still learning]

Hello, My daughter and I was talking about there High school wrestling training. She mention they start with condition drills than next week they will go into the ground floor workouts.

She mentions she learns quicker when they go thru the actual movements or by doing them for real. Full body contact using muscles and mind together. (she has NO experience in any Kata training, nor is there for wrestling in High school) (15 years old).

Kata does not give the real feelings and body contact that you get from when you actual make contact. This actual contact actions is remember in the brain and memory in a very solid way.

just like a punches in the air...it has it own feeling to it....but when punching a bag...a different feeling to it....when actual punching a real body or face...again a different feeling to it (body has hard and soft places and uneven too...plus it can be moving around too.

When training...it seems the more real...the better the memory! (real meaning contact).

One can practice going thru motions over and over in a precise manner like a kata.......When it is for real? the lessons is different!

Baseball...one can swing a bat hundreds of times....when for real againist a ball being thrown...it is different feeling.....facing a pitcher and watching for the ball to be thrown and the timimg to swing...high pitch, low pitch...all in spit seconds.....real practice is different is different than practicing in the air by yourself............

Aloha